This is a great example–define uprooted? I mean, somebody might execute a hard head shuck and knock me off balance a little, but if I recover did they do it well enough?
Or is that the point-To not be knocked offbalance at all? [/B]
This is what I’m thinking about when I use the term uprooted. I’m going to use an example because it’s easier. If you have “root”, it means you have “base” or a groundpath. If you and I are sparring, what I want to do is crash into you to knock you off balance. However, I DON’T want to blast you with everything I have. If I do, you’ll probably stagger back and I need to have you close to me. Why? I want to keep pushing and pulling to keep you jostled. Once I “take” you balance, I’m not going to let you have it back.
If you have a good base, you can punch me hard or throw me. If you’re fighting to get you balance back, you can’t. You may hit me, but it will be an arm punch and I can take that! At the same time, I practice the forms, stancework, etc. in addition to sparring so that while I’m constantly screwing with you balance, I’m never losing mine.
Every time I jostle you off balance it is an attack. It doesn’t even really matter if that one attack is successful because eventually one of the techs will work and BOOM you fall down.
What I try to do in sparring is very similar in strategy to how a wrestler attacks. The main diference is that I don’t want to clinch or lock up. I want you to be constantly moving around so you never have a chance to launch a counter attack of your own.
Be nice, because this is just my interpretation. But so far it works beautifully
I don’t think when defining ‘uprooted’ that the uprooted person need fall down in order to have been uprooted, nor do I think it is possible to keep someone permanantly uprooted whilst pushing/sparring with them. An uproot is a defining moment when ones position is weak and it is capitalised on by the other and their balance is taken from them.
A Tai Chi comp is being held in Oxford this april (as it has been for about 10 yesrs) that will have an event much like you suggest.
I have not entered it for several years but I remember well my days of throwing totaly unsuspecting Yang style guys over my head with step up raise hands and lifting them off the floor with elbow locks.
Now as far as i know this is a Tai chi union of britain event but I could be wrong. It is very well attended and even attracts guys from europe.
The 2 main events are Fixed step pushing hands (where u lose if u mpove your feet or touch the ground) and moveing step pushing hands which is held over 2 rounds (if i remember0 and you win by either forceing your oponent out of a 24x24 foot area or by making them hit the mat with anything other than their feet.
there will also be some san shou.
As for how do you judge up rooting if feet can be moved. Well is the object to purley uproot your oponent or should it be a prelude to somthing else? In the large area you win no points for uprooting but if you can use your uprooting to do somthing that effects your oponent negatively (i.e throw them to the floor or move them to a place where they dont want to be moved to) you get points and win.
And as for the guys above who say it will breack down into brute force…well that makes me mad. You are trying to use tai chi to over come brute force so you set up a comp that makes it illegal to use force. Kind of misses the point dont it. If you can not cope with brute force then you should lose.
I realise that Pushing hands competitions already exist but the point of the thread is that they are not open and the rules that they impose are restrictive and don’t allow for free expression. I have looked up the rules to the TCUGB pushing hands comps and they don’t appear to suit pushing hands exponents that come from anything other than Tai Chi.
I have never watched one so I don’t know but from what I’ve read I am unsure whether they would appeal on a wider scale.
Whats not open about them? Anyone can enter regardless of style.
The rules are.
Large area (aprox 24x24 feet.
Get 1 point for putting your oponent out of the area.
Get 1 point for making them touch the ground with anything other than the bottem of their feet.
If i remember correctly.
You get 3 points for sending youir oponent flying out of the area.
You get 3 points for fully dropping youir oponent to the ground.
No strikes allowed…no dangerouse throws (depends on the ref)
The main problem is that the rules tend to change right up to the day of the comp to pander to certain groups who think that things should be done in certain ways.
Like i said I haven’t watched one so i can’t pass judgement, but from what i read about the rules they seem restrictive to me, particularly the fact that one cannot raise ones feet, in our system this would happen quite regularly in order to resettle posture, without having been in a losing position.
And as for the guys above who say it will breack down into brute force…well that makes me mad.
Tai Chi push-hands competition is just that push-hands, not a free-for-all.. The purpose, as i understand it, is to compare push-hands skills.. As has been stated in this thread, there is a wide variety of venues for those wishing to test their skills against MMA fighters.. Why get mad because an established format doesn’t fit your concepts and other formats fit precisely.. the choice should be for the players.
Of course i can hear the lamentations over how Push-hands players avoid “real” fighters.. My assertion is that most CIMA players are looking to train for the “unlikely” event they are forced into a combative situation.. very few are looking to dominate the NHB arena.. For those truly interested in training internally for such events, there are a few schools that offer such training.. The measure of your dedication is also in your willingness to seek out such schools, to sacrifice personal comforts in favor of the ultimate training… The choice is yours, don’t impose your concepts on others..
If you can not cope with brute force then you should lose.
Simply because Push-hands competitions don’t include wrestlers, Muay Thai, JKD, Shootfighters, etc.. does not preclude the players from being able to handle “brute force”, it simply sets this event aside for comparing skills within a prescribed format.. It would be a long leap of logic to assume that good push-hands players can’t handle themselves in a standard street setting.. of course next we will surely quibble about the term “good”..
