A discussion of Tai Chi

Nei Jia: the Qigong and Taijiquan Forum Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts
21

Competitions, like training, are constrained by artificial parameters and can be just as poor a measure of ability as simply training forms. What results is, “You become good at competition!!” and nothing more!!

It is the ability to perceive clearly the danger and adapt to the changing circumstances of real-life circumstances that allow for a true test of abilities. It is not possible to truly do this without engaging in numerous “real” fights. Pretend fighting is never the same as true fighting!! The difficulty of training in MA has always been how to gain the most realistic experience with a minimum of risk to our safety. Most testing of skill involves a duel-like format which is not realistic. Most of us are more likely to find ourselves involved in a circumstance at home or in public where furniture and other people become environmental obstacles to be avoided. We are not likely to have the luxury of a 12-18 foot circle with no obstacles!

The secret then is not in the physical application of technique, and I am not negating its benefit, but in the mental application of principles!

There are psychological factors involved when we experience REAL danger that cannot be trained for without actually experiencing danger, but they can be prepared for. I worked with a Special Forces man (fought in Vietnam) many years ago. He participated in many of the super secret, across the boarder, activities in Laos and Cambodia! He used to laugh at the macho S.E.R.T. members of the prison where I worked. He told me that no one can predict how they will really behave in a real-life dangerous circumstance until it happens. He said those you thought would wet their pants stand and fight and the macho cry for their mama’s!! He said you don’t know how you will react until it REALLY happens no matter how well you are trained!. I don’t think anyone would say Special Forces don’t train for combat!! He also said that even an experienced fighter will react differently depending on each circumstance. He said that sometimes you stand and fight and sometimes you turn tail and run!!!

When engaging in self-defense it is important to distinguish between “defending” oneself and “defeating” the enemy. It is not always necessary to defeat the enemy, as is necessary in competition, only secure your safety. Pushing hands is a physical skill that demonstrates or manifests principles of Tao through physical action. The principles are actually psychological in nature and are applied and demonstrated physically. Psychological principles and their application are more significant than the physical presentation of them. Tai Chi should be practiced as physical action used to acquire, develop, train or teach these psychological principles!

I am reminded of a well known story concerning a Japanese Zen Master and hermit named Shoju (1642-1721). Shoju was teacher to Hakuin another well known Japanese Zen Master. On one occasion Shoju was invited to observe a training session for master swordsmen. The swordsmen voiced admiration for Shoju’s Zen, but questioned its practicality for swordsmen. Shoju invited the swordsmen to attack him and they obliged him, all attacking at once. Not one was able to strike Shoju but he was able to rap each one at least once on the head with his fan. Amazed and humbled by this demonstration the swordsmen asked Shoju his secret. Shoju replied, “If your eye is true and your mind unobstructed, there is nothing you cannot overcome, including a sword attack!!!”This is the true purpose of Tai Chi, not to overcoming adversaries, but oneself!! By mastering ourselves we master all!!!

22

Scott,

Well written and enjoyable stories you just shared. It is a joy for me to see you sharing your wisdom and experience as well as good humour here on the forums again. I’ve taken a break myself and to come back and see you here brought a smile to my face. Hope you are well.
Best to you in your endeavours and keep up the practice (something for all of us to remember).

Nexus/Ben

23

Hi Ben,

I have noticed you have not been around! I returned some 6-12 months ago i think, i can’t actually remember when, LOL!! Good to hear from you too!!

I look forward to interacting with you again. You may enjoy a recent interaction between TaiChiBob and I found here:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36113

LOL!!! But be sure you have alot of time, :eek:

Please let me know what you are up to and how you are doing when you get the time. I still have the same e-mail address!!

24

Scott Brown

I enjoyed your post and both agree and disagree with it.

I think you are right in that Taiji … internal martial arts … all martial arts really … should be the physical embodiment of inner principles, and these principles should flow over into all aspects of life. Personally, my life has never been so good since training with my master. The Hsing-I has made me more direct, not so shy to hit on girls or speak my mind at work. At the same time, my master’s E-Chuan is somewhat sneaky and I’ve learned to set the stage for certain things, almost politically. I can’t put a price value on this.

