Expertise

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
1

The funny thing is that the MMAers that post here seem to think themselves more than qualified to comment on kung fu but a kung fu person is not allowed to make comments on MMA.

What a bunch of BS.

Basically, its a double standard. In addition the MMA crowd refuses to actually define what MMA is…is it a style? a venue? an approach? By refusing definition they elude critique and it allows them also to be “experts” on everything (and nothing at the same time.)

There are so many different solutions to a problem ie self-defense/fighting that its retarded to claim knowledge over all of them (there are supposedly over 300 documented styles of kung fu). Yes, we only have one body and all of them are laid out in pretty much the same way (ie a head, 2 legs, 2 arms, etc.) but there is not ONE WAY to fight or ONE APPROACH to fighting.

Just as there are a myriad of different approaches to cooking food there are a myriad of equally valid approaches to self-defense/fighting…there is no magic pill or even a magic approach. Its what works for you.

That being said there are 3 foundations to all REAL martial arts training (whether MMA, Kung Fu or whatever):

Training Attributes, Practicing Skills and Competition.

Those 3 containers leave alot of room for what you will fill them with.

I’m out.

FP

2

[QUOTE=Fu-Pow;791442]The funny thing is that the MMAers that post here seem to think themselves more than qualified to comment on kung fu but a kung fu person is not allowed to make comments on MMA.

What a bunch of BS.

Basically, its a double standard. In addition the MMA crowd refuses to actually define what MMA is…is it a style? a venue? an approach? By refusing definition they elude critique and it allows them also to be “experts” on everything (and nothing at the same time.)

There are so many different solutions to a problem ie self-defense/fighting that its retarded to claim knowledge over all of them (there are supposedly over 300 documented styles of kung fu). Yes, we only have one body and all of them are laid out in pretty much the same way (ie a head, 2 legs, 2 arms, etc.) but there is not ONE WAY to fight or ONE APPROACH to fighting.

Just as there are a myriad of different approaches to cooking food there are a myriad of equally valid approaches to self-defense/fighting…there is no magic pill or even a magic approach. Its what works for you.

That being said there are 3 foundations to all REAL martial arts training (whether MMA, Kung Fu or whatever):

Training Attributes, Practicing Skills and Competition.

Those 3 containers leave alot of room for what you will fill them with.

I’m out.

FP[/QUOTE]

I wouldn’t put competition there, testing yes, competition no.

3

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;791445]I wouldn’t put competition there, testing yes, competition no.[/QUOTE]

If by testing you mean ‘competitive drills’ then we are on the same page.

FP

4

[QUOTE=Fu-Pow;791442]The funny thing is that the MMAers that post here seem to think themselves more than qualified to comment on kung fu but a kung fu person is not allowed to make comments on MMA.

What a bunch of BS.[/QUOTE]

Most of the MMA posters here have experience in a TMA of one form or another. But hardly any of the kung fu posters have any MMA training. Hence, the disconnect.

5

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;791445]I wouldn’t put competition there, testing yes, competition no.[/QUOTE]

If by testing you mean ‘competitive drills’ then we are on the same page. Basically, something that gives you feedback on what you are doing right and wrong.

FP

6

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;791447]Most of the MMA posters here have experience in a TMA of one form or another. But hardly any of the kung fu posters have any MMA training. Hence, the disconnect.[/QUOTE]

But again, the definition problem, what is MMA?

FP

7

[QUOTE=Fu-Pow;791449]But again, the definition problem, what is MMA?

FP[/QUOTE]

I would say it’s a competition rule-set.

You can train any style to fit the competition format, which is why you typically have so many different sport styles represented–BJJ, wrestling, boxing, Muay Thai, Shan Shou, Sambo, Judo etc…

8

I think he means, he is gonna try to punch you in the face and if you don’t block it, then you know if your technique works.

and MMA, if you are looking for a definition, is a rule set, depending on the organization, a systematic approach of combining combat schools of thought which then becomes stylistic based upon diffrent camp’s approaches.

There are several main stay systems that are represented in MMA camps. THe majority of them are Muay Thai, Boxing, Judo, Bjj, wrestling, Sambo, and I sure other styles to a lesser degree.

Now depending on the camps paticular desires they will mix and match the theories and techniques of these systems accoriding to their own personal attributes.

