This is a very good thread.
[url=http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=25344&page=1&pp=15]
Good thread
comments?
Greetings..
Having just been at Nick Scrimaâs Tournament in Orlando over the July 4th weekend, a number of questions have become apparent.. What is the state of Taiji as a martial art? Why are so many rules imposed on the pushing hands competitions? Is it possible to hold competitions where Qinna can be expressed but not fully executed? Are there enough qualified judges to let Taiji emerge as the combat art it is?
The Taiwan teamâs advanced mens competitor, Tun Ze Tun, withdrew from one of the most dynamic and expressive matches iâve seen because of the judges application of warnings leading toward a disqualification.. rather than be disqualified, the Taiwan coach pulled Tun from the match.. Now, hereâs the thing, these guys are the best of the best and were doing what they do.. we were witness to some outstanding Taiji combat and the competitors were eager to play at that level of intensity by returning to the starting position after each point.. although the ârulesâ may have suffered a bit as the intensity grew, the competitors were only interested in the play.. the judges continued to restrict and misapply the rules, breaking the flow and dynamics of world-class pushing.. i understand the need for rules, but when the competitors agree to move into the realm of real Taiji for the benefit testing their Taiji rather than who is better at âruleâ interpretation, it was disappointing to have the judges intervene.. My perspective of this event will likely be challenged on different levels, but you had to be there to see the potential..
Ther was quite an emotional response to this situation by many of the world class players in attendence.. a common cause resonated.. letâs have a tournament where we CAN put it all out there.. the competitors agree to the rules, Qinna is expressable but not fully executed, impact (without fajing) is permitted to the torso and limbs, leg boxing is permitted with âpushingâ kicks (not striking kicks).. and, qualified judges keep it real and as safe as possible.. injury is NOT the objective, but clear MA isâŚ
Taiji IS a martial art.. but, the current rule set for competition reduces it to a âpatty-cakesâ exhibition that leaves the rest of the martial arts world with the impression it is best suited for âpushingâ shopping carts.. It is time for Taiji to stop being the MA whipping boys (and girls, there were many gifted female competitors at the tourney)..
Be well..
Why not have fajing and real kicks? Just wear some protection. Or better yet, have different classes in regard to level of contact. Simple.
(we were witness to some outstanding Taiji combat)
Since when is pushing hands fighting?
If people want to compete in sparring matches or whatever one calls it, why equate pushing hands practice with that? Why not just directly compete in those venues provided ones skill level is up to the point where one really has taiji skill sets. why pretend
Almost all people that I have pushed with, here and some in Taiwan who enter into or view push hands in this manor tend to use a lot of force and movement over real inner skill. The higher the skill level the less to no rules needed because its not really possible to do a lot of things that the rules prevent one from doing.
There are some pushing hands formats that are well suited for submission wrestling competitions.
Greetings..
To wear gloves and protective gear restricts hand movement and the ability to execute Qinna by hand grasps.. so, to keep it close to real, eliminate protective gear but maintain a level of control that reduces the risk of severe injury..
Hereâs the thing, good pushers should be able to deal with what is presented.. but, the rules severely limit presentation of honest combat arts.. i would hope we could raise Taiji to a reasonable combat level within its own venue, of course anyone is welcome to play san shou.. what i am hoping for, is that we offer a similar situation within a purely Taiji format.. where the subtle nuances of Taiji can be explored in a more combat-like environment..
Almost all people that I have pushed with, here and some in Taiwan who enter into or view push hands in this manor tend to use a lot of force and movement over real inner skill. The higher the skill level the less to no rules needed because its not really possible to do a lot of things that the rules prevent one from doing.
Thatâs just it, there IS a lot of force, that is the nature of combat.. and, until we open up the competition to using most of our Taiji skills, we wonât know what really works.. we tend to hide behind rules because those subtle âinternalâ skills havenât been evolved in the competition world to a level capable of dealing with âforceâ.. if you have competed at the level where you see Waitzkin, Tun, Caulfield, Childress, etc.. you will know that there is still enormous internal skill at play.. Taiji as a combat art will likely have your oponent on the mat, why not let there be throws allowed in competition?
Be wellâŚ
I think your confused as to what is combat and what is competition.
Here are many capable people who do not compete in taiji.
(Thatâs just it, there IS a lot of force, that is the nature of combat.. and, until we open up the competition to using most of our Taiji skills, we wonât know what really works.. we tend to hide behind rules because those subtle âinternalâ skills havenât been evolved in the competition world to a level capable of dealing with âforceâ.)