At the same time, regarding that monk, I doubt that was the first time he’s ever faced a sword attack. I doubt something like that could ever become routine, but I also doubt he was simply some dharma chanting individual who woke up one day and said … I think I can handle multiple sword attacks at once.

My point, I do agree with you that competition is not the end all and be all of martial arts. I myself have been trying to organize some matches with no gear and no rules and you’d be surprised how many “competitive” fighters aren’t interested if there’s no trophy or medal involved … no rules or refs … no gear.

At the same time, it can be dangerous to dismiss that sort of opportunity to test your skill against a skilled, trained stranger.

Yes, on the street their are obstacles (I look at them as evasive opertunities or potential impact weapons) but can one handle a one-on-one engagement? That is first … one skill set against another. However or wherever … it really needs to be done to progress as a martial artists in my opinion.

Regarding taiji and fighting … there is definitely a lot of good stuff in there. I just wonder why we don’t see more taiji guys out there doing something with it. It’s too easy to branch off as its own thing because of the nature of the style. But all fighters have their own method.

I’m friends with a street fighter (no formal training) who has come to understandiyielding and loves to circle and even utilizes a strange Hsing-I-like skip to close the distance … it lacks the power of Hsing-I stepping because it is too free floating, but it does close the distance unexpectingly well.

25

Greetings..

Scott: We concur in concept.. My suggestion is that while the “gentlemen’s way” of pushing-hands develops a profound depth of sensitivity and skill, those skills are largely untested in a more realistic environment.. note, i do not say street environment… that a more robust exchange of skills better sets one’s psychological and physical preparedness and hones one’s skills to a more useful level.. A useful analogy might be like building and fine tuning a rally race car (training).. testing it on local and familiar roads (current push-hands events).. then, taking it to more challenging and unfamiliar roads we find we cannot keep up with those that have trained on those roads.. It has been my experience that well trained “gentlemen” have difficulties in more robust environments, largely due to unfamiliarity.. we overcome “ourselves” by testing ourselves in evermore increasing levels of intensity.. it is a personal evolution.. the adversary is not the issue, personal growth is.. win or lose, we must learn..

Moving an oponent off balance is a useful skill, then what? Current push-hands events leave that question unanswered.. proper footwork, good balance and leverage, and a depth of training experience should allow for a reasonably safe take-down and decisive conclusion.. I have seen too many good “pushers” unable to conclude the technique because they were only taught to unbalance their oponent.. I think that if we introduced an event with something like Chen Village Rules, then more people would train toward that level of usefulness.. maybe then, more people would see the potential of Taiji as a realistic martial art and its popularity would increase.. The more people we can get interested in Taiji, the more we can teach its more subtle values, like, health, meditation, philosophy, WuDe, and realistic alternatives to hard violence.. the more people are introduced to principles of Tao, the greater the benefit to society and civilization.. it is rewarding to observe an external stylist playing with Taiji realize there are alternatives to “defeating the enemy”..

Psychological principles and their application are more significant than the physical presentation of them. Tai Chi should be practiced as physical action used to acquire, develop, train or teach these psychological principles!
Agreed.. and to develop those principles as useful under pressure, one must experience the pressure.. gradual increases of intensity expand our comfort level in dealing with what may appear as overwhelming odds..

bamboo_ leaf:

If competition in a ring or event as you seem to suggest is equal to fighting I think is confusion. If one can not demonstrate taiji in a simple push hands setting whats the point of any other setting?
I do not suggest that competition is equal to fighting.. it only builds familiarity with a more intense level of skill testing.. a closer approximation to fighting.. but, if one CAN demonstrate Taiji in a “simple push hands setting”, it does not indicate an ability to do the same at higher levels of intensity.. i can look at the mountain all day and assume i can climb it, but until i’m on top it is only conjecture.. a great mountain seen from a distance conceals the subtle pitfalls awaiting the those that have climbed lesser summits..
taiji does not exist in a vacuum, if one sees no evidence or finds none with in their practice or themselves maybe their practice is not quite correct.
I am pleased with my progress and find great comfort in the myriad of expressions of Tao found in my practice of the Art.. My current line of thought regarding these posts is the utter BS i see in so many people playing the “gentlemen’s” game and claiming it’s a Martial Art.. but, when asked to increase the level of skill testing they refuse behind so many empty excuses.. I don’t want to hurt anyone at all, but.. i do want to test “my” skills at every level.. i don’t want to be relying on the “gentlemen’s” experience when the street rules apply.. Experience IS the best teacher, if you don’t explore higher levels of intensity you won’t have the experience to deal with it when it explores you…

Be well..

