It came to me the other day, how we could get a concentration of pushing hands skill in one place and all learn from each others methods. I live in the UK and i looked up the ‘Tai chi union of Great Britain’ web site and saw that they run pushing hands competitions (aimed mainly at Tai Chi) the rules of which are pretty restrictive as to what can be done and how one would score points, which could make a lesser contender beat a better one due to the fact the better one lifted his foot from the floor too much etc which can obviously happen when readjusting posture.
My solution to this was to run a Nationwide freestyle Pushing hands competition with no restrictive rules other than the obvious (to outrule headbutts, eye gouges or anything crude in nature) but to allow arm locking, rolling out of locks, feet to raise from the floor etc and to open this competition to all styles that practice push hands. I think this would be a great way that methods could be exchanged and to meet others of high levels of skill in different arts and to build relationships with other schools that practice pushing hands.
I would love to hear from any of you that this would be of interest to, If there is enough interest I will look to arrange this event. I think it would be great!
I strongly support a pushing-hands competition that utilizes the depth of Tai Chi.. i suggest that actual expression of FaJing be limited to only enough to demonstrate the effectivness of the technique.. I would like to see ChinNa introduced to the competition, strictly controlled so that no serious damage is inflicted upon the competitors, but allowed to add the practical application of Tai Chi’s martial roots… It would be interesting to see pushing-hands competitions where “tapping-out” could be as important as being “off-balance”.. This is typical for classes that i teach (we also train for standard tournament push-hands, too).
Now, practically speaking, too little respect is shown for good work in pushing hands, egos prevent us from stepping away from a truly good technique.. too often we use so many deceptive little tricks to maintain balance when the opponent has really done a good job.. sneaky use of holding on to the opponent to prevent the appearance of “unbalanced” in ways that look like technique (i do it too, sometimes).. but, using Tai Chi to manipulate an opponent into position to effect ChinNa, then applying only enough force to exhibit the brutal possibilities leaves little room for doubt as to where the point belongs.. Of course with no pads, punches and kicks should be executed and evaluated like point sparring.. similarly, those relaxed and flexible desciples may surprise you with their ability to slip the ChinNa application and reverse it on you.. In any case, tapping-out or off-balance, the audience would be much more likely to appreciate the depth of Tai Chi… Ultimately, i would like to see competitors acknowledge each other’s successful techniques with a polite bow before continuing (as long as i’m dreaming )
I think its time that Tai Chi emerged as a viable martial art without losing its true nature as an Internal discipline.. This is where the Judges and referees must be of a high caliber and relentless in their demand for adherence to Internal principles.. otherwise, yes, it will descend into the world of common wrestling..
“otherwise, yes, it will descend into the world of common wrestling..”
Tbob, you are correct, it would turn into a wrestling match, but if TC is so superior in skill then it should be allowed to develop. But in reality most TC practioners I have met have an over rated estimation of their own skill, and by not allowing wrestlers in to “do what they like” then they will feed their own fantasies that they are above the grapplers skill level, when the sad reality is they are nowhere near their ability. So I really do understand where you are coming from but I think if we did have a “free for all” method of push hands that means no restrictions for the grappler to apply his art, they would come away with the trophies, this would force the TC practioner to re-evaulate his own methods and seek out a good TC teacher who can deal with grapplers using TC skill, They do exist!!
If they did allow the “common wrestlers” in, it would increase the skill level all around, for the danager is by keeping these “internal principles” we will end up with skilled push hands practioners who have no experience of feeling the skill of a wrestler. So if “internal principles” are to be kept then it is up to that individual to use them and not the oponent, since he should grapple if he so desires.
Taichi Bob, I agree that there should be Chin Na involved for sure, I also would not personally be aversed to wrestlers entering the competition if they could also push hands, I would not wish for a noble art like push hands to descend into an on the floor grappling comp after all we already have UFC for that! My thinking was that it would be i great way to get various systems and talented people together and of course to test ourselves.
If you add chin-na, you’ll be doing something very close to MMA…or at the very least, submission wrestling. Yeah, baby! Well applied chin-na and shuai-chiao is going to have at least one of the players go to the ground. God help you if you have a TCC dude who knows his ground-fighting.
I say let the wrestlers, BJJers, Judoka, and sub-wrestlers participate. HeII, if your TCC is so good, they should be no match on the feet.
But seriously…I’ve been kicking this idea around for years. The way to keep the killers out of the fun and games is to have each competitor perform a short portion of form (5-7 minutes) and have them adjudicated by a panel of knowledgeable judges. If they can’t demonstrate TCC’s basics in solo form, they aren’t allowed to enter the push-hands.
If Tai Chi players want to compare their skills against MMA competitors there’s plenty of venues for that.. My interest is in comparing CIMA arts in a tournament setting..
My partner’s students and my own regularly “go at it”.. he teaches JKD, Muay Thai, NHB, Eskrima, Silat, so on and so on.. The results are mixed but promising.. CIMA is prevailing 35-40% of the time (even on the ground).. and we’re improving.. best results are early in the exchange before the “shooters” get a good grasp.. a quick deflection leading into moving ChinNa is quite effective.. (moving, as in don’t think that you can stand there and immobilize someone with a single technique)..
Merry Prankster, if you are just refering to standing grappling with take downs then breaking point awarded and back to standing, i can’t see any problem with that type of wrestling being involved, i think that would in fact be all the better, the more varied the methods that enter the better.
