Extreme Push Hands Championship

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
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[QUOTE=Violent Designs;1042242]This is awesome:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=HUJ_VKiz6No[/QUOTE]

Hi VD: Yes, it is awesome.. some well-trained skills, and understanding.. it is my belief and hope that Taijiquan can and will achieve and surpass that level of play.. i hope Master Scrima can keep this format going and evolving.. there is no reason that players can’t evolve to the point of Chin Na executed ‘to display the skill’, without expressing the Fa and concluding damage.. of course, this relies on the oponent’s respect of the technique.. but, the Extreme Push-hands event is the ‘first step’ of that ‘thousand mile journey’..

There was lots of very open discussion about the direction of this sort of event and the liabilities and technicalities.. Master Scrima couldn’t bring in mats, that would qualify the event as ‘fighting’ to be sanctioned by the state, and the venue rejected that.. to the credit of the competitors, they agreed to continue, and.. if you watch some of hard landings, there is little or no padding under that carpet.. there were some tough takedowns, and great sportsmanship..

I’m gonna talk out of school, here, and.. i hope no one is offended.. The Extreme Push-hands event put on by Master Scrima, was largely at his personal expense, he opened everything up to everybody, basicly free of charge.. Nick very graciously covered expenses for judges, referees, and visiting dignitaries.. we tried different rule combinations, time limits, legal/illeagal manuevers, etc.. and, it was an impressive group of people: competitors, judges, refs, timekeepers, scorekeepers, and all the help that goes into one of these events, that dedicated themselves and this event to advancing Taijiquan toward its formerly respected place in CMA..

Be well..

most of the people that showed-up were there because they believe in something more than the ‘Silk Pajama Guys and Gals’ pretending to ‘fight’..

42

Hey Bob,

I"m going to speak for myself here and say the direction of this type of event is really not what allured me into the Chinese arts and I don’t find it interesting in the least. More power to Nick and this seems to be the way many are heading along with BJJ and MMA. Traditional Chinese Martial arts seem to be on the decline these days which is too bad.

Just to illustrate my point. Try to see Master Chan with his size and frame in one of these competitions (if he was a competitor). Just wouldn’t work.

Traditional Martial Arts trained gongs as did MC and as does our Bagua and many others. Strike fast and sure and don’t play around with wrestling or grappling if at all possible. While Shuai Jiao has merit and application it’s just not for some people.

I think this is a wrong direction but that’s just me.

Oh, one other thing. People also seem to be on the band wagon that those who practice in Traditional Chinese garb (the so called Silk Pajama) are less than martial artists. I assure all that this is not the case. Just take a flight over the pond where this is worn commonly, daily, and by very accomplished martial artists.

Other than that, it’s good to see you back. Haven’t seen you for a while and thought you might have had issues with your back.

Best,

Bill

43

Greetings..

Traditional Martial Arts trained gongs as did MC and as does our Bagua and many others. Strike fast and sure and don’t play around with wrestling or grappling if at all possible. While Shuai Jiao has merit and application it’s just not for some people.

Hi Bill: 'If at all possible", is the key.. when it’s not possible, your life may depend on training and experience.. to be honest, how much actual ‘technique’ was trained at the temple? Sparring was brawling, and the few that could fight used other skills.. the essence of the the art, any art, is in a favorable conclusion, emphasis on ‘conclusion’.. i favor this direction because it’s not ‘judge oriented’, the ‘conclusion’ is evident..

That being said, i greatly favor the internal skills, but.. i also find those skills are not confined to the peculiar sensibilities of ‘styles’.. internal skills are built on principles that are applicable in any style, including stick, blade, and firearms.. sometimes, we need to trust our skills beyond our comfort level, just to see if they are ‘skills’, or beliefs..

Be well..

44

[QUOTE=TaiChiBob;1042492]Greetings..

to be honest, how much actual ‘technique’ was trained at the temple?

Be well..[/QUOTE]

Well, I did say Traditional… The temple was form training. Watered down CMA to fit most interested westerners and to stay in business and out of lawsuits. My post was more about how MC was trained in China than how it’s taught at the temple.