26

TaiChiBob, what you said about intent is so very true. I’ve learned a few things since January that have made me more comfortable fighting, but a huge breakthrough came for me when I was beating a trout’s head I caught back in March to humanely kill him as quickly as possible.

I realise it was this, the kill mindset, that I was lacking going into a battle. Before, I would look to protect myself and of course hit the other guy as often as I could, preferably in the head. Now, I go into a fight realising that I don’t want to be touched at all, and it’s either the other guy or me and that is an easy choice, so I now go in looking to end things as quickly as possible, just like with the fish.

This sounds simple, but for me it has changed everything. It has unlocked something in me that perhaps I wasn’t ready or mature enough to tap into. Or, maybe if I had at a younger age I’d be an a$$hole. Who knows.

Nevertheless, I realise that the fighter I was even 4 months ago couldn’t compete with the fighter I am now and the thing that changed most was my mind and attitude… I realise now that you have to go in there to really beat somebody. And if they’re going in there with a half-fast attitude, there’s no way they can compete.

27

(My point, I do agree with you that competition is not the end all and be all of martial arts. I myself have been trying to organize some matches with no gear and no rules and you’d be surprised how many “competitive” fighters aren’t interested if there’s no trophy or medal involved … no rules or refs … no gear.)

no point… they seem to have a clear idea of what their doing and are not willing to take the risk.

As for people who don’t know what to do with it, or don’t understand its implications I don’t understand this. My reference to gentlemen, only means that we basically agree that we are there to explore and improve understanding and use of taiji concepts not to hurt each other. Once one has even a little skill its quite easy to do this, why would one? :cool:

(Psychological principles and their application are more significant than the physical presentation of them. Tai Chi should be practiced as physical action used to acquire, develop, train or teach these psychological principles!)

you seem not to understand this, once acquired the amount of pressure doesn’t matter its all the same. Its called understanding force.

if its not acquired one may still be able to fight with other means, sometimes this is not understood, they will continue to test it trying to make up for the lack of understanding one seeks or maybe one is not really seeking this and it is about:

(you’d be surprised how many “competitive” fighters aren’t interested if there’s no trophy or medal involved … no rules or refs … no gear.)

28

Greetings…

you seem not to understand this, once acquired the amount of pressure doesn’t matter its all the same. Its called understanding force.
In this, we agree.. but, applying “4 ounces” in a “gentleman’s” game and applying the same “4 ounces” on seasoned fighter are radically different situations.. My partner teaches Muay Thai, JKD, Escrima, and NHB submission wrestling.. applying 4 ounces on him is no easy task.. but, it will be impossible if i don’t contine to explore his arts and my skills.. speed is a major issue, here.. as are targets.. MT players will chop your legs to pieces if you don’t understand their strategy.. how much Taiji push-hands training accounts for this? Yet, with experience and training we have found several ways to play through that attack with sound Taiji principle.. something i wouldn’t have gotten from standard push-hands practice.. How many push-hands players employ “leg boxing”, that insipidly annoying entanglement of knees and shins during in-fighting? How do you deal with a NHB player that has just shot your legs and is driving you into the ground, where do you apply the 4 ounces of pressure? Until you step onto the mats and explore how to apply the theory, until you expand beyond gentle agreements.. you are gazing at a distant mountain..

Be well…

29

Personally, the fewer people that know how to truly apply these arts … the more valuable they become. :slight_smile:

Right now, there are many different internal practioners practicing the same theories differently or maybe perhaps even different theories all together. In the end, what matters is if they can use their principles.

What will never change is that for every practioner out there using and testing there will be 50 on the sidelines telling him he’s doing it wrong, against the principles, etc., etc., etc.