Those that fault Tai Chi players for not competing in open events or inviting MMA into Tai Chi competitions are narrowly focused on their own agendas, failing to recognize that all the formats are available, subject to the choices of the players..
I recently went to an All Chinese style tournament in which I was thrilled to hear had standing and moving step Comp. What Iwas very dissapointed to see were the competitors literally leaning and pushing on eachother. No it was not a shuai jiao comp. These guys were just fighting so hard to push eachother around it was disgusting. Any person with some sensitivty training including Judoka or freestyle grapplers could do that. I was both hurt and confused at witnessing the lack of concern for technique and application. whats the use?
Then I saw these two guys in the advanced devision, both about 170- 180 lbs. It was the coolest thing. They got moving and everyonce in a while someone would either push and get yanked down or out. Or get barred and thrown. All these subtle things were happening that most open comp viewers were bored with and I was so facinated.
We have to be able to practice all the things we train. As far as I am concered all these comps are practice sessions. I think that most experienced players can tell when you are leaving the scope of what is expected from an internal arts player. Without letting the match deteriorate into an open fighting comp, all the techniques, strategies (trickeries) should be allowed and Stricktly wathed and judged.
“But hey, thats just my oppinion, I could be wrong”
Judging someone’s intelligence based on their spelling errors is not what I’d call sound analysis. While spelling correctly may be an indicator of a certain type of intelligence, spelling errors are not necessarily an indication of a lack of intelligence.
The only reason I mentioned it at all is because I’ve used that tagline myself a bit. I was just teasing you.
NO Problem I can recognize a zing when I hear /read it. I didnt take it wrong. I am off for now gentlemen. Talk again tomorrow. Thank you all for the stimulus.
Like i said I haven’t watched one so i can’t pass judgement, but from what i read about the rules they seem restrictive to me, particularly the fact that one cannot raise ones feet, in our system this would happen quite regularly in order to resettle posture, without having been in a losing position.
No rules about not being able to life your feet at all in April Oxford.
Originally posted by Scythe I have never watched one so I don’t know but from what I’ve read I am unsure whether they would appeal on a wider scale.
That is the impression I got from the beginning.
Tui Shou is not just a standing grappling competition or free-for-all.
Tui Shou is about a specific set of skills within the CIMA, there are other styles that also practice different version of this, and some are even considered external.
A few years a go a NON-TCC person won the Push Hands competition in Chen Village.
As Liokault said most of the rules are pretty open.
As for CIMA not being able to handle brute force, brute force is the easiest force to defeat for a skilled exponent.
Why because the guy using brute force cannot read me or my intention but his are very clear to me.
Liokault: Is the Pushing hands Comp in Oxford in April the TCUGB one?
If it is I read the rules on their Website and they did say that one cannot raise the foot, if this is not the case I’d be happy to enter.
I have them in front of me and they say ‘…1point will be awarded if a contestant raises his foot from the floor…’ this is in the rules to fixed step pushing hands, the moving step rules start by saying ‘The rules shall be the same as those given above with certain additions…’
These rules are on www.taichiunion.com/botccrules.html
If the comp You talk of in April is a different one I’d love to hear about it.
Laughing cow, I never said anything about pushing hands not being able to deal with brute force, I think it makes it all the easier to deal with brute force…Theres no point preaching to the converted.
I also never said it should be a stand up grappling comp or a free for all but i don’t see any problem with allowing grappling techniques in as long as they are applied under pushing hands format.
Originally posted by Scythe If it is I read the rules on their Website and they did say that one cannot raise the foot, if this is not the case I’d be happy to enter.
Nothing wrong with that rule as it is for the “Fixed Step” Competition.
In short BOTH Competitiors are stationary for the first 30 seconds, than switch feet and remain stationary for the other 30 seconds.
As explained in the rules.
The “Moving Step” of course allows you to lift the foot. Hence you are given the 24x24 foot area to move around in.
Glad they don’t have a 1-step or 3-step competition.
Would also be interested if the “Fixed Step” is one-handed or double-handed.
I prefer one-handed for “Fixed Step”.
So I think the one you want to enter is the moving step one.
The rules shall be the same as those given above with certain additions. The contest area will not exceed 24’ x 24’. Contestants will approach one another at the direction of the referee from opposite ends of the contest area and make hand/arm contact. The contest will begin on the referee’s command.
Scoring 1 point will be awarded where a contestant steps outside of the area. 2 points will be awarded for a half fall. 4 points for a full fall and 8 points where a contestant is sent flying out of the area.
Permitted Moves Contestants may move freely within the contest area using peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou & kao etc.
Taken from the web site you sent me to above Scythe.
You need to remember that there are 2 types of pushing hands going on…one requires you to keep your feet fixed and the other (above ) is very open.
As I said i haven’t watched one but the rules page on the TCUGB website say ‘That the rules shall be the same as the above(meaning fixed step) with certain additions’. If you guys say it is otherwise then that is cool, it is in that case just misleading the way it is written on their site.
Is it open to all styles which practice pushing hands?
Another thing you guys maybe able to help with, i am not familiar with the terms, peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, zhou and kao…what do they mean?
Is anyone here planning to enter? i think I may give it a go if the moving step is as open as you say it is as this will allow for the differences in style.