They will then train towards the venues ruleset. Some venues allow knees to a downed opponent where as others do not. If they are allowed to use the point of the elbow some will train to use that. It is all very dependant on the venuse but that is not to say that despite the rule set they won’t train these techniques.

Fu pow

By refusing definition they elude critique and it allows them also to be “experts” on everything (and nothing at the same time.)

They can be critiqued based upon their kicking, throwing, striking, submissions, defense skill sets reguardless of codification and being wrapped in a nice little bow.

allows them also to be “experts” on everything (and nothing at the same time.)

A person who practices the skill sets of kicking, striking, grappling, submission, ect, ect would be more prepared to speak on fighting with a bit of expertise compared to ap erson who only does kicking. Just as a person who does martial arts as a non-fighter is ill prepared to speak on the reality of fighting versus a in-ring fighter.

The funny thing is that the MMAers that post here seem to think themselves more than qualified to comment on kung fu but a kung fu person is not allowed to make comments on MMA.

There are only so many ways that you can strike, kick, punch and some are successful while others are down right useless. The best way to determine this is in a full on scenario. If you say your “frog punch” can break a rib or knock a man out but you are unable to produce the desired outcome during a sparring session then the technique doesn’t work.

Those who pressure test, for a lack of a better term, are definately more in the know about the effects of a effective blows and techniques.

cliff notes

MMA is

A rule set because each venue has varying rules

A style because each camp will have a specialty area and add in what they need to become combat ready per their view of what is needed. example, Muay Thai fighter will add grappling to keep from going to the ground and being able to defend once they are taken to the ground. A Bjj fighter will add better striking or striking defense to avoid getting KTFO.

An approach because it systematically defines what works and what does not work in a full contact scenario and discards that which is ineffective.

Cheers

9

definition of MMA

I think your looking for separate definitions for MMA as a ‘venue’ or ruleset and MMA as a method of training MA.

MMA can’t be a ‘style’ as it is a mixture of styles, but there are organizations (i.e. JKD, Kajukembo, etc.) that use the method of integrating techniques from several ‘styles’.

MMA as a ‘venue’ and MMA as a ‘method’ are both correct when used in their proper context.:wink:

10

Mixed martial arts are not new to anyone. Think of the number of CMA that were training more than one system (Cheng Ting Hua / Yin Fu / Sun Lu Tang / Pu En Fu are just a few that come to mind!). Now a days it has a title “MMA,” but that is all it is. Look at the Filipino martial systems and almost everyone that was anyone trained in a number of different families or systems that specialize in certain concepts or aspects of combat.

As for the comment about MMA vs. TCMA people making comments…

  1. I would not use anything that is said on this board as a standard for anything. Too many idiots here that have no clue, and the admin’s have zero initiative to ban the troll’s so they know they have a place here to act like idiots.

  2. Not sure what you have been reading bro, but the overwhleming majority of comments I read on this board (and others) is totally the opposite of what you state. It is usually the CMA or TMA that is running their mouth about how ineffective MMA/BJJ is, not the other way around.

  3. Personally I do not make comments about something I am ignorant about. “Experience” is not a 2 hour intro course on BJJ. Spend some time actually immersing oneself into the art as a whole and then you can speak more intelligently and with some conviction.

Cheers
Jake :cool:

11

[QUOTE=Three Harmonies;791524]
3) Personally I do not make comments about something I am ignorant about. “Experience” is not a 2 hour intro course on BJJ. Spend some time actually immersing oneself into the art as a whole and then you can speak more intelligently and with some conviction.
[/QUOTE]
Nope, that only works if you are a TCMAer who drops kung fu as anything but a punch line. I thought this sounded like a good point. So I went out and found a very good, successful submission wrestler/coach to train under. I found nothing to support the claim that kung fu, when taught by a very skilled teacher, cannot hold it’s own with so called “pure” MMaers. Now the suspision is that I’m either trolling or my coach sucks. :rolleyes:

12

[QUOTE=Becca;791571]Nope, that only works if you are a TCMAer who drops kung fu as anything but a punch line. I thought this sounded like a good point. So I went out and found a very good, successful submission wrestler/coach to train under. I found nothing to support the claim that kung fu, when taught by a very skilled teacher, cannot hold it’s own with so called “pure” MMaers. Now the suspision is that I’m either trolling or my coach sucks. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

I’m still waiting for you to stop by my friend’s BJJ school to demonstrate your kung fu and non-stoppable takedowns. He’s only about 10 or 15 minutes from you. Until then, I’m going with the troll.