What will also not change is 9 out of 10 times the testing practioner will request for the not-so-silent majority to demonstrate how it should be done and there will be no takers.

Isn’t martial arts grand? :slight_smile:

30

Hi TaiChiBob,

I agree with your point and I didn’t mean to seem to poo poo competition or more realistic training environments. I merely intended to raise awareness of their limitations and to keep their benefits in proper perspective. I do not fault anyone for pursuing any type of training that brings them deeper insights into themselves, Tao and their chosen art. Under your proposition, there is nothing to lose and everything to gain

Hi Ray,

I train in the MA for many reasons, one of which is to avoid conflict! While full contact, no protective gear, no holds barred fighting lends a very realistic tenor to training, they are still duels and reflect only a narrow spectrum of possible circumstances. I am not intending to imply this type of training is a complete waste of time and I applaud your focus and desire to gain as much experience as possible. At one time I considered NHB fighting myself. However, all actions have a cost benefit ratio and we all must make our own assessment of what we are willing to risk for the perceived benefits. For you the benefits apparently out weigh the risks and this is not unusual for young men without much to lose. To me the risks involved are not worth the benefit the experiences are intended to provide and it seems you are finding it difficult to find other MA that would disagree with my perspective. It is more likely the ones you believe won’t fight without the benefit of gaining a trophy are wishing to avoid costly injuries which would endanger their pursuit of trophies! I prefer to gain benefit from observing men like you now instead of engaging in these activities myself.

All that will have to happen is to accidentally break someone’s neck or give them a concussion resulting in brain damage or choking someone out too long and not being able to resuscitate them quickly enough to send a person to the big house for a long long time and to stimulate civil actions aiming at all your possessions. Not to mention the damage to your own joints and hands resulting in osteoarthritis later in life. At 40 or 50 years of age it is unlikely you will still feel that such activities have provided you with important benefits. I don’t know your age but I have read a large number of your posts and they are filled with the energy and enthusiasm of a young man with uncontrolled testosterone surges. I am not being critical!!! Just stating apparent facts! We all have had such energy when we were younger. I am merely attempting to give the benefit of many years of training and the consequences of many injuries resulting from my own uncontrolled aggressiveness. I have no illusions that my cautions will be seriously considered, I see a lot of myself, when I was younger, in your attitudes and I didn’t listen either, LOL!! Just be cautious and understand the risks so you will not be surprised if a worst case scenario occurs!

I personally am not interested in anything that would risk my health or safety as I live to train and I choose to avoid circumstances that would risk my injury and thus limiting my ability to train. I would personally welcome a more serious training method as you propose Ray, however having trained for over 30 years and having sustained numerous injuries, you may find the damage you sustain to your body while young you regret in your middle age. As just one simple example I have severely sprained my right ankle 5 times in the last 25 years and each time the ankle returns to a less functional level than it previously possessed. My ankle requires constant attention to remain functional.

I am reminded of an old country western song. I have been trying to remember the title and singer for years, but so far I am unable to recall it. The song is about a young man who decided he wanted to take on the most legendary bar fighter. The young man finds him in a bar and sits next to him and strikes up a conversation with the old timer. The two of them sat there drinking beers together as the old timer regaled the younger with tales of all his famous fights and the injuries he sustained. Broken teeth, jaw, hands, knife cuts, hospital stays, etc. The old timer was basically a broken down mess. At the end of the song the young man realizes that the old man actually lost in the end because of the damage he sustained to his body just to stroke his ego. They young man left the bar deciding not to fight the old timer and considered himself the winner in the long run, because he learned the rep was not worth the cost.

Good luck to you though. I always enjoy reading you posts!!

Hi bamboo leaf,

I see you quoted one of my points, but I do not understand how your following point addressed, elaborates or criticizes my point. Would you please try to make your point more clear?

31

Greetings..

Scott: I didn’t take it as such.. i just used it as a segway into more analogies.. I have learned to respect your wisdoms.. Also, i agree with your assessment of value gained vs. cost paid.. my first introduction to MA was a Judo class my dad got me into at McCoy AFB in 1964.. today, at 54 yrs, i carry the evidence of abuse and youthful exhuberance.. but, still, i have seen and felt the real deal and am compelled to keep searching..