I donât understand this statement, my thoughts are that if you can really understand and use the others force the amount of force doesnât matter its still force. Pushing is kind of a gentlemanâs way of testing skills, or developing skills not an indicator of ones fighting ability. Having true skill sets one can use them as needed not having true skill sets adding force, speed and movement to the mix will not help to develop them nor indicate usage of them.
http://www.geocities.com/meiyingsheng/story.html
an interesting story reflecting testing of skill
Again, that is the point.. to actually use these skills, regardless of the oponentâs level of force.. allow force to be expressed and see how well the skills deal with it.. although i understand and largely agree with your assessment, i am also troubled by the implication that the âgentlemanâs wayâ is just an excuse to avoid the real test of skill.. i do not confuse training with combat, but i fear we are losing some of the combat skills in favor of the âgentlemanâs wayâ.. i have witnessed and been party to many pushes that would appear to be external, but when engaged you still use all the skills.. speed is reoccurring topic in the classics, so is power.. both are necessary, it is the wise use of them that distinguishes Taiji..
Be well
push hands and combat
In my opinion, push hands as a practice is a very useful tool in polishing oneâs skills. However, as a competition, it developes very bad habits for real combat situations.
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the desire to win the competition clouds oneâs mind; in a real fight there are often multiple attackers, just concentrating in beating one will get you nowhere. And running away is sometimes the best solution and should be considered.
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there is no training of all the events that happens âpre-fightâ. There are lots of things going on before a real fight that severely alter the outcome of the fight.
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rules in a competition, no rules on the street.
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the constant rooting is only good in competitions, but in real fights one really needs to know how to move around the enemies. If your feet are stuck, basically you are dead.
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Weapons; the habit of letting someoneâs hand coming in so close to the body is dangerous. Most attackers will be carrying knives, beer bottles etc.
Hence we often see experienced Tai Chi practitioners either turning into floppy noodles, or so physical that it looks more like Sumo. Neither is beneficial. I believe there is so much more to being a good fighter than winning a competition in a rink, even if you allow very relaxed rules. It is just one aspect of fighting.
Cheers,
John
Greetings..
Fixed and restricted step push-hands competitions are steps on the way to moving step push-hands.. moving step is dynamic and quite useful in developing fighting skills.. now, to enhance that notion, i still suggest that the rules be further relaxed to account for throws and safe expressions of Qinna.. Of course push-hands useful for polishing oneâs skills, but then what? How does one apply those skills? We need a venue where Taiji fighting skills can be tested against other players of the same mind-set.. i do not suggest that we change the existing rules, only add an event that permits agreeable competitors to take it up another level.. Some of us have trained for many years utilizing many more techniques than are permitted in current competitions, we can speculate as to the usefulness of these tools but until we open Taiji competition up to a higher level of skill testing we just donât know..
Too often i hear the grumblings of people that only watch push-hands competitions and complain of âtoo much forceâ or âno internal skillsâ.. well, until you have been there and realize that all the skills are present and the force represents the likely levels you would see in the street, you just canât appreciate the value of this level of training or competing.. Moving-step push-hands requires mobile and adaptive rooting skills, it requires listening and sticking skills complicated by the movement.. and, if it seems that there are no Taiji skills being used, perhaps it is because we fail to train our students at this level.. imagine how profound it would be to see refined skills used at combat levels, but we wonât unless we set the stage for it.. If you havenât visited an Aikido school, i recommend it, they take each application to its conclusion, immobilization of the opponent.. I watched in awe as Josh Waitzkin and Chris Heintzman worked through Taiji applications in ground fighting at Nickâs tournament, and they pointed out the skills and techniques as they worked through attacks and escapes.. is it wise to confine Taiji applications to the âgentlemanâs wayâ? will true Taiji fighting skills survive if they are held to âpoliteâ rules?.. Again, i suggest that we bring Taiji to a level of combat effectiveness in training and in Taiji competitions.. then, maybe, we can take it to the MMA and regain some of the respect we have lost in the martial arts world.. I do not suggest that we abandon any of the existing Taiji wisdoms, only that we open it up to its natural potential..
Be well..
(we can speculate as to the usefulness of these tools but until we open Taiji competition up to a higher level of skill testing we just donât know..)
I know, there is no speculation in this. I said gentleman, meaning that the intent would be not to hurt the other. At first touch people should know the level of the person they are dealing with.
Its quite easy to injure or break something in push hands, more so if the person has any inner skill at all, but this is really not the point, at least in my own work.
(some of the respect we have lost in the martial arts world0
I politly suggest that the only real respect that matters is among other taiji people or masters. Any one practicing taiji should know what their level, limits and ablilities are in their art. If one is looking for respect from others it would seem that their focus is on the outer not really on the inner nature of the art.
Greetings..
I politly suggest that the only real respect that matters is among other taiji people or masters. Any one practicing taiji should know what their level, limits and ablilities are in their art. If one is looking for respect from others it would seem that their focus is on the outer not really on the inner nature of the art.