Best,

45

Greetings..

Oh, one other thing. People also seem to be on the band wagon that those who practice in Traditional Chinese garb (the so called Silk Pajama) are less than martial artists.

Hi Bill: I have no issue with what a person wears, my comment was directed toward the ‘stereotype’ some people have.. otherwise, it doesn’t matter whether the person is wearing silk pajamas or a toga, if they kick your butt your skills need to be re-evaluated. The discussions about styles or traditional or so many other petty issues are settled by results.. and, i happen to believe that Taijiquan is perfectly capable of superior results.

Be well..

46

[QUOTE=TaiChiBob;1042499]Greetings..

Hi Bill: I have no issue with what a person wears, my comment was directed toward the ‘stereotype’ some people have.. otherwise, it doesn’t matter whether the person is wearing silk pajamas or a toga, if they kick your butt your skills need to be re-evaluated. The discussions about styles or traditional or so many other petty issues are settled by results.. and, i happen to believe that Taijiquan is perfectly capable of superior results.

Be well..[/QUOTE]

Yes, you appear to have to fight the stigma of what Taiji has been come to known as here in the west and thus need to promote Taiji as a Martial art rather than a health exercise. I can understand that. However, one of the best quotes I’ve heard regarding Taiji recently from a man with a lifetime of experience and one I consider to be at an extremely high level was “Taiji is about self cultivation”.

In my (our) day I remember the quote “there’s always someone better” which is a very valid statement and goes in step with the above quote about self cultivation. It was not so much about fighting or proving I could fight but the beauty of the art and the science of the “gong”, at least for me. TCMA has such incredible theories and “gongs” it seems such a waste to let it go. I mean, if we need protection a .357 magnum or a multitude of other weapons will do just fine. Do you plan to do extreme push hands in your 70s or 80s? Did Ma Yueh Liang do extreme push hands? Will EPH give you superior and radiant health into your 90s?

I’m not trying to come down on this, I’m just trying to understand the direction, the rational.

Best,

47

[QUOTE=woliveri;1042509]I’m not trying to come down on this, I’m just trying to understand the direction, the rational. [/QUOTE]

The rational is that some people want to do what actually works against a resisting opponent… and the fact is you don’t always have your gun and/or don’t always have the option of using it.

48

[QUOTE=woliveri;1042487]

Just to illustrate my point. Try to see Master Chan with his size and frame in one of these competitions (if he was a competitor). Just wouldn’t work. [/QUOTE]

Then, more than likely, he would have had his ass handed to him in a for real encounter also.

Traditional Martial Arts trained gongs as did MC and as does our Bagua and many others. Strike fast and sure and don’t play around with wrestling or grappling if at all possible. While Shuai Jiao has merit and application it’s just not for some people.

Most physical confrontations will have some kind of grappling… especially if one of the opponents decides to grapple.

49

Greetings..

It was not so much about fighting or proving I could fight but the
beauty of the art and the science of the “gong”, at least for me. TCMA has such
incredible theories and “gongs” it seems such a waste to let it go.

Hi Bill: I don’t separate the practicality from the Art, i experience the Unity between the Art and the Martial.. yes, i finally made it back to the ‘60s’, and i plan on going as long as i can.. by the way, thanks for asking about the back issues, there’s still some ‘inconsistencies’ that need resolving from the surgery, but.. things are looking hopeful..

I don’t plan on getting into the cage anytime soon, but i do like to test my self, my Art.. it is disingenuous to discuss, "Taijiquan’ and not include its effectiveness as a Martial Art.. VD’s ‘awsome’ clip is very nice, sophisticated, and very well executed, but.. it’s another step in a very neat progression.. i look for the Art in Life, however it presents itself.. and, i do favor the old training ways, it tends to reveal the Art in places most people don’t even look.. i wonder how many classes today begin with a 2 mile run followed by 15-30 minutes in a horse stance with a staff on your thighs?.. okay, now we start class, LOL..

Be well..

50

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1042511]Then, more than likely, he would have had his ass handed to him in a for real encounter also.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, if he decided to grapple.