Be well…

32

Hi TaiChiBob,

Thank you for the clarification!!

Hi Ray continued:

In regards to your speculations regarding Shoju:

It is not uncommon to speculate and rationalize when we are faced with demonstrated abilities beyond our experience. A more comprehensive study of Zen would reveal stories like this are not uncommon. Hakuin himself (Shoju’s student you may recall.) had a similar experience and he was definitely not trained in the MA. He is one of the most well known Japanese Zen Masters on whom extensive biographical information is available.

One of the well known consequences of Zen study is the development of uncommon intuitive abilities. If you have never experienced this it does appear unbelievable. The only fair way to confirm or deny these phenomena is to investigate them for ourselves. I have no trouble accepting the story at face value because I have personal experience that confirms it occurs!

I will share another Zen story. Feel free to disregard it as well, but disbelief or rationalizing it away does not negate its meaning or reflect the untruth of the story, only the inexperience of the critic:

 [INDENT] There was an old man hurrying on his way to an appointment. His tardiness caused him to accidentally bump into a Samurai. The old man apologized, but the Samurai was offended by the old man’s carelessness and challenged him to a duel. The old man said that he was on his way to an appointment for which he was late and could they postpone the duel until later.  The Samurai agreed and a time and place to meet was arranged. 
Following his appointment the old man located a school that taught swordsmanship and requested an interview with the master. During his audience with the sword master the old man told of his situation and explained that he knew nothing of swordsmanship. The old man requested a brief instruction in swordsmanship so that he might make a reasonable accounting of himself before he was killed. The sword master recognized something exceptional about the old man and asked him what art he practiced. The old man explained that he was a master of the tea ceremony. The sword master instructed the old man to stand in a certain manner with the sword held high. The only thought in his mind that, “no matter what occurred he would cut the Samurai in two. “ The old man thanked the sword master and left to keep his appointment with the Samurai.
The old man arrived at the designated place at the appointed time for the duel. When the Samurai arrived and proper ceremony had been observed the old man took the position and attitude as the sword master had instructed him. 
The Samurai sensing something he had not recognized in their previous meeting threw himself on the ground at the feet of the old man and apologized for his inappropriate behavior. [/INDENT]

Here i will restate:

“When we master ourselves we are masters of all things”

33

(Psychological principles and their application are more significant than the physical presentation of them. Tai Chi should be practiced as physical action used to acquire, develop, train or teach these psychological principles!)

Taiji is the study of empty and full open and close, this refers to how the body handles and delivers force both on a physical level and psychological one. The ability to take it with out tension in the body and empty the body of its own force is mainly an aspect of the mind. Like riding a bike or swimming it functions below conscious level, the main point is being able to do the task (this is really quite hard and not esaly achived many spend yrs studying this, those that reach this level are mostly not belived because of this tend to be quite about it) Force in this case no matter how delivered is still force. Part of this is body training, the larger part is really developing the mind to have the sensitivity to feel the intent yi of another and understand the use of ones own.

Any attempt to have a fixed notion, or programmed response is dead and static and will not be able to adjust fast enough to the many changes that have to take place in order to negate another’s incoming force.

Push hands is training, that teaches one how to do this. The momentum of a body in movement is quite strong, not being able to empty or neutralize it one quickly learns the value of change, emptiness and what it means.

4oz refers to the sensitivity needed and used, not to an absolute pressure. If ones changes are very good how is it possible to apply more then 4oz of pressure to them? If ones changes are not then they have to deal with the total amount of power or pressure that one can apply not to mention their own momentum or force, 40z at the right time, right place is more then enough to do what ever one wants.

The mind by being empty, is much like a reflecting pool, only one that has an unattached awareness, it is this point (Tai Chi should be practiced as physical action used to acquire, develop, train or teach these psychological principles) among others that we really share many common views on. :cool:

34

(One of the well known consequences of Zen study is the development of uncommon intuitive abilities. If you have never experienced this it does appear unbelievable. The only fair way to confirm or deny these phenomena is to investigate them for ourselves.)

instead of Zen you could have said taiji it would be the same :cool:

35

Mr. Brown

Thank you for your last two posts, they meant a lot to me. You seem to understand where I am coming from. Also, I am familiar with that last Zen story … it is one of my favorites.