Even the respect of others within the cloistered halls of Taiji would be an external expression.. the respect i refer to is the situation where other Taiji people, other MA players, and the general public fail to see the unique nature of push-hands.. even the highly evolved intensity of the Taiwan version is called âsumoâ by some in Taiji circles, even some that have credentials.. while i know it to be every bit as skill laden/demanding as the âsoft stuffâ.. sensitivity at combat speed and power levels is a very demanding skill.. perhaps there are simply too few people capable of doing it, much less teaching it..
Their criticism is justified when Taiji players turn up their noses and comment that âTaiji is too deadlyâ, âTaiji has nothing to proveâ, âonly real Taiji players can understand the artâ, etc.. If there exists misunderstandings and misconceptions of Taiji shouldnât we take the responsibility to demonstrate Taijiâs full potential.. We like to call it a Martial Art, but offer little in the way of examples.. the âgentlemenâs wayâ is routinely criticized as a flimsy excuse for a âMartial Artâ, however.. i have seen it used effectively against sound external players.. but, when asked to bring it to the public no one will oblige.. are we so elitist that we try to keep secrets? I greatly admire Chris H. and his claims of internal arts as contributing to his success in the cage.. Our Art will suffer until we can soundly demonstrate its effectiveness.. and, that wont happen if we donât train it to its full potential..
Be well..
Why concern yourself with what Tuishou competition should or should not be?
The fact is that there are Sanshou and Sanda events that can be used.
Who cares if there are other styles there. If you can use Taijiquan effectively, then it would not matter.
This is the same argument that gets used when the judges apply the rules about too much power or striking illegal areas in light contact sparring. Having had that argument used on me as a judge many timesâŚI will give you my stock answer:
Donât like the rules and restrictions on the eventâŚget enough people to agree with you, develop an alternative, and change the rules.
Think that your fighting abilities were not given their due because of disqualification for power or other rule infractionsâŚGo do Sanshou or other full contact events.
I hear what you are sayingâŚbut the history is there.
Originally, when we tried to put in moving push hands competitions, tons of people were weirded out about it because all most schools did was fixed step. Even restricted step was a big leap forward for them.
The quality of the push hands seen is dependent on two thingsâŚFirst and obviously the quality of the competitors. Second, the quality of the judges and in particular the center judge.
Now, if the rules are written down then the judge canât change them. If all competitors in an event want to change the rules, then the judge canât change themâŚbut the promoter CAN. But, if you change them on the fly, you WILL have untrained judges - since there is no way they can know the rules.
Greetings..
What i am suggesting is that i believe we are clever enough to craft a set of rules for expressing more of Taijiâs skills.. Sanda, San Shou, etc. use gloves that compromise hand work, as in finger, hand and wrist Qinna.. TuiShou competition is great, i simply suggest that we develop another event within that framework for a higher level of Taiji combat skills.. it would be by agreement among the competitors if they choose that venue.. still expecting the event to have a depth of mutual respect between competitors.. i may be in the minority, here, but.. whenever someone locks me up with good Qinna i appreciate the art and yield the point, a lesson learned.. struggling to save a point is how injuries occur..
Perhaps i am just spitting into the wind.. it seems that most people are content with the current state of Taiji competitions.. We donât usually go to SanShou or Sanda because too few are trained that way.. if it became a Taiji event, then maybe more interest would be generated to revive its lost combat arts.. a robust Taiji pushing event might bridge the gap between competition combat dominated by external stylists and the gentle combat arts of Taiji.. or, maybe we could have a WuJi meditation competition.. which way do we go?
Be well..
Tai Chi for most people is an exercise to loosen up muscles and all joints.
There are many aspects of Tai Chi fighting methods.
If you take away fist punches, foot kicks and hand Qin Na, there are still bigger Qin Na with your forearms and body. There are also throws, tripping to fall or Shuai Die.
Granted most techniques started with forearm contact and then hand grab.
With the glove on, you may still do throws by pushing and using forearm or the whole arm to Chan or silk reeling. It would look like Shuai Jiao.
Kao with chest, hip may be. Elbow Zhou or Knee Kao may be too destructive.
No Tang Do or sudden jerking either.
Everything is in evolution.
For most people, move slowly and turn.
For most, it is an exercise.
For few, it is to develop outward or Peng Jing.
Locking shouldnât rely on the fingers. All of the taiji locks I have learned can be done with boxing gloves ⌠then there are always MMA gloves.
Push hands is fun and itâs a good way to learn and test to a point. But there is sticking hand, pushing hand AND hitting hand. You really need all three.
There is going to be a national Throwdown in Atlanta in Sept. for any southern internalists looking to test their stuff. Iâm probbaly going to make it barring any work-related travel.