MC has more up his sleeve than most ppl know.

51

[QUOTE=woliveri;1042509]“Taiji is about self cultivation”.[/QUOTE]

As much as I like to help to protect the honor of the CMA, sometime I just find out that I have to agree with our MMA guy on this forum instead of to agree with our CMA guys. Nothing will bother me more than to see Taiji become an art of “health”, “performance”, and “spiritual development”'. With the attitude of “self cultivation”, Taiji will have no hope but will be laughted by MMA guys from generation to generation …

It’s sad that I have to align with intruder to beat up my own brother, very sad indeed.

[QUOTE=woliveri;1042487] While Shuai Jiao has merit and application it’s just not for some people.[/QUOTE]
SC is not designed for “self cultivation” and that’s for sure.

[QUOTE=woliveri;1042518]Yes, if he decided to grapple.[/QUOTE]
I’m sorry to say that sometime the choice will not be up to him.

52

Greetings..

Originally Posted by woliveri
“Taiji is about self cultivation”.

Do you suppose that ‘self-cultivation’ excludes cultivating self-defense? Some of my more spiritual moments were in intense training or finding that ‘something extra’ in a match that made the difference.. in pushing myself to ‘go there’..

Be well..

53

I don’t know guys… Let me ask this

Are there weight classes in these competitions? Are there gender classifications?

Can a 114 pound 50 year old woman whip a 250 pound 22 year old man in Extreme Push Hands?

If she could then that would inspire me to know more. Right now it looks like glorified wrestling (IMO).

People who inspire me are people like Ma Yueh Liang, Share K. Lew, That chen style chick you met Bob (Cui IIRC) .. pssst.. you forgot to send me those links.

I’m still not getting it.

54

[QUOTE=woliveri;1042560]I don’t know guys… Let me ask this

Are there weight classes in these competitions? Are there gender classifications?

Can a 114 pound 50 year old woman whip a 250 pound 22 year old man in Extreme Push Hands?

If she could then that would inspire me to know more. Right now it looks like glorified wrestling (IMO).

People who inspire me are people like Ma Yueh Liang, Share K. Lew, That chen style chick you met Bob (Cui IIRC) .. pssst.. you forgot to send me those links.

I’m still not getting it.[/QUOTE]

LOL @ glorified wrestling.

I see you are only inspired by the fake, theoretical, non-fighting stuff.

Because, the fact of the matter is, when it comes to any kind of physical unarmed combat, the bigger, stronger person will always have the advantage if skill is equal.

BTW, wrestling takes far more skill than any type martial art that mainly performs forms and two man drills.

55

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1042586]
I see you are only inspired by the fake, theoretical, non-fighting stuff.

[/QUOTE]

Wow… SKL and MYL are/were fake… LOL…

You see what I mean Bob?

56

Greetings..

You see what I mean Bob?

Hi Bill, and Knifefighter.. i think the differences are seeking to define themselves in opposition.. it is my hope that we might look for what is useful and favorable between the different perspectives, rather than find fault or conflict..

Be well..

57

[QUOTE=woliveri;1042621]Wow… SKL and MYL are/were fake… LOL…

You see what I mean Bob?[/QUOTE]

Pretty much, yep.

Put them against someone (even at their own weight) who had training and experience with actual full-contact fighting and they would get smoked.

58

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1042634]Pretty much, yep.

Put them against someone (even at their own weight) who had training and experience with actual full-contact fighting and they would get smoked.[/QUOTE]

Well we are going to have to agree that we disagree. I don’t care for your path, you don’t care for mine. So be it.

Good training to you.

Later

59

Greetings..

Well… that went well.. not so much really.. anyway, i’m not interested in speculating ‘what ifs’.. i train to improve my experiences of, and chances at Life, ALL of it..

Be well..

60

[QUOTE=TaiChiBob;1042658]Greetings..

Well… that went well.. not so much really..

Be well..[/QUOTE]

Well, what’d you expect when someone says SKL is fake? You yourself was knocked on your @ss by him as you have told me.

At that point the conversation ends.