I certainly believe in the extraordinary abilities one can obtain when they live in the moment as a free individual, without any self or socialy imposed limits. I have experienced that sort of magic first hand to such an extent that it has changed my life, put it on the path that it is on now. I try to keep it with me on a day-to-day basis though somedays are those kind of knows, ya know?

Martially, I am on a very specific mission right now. All I can say is that there is a ryme and reason to what I am doing though I do not want to go into here and now. I don’t like to talk about what I am doing or what I want or hope to do … I’d rather focus on making sure I’m in the right place mentaly to do it and have the courage to live my dream on a day to day basis though common sense and a whole lot of others would and do tell me other wise … but that’s OK too. Some do it out of general concern, others out of their own self imposed fears.

Either way, my fear is what you said, I don’t want to seriously injure someone. As the fighters get tougher more violence will be needed to force a tap. I’m sure you are aware how viscious “Hold The Ball” can be … and think of a 220lbs MMA shooting to take you down and feed your forearms until your head splits open up the middle.

What to do then, if you can get that ball and hold it … do you drive off the back leg and crank it with all you got, because that can end it there and then? Or do you release it, hope you can get a decent position on the way down and make good of a bad situation?

I was doing that for a while. In fact, my last fight I tagged the guy really good in the opening, he tried to take me down, I held him off and just upper cutted him with like 5 shots and he tapped.

My master saw it and said besides the first shot, the others lacked power and the second shot should have put him down. So now we’re working on getting me to understand the foot’s relation to the hand.

I see now, I could have taken a second and blown his collar bone to bits … but to be honest, at his level, it wasn’t necessary. I had him, he was overwhelmed, and I knew I just had to keep the pressure on and the tap would come.

I don’t want to hurt anyone. At the same time I need to demonstrate that Taiji or internal and specifically E-Chuan solves these problems differently … I want it to be clear that it’s something else.

That’s about it. God has been good to me my whole life and times when the grace wasn’t there, turns out those were my greatest moments of learning so I’ve learned to deal with come what may but at the same time live my life with focus and intention.

Thank you for sharing some of your wisdom with me, a young man just realizing who he is.

Ray Pina

36

Hi bamboo leaf,

I think I understand your point now! I partially agree I think.

Of course Tai Chi is a physical action and therefore the physical actions must be learned and practiced. In truth it is the unified interaction of the physical and mental that one is striving to attain. However, the mind leads the body as the bow gives action to the arrow, and this is my point. The examples of Shoju and the tea master are intended to illustrate that in the end it is the mind that is the most important factor. A focused and clear mind requires no significant physical training as it provides intuitive insight and clear perception of dangers which allows us to avoid them before they occur. Neither Shoju, the tea master nor even Hakuin for that matter had any formal training and effectively defended themselves using the abilities of their minds.

Now, as Ray has implied, the power of the mind can be significantly reduced in import once one has an aggressive 220 lb. person sitting on your chest pummeling your face. If one is able to maintain a calm demeanor and clearly consider his alternatives under such circumstances, then I would say this is of significant benefit. However, the cultivation of wisdom and intuitive insight is meant to provide the means of avoiding such a condition. No amount of physical skill can defend against some forms of attack, like a hammer to the back of the head or a .44 magnum to the chest, but clear perceptions and intuitive insight allows one to ameliorate hostile circumstances or avoid them altogether, and this too is my point!!

In my youth I trained with the intensity and focus that Ray exhibits, as many of us did. But in my middle years with less testosterone circulating in my system, (LOL!!!), I have realized that the mind should be my greater focus. I am less concerned with developing perfect form and technique and more concerned with developing a clear mind! Physical training is merely another means to that end! Chinese philosophy teaches that the greatest victory is the victory that is won without conflict. The Wen-tzu teaches about sages: “Because they do not contend with anyone, no one dares to contend with them.” Victory can have its negative consequences too as illustrated in the bar fighter song. So to win without contention, where all involved save face and walk away feeling good about themselves, is the true victory!