As far as martial arts tournaments Iâm completely turned off by them now ⌠hours of forms then you go to do your sparring or push hands and thereâs a million things you canât do that you have to start throwing karate side kicks at each other just to âwinâ.
Honestly, thereâs plenty of opportunity to test these days. Those tournaments are more for kids who like to wear the uniforms and swing the swords ⌠let them get the ability, the agility, the discipline. Let them get used to competing with light contact and maybe 1 in 15 will grow beyond it, seak out some real martial art.
(to revive its lost combat arts)
I really disagree with this statement.
So many people these day equate combat with competition then question why there are no competitors in a given field to demonstrate the efficiency of an art form. There are many (combat) arts that do not compete, a number of south east Asian arts come to mind have they too lost their combative ability?
so in other words if one does not compete, or practicners of a style chose not to compete the art has lost its effectiveness?
There are many ways to test ones skills outside of competitions, if one is talking about interest in taiji, having real skill sets and being able to demo them to people interested usually draws people in.
the ability to move people with very little to no force is quite interesting, the ability to lead others into emptyness has very many uses beyound the obvious things mentioned.
Greetings..
bamboo_ leaf.. Then let us agree to disagree..
It is too easy to say things like that when people are asking for evidence..
the ability to move people with very little to no force is quite interesting
So, when a seasoned veteran of full-contact takes a fighting stance and says, âshow meâ.. better than 90% of the Taiji players canât.. and they have a whole host of reasons why.. conversely, ask the fighter to show his stuff and he likely will.. Almost every player and âMasterâ (4 notable exceptions) i have crossed hands with sets some kind situation or condition that is favorable to their style.. From my perspective, there are two kinds of push-hands.. 1) training and 2) fighting.. and, all the principles are evident in both..
Obscure arts that donât compete may be something as simple as lacking the funds to get where the competition is.. Taiji calls itself a âMartial Artâ but offers little evidence of actual combat effectiveness.. we should offer training at the combat level, like, say, other martial arts.. I recognize and respect ALL aspects of Taiji, health, meditation, philosophy, AND martial arts.. and, i am deeply interested in and train with dedication to find the âsoft powerâ of Taiji.. but, i personally feel that Taiji without the Martial aspect should be called Taiji-QiGong..
Push-hands training is an agreement between two people to abide by certain rules not generally accepted in martial circles.. so much of our training is useless in the current push-hands mind-set.. Competition takes you out of your comfortable local environment and compares skills with people you donât know.. what we end up with is a form(s) trained over many years without any real test of effectiveness.. it is this testing process that refines the art.. and, as has been said, a well trained player should be able to handle almost anything, so why not test that theory in the Taiji class environment before taking it to SanShou or Sanda?
Be well..
Good post, and I agree with that last comment.
The one difficulty that arises though is that when you set parameters, different folks may interpret them differently. In push hands, when you turn your apponant, is it OK to continue to press them and take them down?
I would think so. We agreed not to hit, to control each other. But if I can turn you and take you down thatâs great ⌠of course you help the guy up afterwards real friendly like and try again.
The frustrations I get is that Iâve entered chi sau events and had the ref tell me that my wave-like punching doesnât count, that it canât be pulled off in real combat ⌠yet I got disqualified 5 minutes earlier from âfree sparringâ for hitting the same exact guy with the same exact strike only I pulled it for chi sau.
Things like this get frustrating, which is why I like to just bring it to the most basic common denominator ⌠you do whatever you want to do and Iâll do the same and if you get overwhelmed tap⌠it just makes things so much easier and removes all the potential âI wouldâveâ or âI couldâve if onlyâ.
This is me personally. There is definitely a place for push hands and chi sau, but more for an in-class training excercise, a way to feel yourself in relation to another body. When you get comfortable and can do well in class, do some sparring with classmates. Then when youâre ready go out a little bit and compare.
(So, when a seasoned veteran of full-contact takes a fighting stance and says, âshow meâ.. better than 90% of the Taiji players canât.. and they have a whole host of reasons why.. conversely, ask the fighter to show his stuff and he likely will..)
really not much more to say on this, taiji has been and is a high level art meaning that very few really get to the point where it is still recognized as taiji and can use it. high level does not mean better just harder to achive, but once achived its quite remarkable 
If competition in a ring or event as you seem to suggest is equal to fighting I think is confusion. If one can not demonstrate taiji in a simple push hands setting whats the point of any other setting?
(Taiji calls itself a âMartial Artâ but offers little evidence of actual combat)
taiji does not exist in a vacuum, if one sees no evidence or finds none with in their practice or themselves maybe their practice is not quite correct. People know or should know its pretty self evident nothing to understand.
Guess I just need to stick with my taiji qiqung