Shooter, i would like to keep it as open as possible, so therefore i would not insist that they could demonstrate Tai Chi forms…I don’t even practice Tai chi! but i do practice push hands.
I’d love to get and arrange this thing for real i just am not sure whether there enough people out there interested and where to find the competitors…any suggestions?
Still a bit irked about the “common wrestling,” comment. That’s really dismissive. But I’ll let it go.
Scythe, the hardest part you are going to have is advertisement. It may be hard to get people to come to something they are completely unfamiliar with. That is, you may get a lot of CIMA types but not much “cross-culturally.” I would try and reach specifically out to wrestling clubs and maybe even judo clubs. Word of mouth is the way tournaments grow and become succesful learning environments for all. You cannot expect a huge first event unless you are willing to advertise enormously for it. People will not come back if they didn’t like the event.
I have years as a competitor in many events, so I offer the things that would keep me coming back.
Were the rules clearly stated and uniformly enforced? If not, or they changed at the last minute, I’m not coming back, probably. Hold a rules meeting, and demonstrate clearly what is legal and what is not, and what the scoring situations are.
Run your event on time. If there is an empty mat/ring, it better not stay empty for long. Wrestlers and Judoka have this down pat. BJJers do not :D.
Are you severely limiting my style? For instance, if you have one of those push hands competitions that restrict foot movement, I’m going to get stomped. That’s not the way I employ my body. It’s not the way ANY wrestler or judoka or stand-up grappler employs their body for this sort of thing. I know that’s not what you’re talking about, it’s just an example.
Are ref/judges decisions final? They should be, with no appeals process or argument. You don’t have time to deal with that. People who repeatedly argue should be dealt with firmly, and promptly. They disrupt the whole event!
I appologize for the “common wrestling” remark.. it was not intended to be dismissive.. it was intended to be distinct from disciplined wrestling (ie: Judo, BJJ, Shootfighting, etc..)
The problem in an open format (which by the way there are already many), is that it would be difficult to compare skills from an “internal” perspective. Certainly, there should be takedowns, ChinNa, Fajing, medium contact, and foul body odors (one of my favorites ).. but, i am suggesting that it be kept largely in a CIMA context… Those intent on testing their skills against MMA have a wide variety of opportunities in other competitions.. What i am suggesting is that we have a venue to explore a broader range of internal principles in a CIMA format, a controlled format.. from this format i hope we could refine our teaching and learning skills such that at some time we could enter the MMA arena as contenders.. In general, most Tai Chi Schools couldn’t offer even a viable sparring partner for MMA players.. But, i sense a change in the Tai Chi community, a willingness to explore our Martial roots.. I’m merely suggesting we begin the journey with small steps rather than a leap into fray.
I do not intend to offend, it is not my nature.. if i do, it is usually a misunderstanding.. and, if i do intend to offend it will be clear..
I appreciate your point Tai Chi Bob, but if you keep things closed, you won’t be able to learn from those outside the scope of your own thought process. Open it, and see what happens! The worst is that people begin practicing their own principles to adjust to what they have seen and felt in real time.
MMA is a great example of how quickly things can evolve. First this “BJJ is the best thing,” then wrestlers came in to ground and pound once they learned to defend submissions, and now you’ve got strikers who can stay on their feet and get back up doing fine too. The improvement in fighter quality has been tremendous in the past decade.
Merry prankster: thanks for your views on running a good event i shall bear them in mind.
Laughing cow: The raising the foot thing is a crazy rule, you can still see if someone has been uprooted or if they are just resettling their balance if you allow the feet to be lifted.
What is your definition of push hands? I believe you can mix it up with in more or less any form through contact reflex starting from meeting of the arms and come under the title pushing hands. Standing grappling can be employed (as we do) and still fit into the format of pushing hands and if one is to have any success in this you will NEED to employ CIMA principles, leverage, joint popping and manipulation etc.
Tai chi Bob: I think that a skilled pushing hands exponent can mix it with MMA, but on the other hand a pushing hands competition is not the place for this as you have said there is many arenas where this could take place, but this is not to say that a Highly skilled pushing hands exponent would not be able to defend against MMA in that sort of competition.
I have wrestled with quite a few guys who practice BJJ and they have not managed to get me locked up because of the skills I have through pushing hands (the way we do it) This is not to say I could not brush up on applying the locks etc myself but I am confident of my ability to avoid getting locked up to submission in the majority of cases.
This is a great example–define uprooted? I mean, somebody might execute a hard head shuck and knock me off balance a little, but if I recover did they do it well enough?
Or is that the point-To not be knocked offbalance at all?
Merryprankster: Good point, the rules of the comp would have to be well defined before it went ahead. I am not sure as yet what the format to scoring points would be as in pushing hands/wrestling/grappling one quite often wil be knocked out of position and have to resettle. There are of course other instances where one would as we call it ‘invest in loss’ in that one would possibly take an armlock for instance and as it is applied one allows it on further than they should but then recovers through doing a sacrifice roll and then reversal, I don’t think one should be marked down in such an instance as it is skillfully taking a force and dealing with it. I think points should only be scored against each other in the case of true loss of balance, being thrown out of the area, being taken down or satisfactorily locked. the details of which would need to be defined.
My definition of uprooted is being thrown/lifted out of stance causing one to lose composure.