Hi Ray,

Yes, your writings do present you as being focused with clear intent and goals. Sort of a method to your madness, LOL!!! That is why I enjoy reading your thoughts and experiences. I enjoy observing your growth process as you think through your experiences and share your new insights! To me you are treading the edge which, as I have implied, is both the folly and virtue of youth!! The fact that you seem to have a good teacher and some insight combined with intelligence is of great benefit to you! Keep in mind the fear you mention possessed by those not seeking to contend in the same manner you choose is not necessarily cowardliness. Healthy fear has the purpose of protecting the individual from consequences too great for the benefit accrued. The absence of fear does not necessarily demonstrate courage, but often demonstrates a lack of self-control and downright foolishness! Generally speaking the ego benefits of being a “Bad Dude” will not outweigh the physical consequences in the long term, as illustrated in the bar fighter song. I have another true life example I will share at another time concerning a fighter whose confidence and lack of fear (ego) got himself killed!! I can see from your posts you are learning to control your youthful energy and redirect its focus. This, along with your inherent intelligence and insight will be your saving grace I am sure! Thank you for you active participation on these boards!! But again as I have said, with the wisdom of a hopefully not so old timer (LOL!!), please be careful not to go to far and consequently suffer a cost greater than the benefits accrued!!

37

Bob,

the realities of competition is that you would have to:

Develop the rules
Have people that were willing to learn them and be judges
Get enough people who would leanr of the rules

And sign up for such a division in a competition.

the reality of the competition scene is that with the melt down of the USAWKF, the infighting, the era of everyone having a BIG tournament…and so on, there are not enough events or competitors that would do this.

When you go to most events where they have Tuishou, it is fixed and limited step varieties. The full moving push hands is small or nonexistent.

That is due to the lack of skill and interest in the Taijiquan community at large.

What you propose is adding an even more difficult level beyond an level that already does NOT have full participation.

In regards to a Taijquan Sanda division…personally, I look at it this way: If you CAN use Taijiquan in the Sanda sense, it should NOT matter what the opponent does..your methods should follow out of your Taijiquan.

The reality is that very few can do this. Even those schools that claim to teach taijiquan for application tend to look like bad kickboxers when in a Sanda division.

38

(I am less concerned with developing perfect form and technique and more concerned with developing a clear mind!)

taiji first starts with the injunction first in mind. Many really either don’t understand this or neglect it. Weather one agrees or not I think is really unimportant, we all have different paths to walk and chose from. My only point is to be clear in what is being chosen. In your writings I can sense and feel an understanding in your thoughts that seems to be the along the same points that I have reached through my own work.

39

Well, knowing is half the battle right. Either way, it is weird, because every tournament I’ve done push hands at, it seems everyone has a similar argument, but it doesn’t carry through the competition.

40

Greetings..

There seems to be some good momentum behind organizing a Chen Village Rules event.. www.wudang.com under the Martial Arts pull-down, Forums.. has a group of interested people developing a format for just such an event.. these are notable and respected competitors and judges.. it has been stated that Nick Scrima will consider adding this type of event to his next tournament, if we can get the rules right.. On that forum is a beautifully crafted letter from Josh Waitzkin and Dan Caulfield that is well worth a read..

It is amusing that so many people find so many reasons NOT to raise the art to a more robust level within its own right.. many suggest that we go to Sanda or Sanshou and play by their rules.. as Josh and Dan’s letter suggests, let them come to a Chen Village Rules event.. bring it back to Taiji..

The reality is that very few can do this. Even those schools that claim to teach taijiquan for application tend to look like bad kickboxers when in a Sanda division.
I agree.. which is why i suggest that we begin in the Taiji venue by having events that would motivate people to raise their game.. we keep exporting Taiji out to Sanda or Sanshou and people stay there because we have nothing within Taiji events that rewards Taiji’s true Martial potential..

Again, i suggest that everyone read Josh and Dan’s letter @ Wudang.. if you are truly interested in Taiji evolving.. That letter is a heartfelt expression of a love for our Art by two guys that have won the Gold on the Chen Village Rule’s home turf..

Be well..