13

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;791572]I’m still waiting for you to stop by my friend’s BJJ school to demonstrate your kung fu and non-stoppable takedowns. He’s only about 10 or 15 minutes from you. Until then, I’m going with the troll.[/QUOTE]
LOL! That was to have been between you and me. You changed it to “your buddy”. And no thank-you. I understand his school is carpeted; I have no desire to roll on carpet. Some park or other, sure. Neutral ground (non-carpeted)? Sure.

14

[QUOTE=Becca;791574]LOL! That was to have been between you and me. You changed it to “your buddy”. And no thank-you. I understand his school is carpeted; I have no desire to roll on carpet. Some park or other, sure. Neutral ground (non-carpeted)? Sure.[/QUOTE]

Carpeted? Hardly… Zingano BJJ- fully equiped BJJ facility. You will not find a single BJJ school without mats. Anyone who had ever rolled with BJJ people (or any grapplers for that matter) would know that you don’t train grappling on carpets.

Seeing as how I’m not able to come out to Colorado this summer, that would be kind of hard to do (of course, you already knew that). What would be easy to do would be for you to drive 10 minutes, stop in and work takedowns and ground work with them. But of course that would expose you as the liar you are.

15

:eek::eek::eek:

16

does that mean if a guy is trainnig in Muay Thai,BJJ,and boxing, but does not compete, he is not doing MMA?

17

[QUOTE=TenTigers;791605]does that mean if a guy is trainnig in Muay Thai,BJJ,and boxing, but does not compete, he is not doing MMA?[/QUOTE]

I think that’s where my confusion is, some people claim to train MMA but don’t compete in any MMA venue. Are they still considered to practice MMA? If so, how is that different from anyone that crosstrains across multiple styles? For example, Jeet Kune Do.

FP

18

[QUOTE=Fu-Pow;791636]I think that’s where my confusion is, some people claim to train MMA but don’t compete in any MMA venue. Are they still considered to practice MMA? If so, how is that different from anyone that crosstrains across multiple styles? For example, Jeet Kune Do.

FP[/QUOTE]

From my perspective, one trains in mixed martial arts when:

  1. Specific training is had for each range of one-on-one physical violence (striking, standing grappling/throwing, ground work)

  2. Training time is devoted to the free-flow of non-cooperative sparring between all ranges of physical violence

  3. Partner-Resistant training composes the majority of training time

. . .

Me, I love mixed martial arts, as a venue (UFC, Pride, Bodog, King of the Cage, etc) and as a training paradigm (what better way to make the techniques of our TMA work). At the end of the day, though, I’m still going to be a karate man that loves training, whatever range I’m in.

19

[QUOTE=Vash;791638]
Me, I love mixed martial arts, as a venue (UFC, Pride, Bodog, King of the Cage, etc) and as a training paradigm (what better way to make the techniques of our TMA work).[/QUOTE]

Amen Bruva.

20

does that mean if a guy is trainnig in Muay Thai,BJJ,and boxing, but does not compete, he is not doing MMA?

If he trains at a Muay Thai class, and a BJJ class, and Boxing class, then he is training Muay Thai, BJJ, and Boxing. If he has one class that trains elements of all of these, he is training MMA.

[QUOTE=Fu-Pow;791636]I think that’s where my confusion is, some people claim to train MMA but don’t compete in any MMA venue. Are they still considered to practice MMA? If so, how is that different from anyone that crosstrains across multiple styles? For example, Jeet Kune Do.

FP[/QUOTE]

MMA clubs probably focus more on conditioning and sport-specific techniques and strategies than your average JKD club. For example, we spend a lot of time just learning how to use a cage/ring to your advantage.

Also, like Vash said, there is a tremendous amount of partner work, at various levels of intensity.

Cross training in multiple styles is MMA as long as those styles cover striking range, clinching range, and grappling range.

You don’t have to study BJJ. There are other alternatives such as Sambo, freestyle wrestling, etc…

Boxing + Savate + CLF does not = MMA.

CLF + Freestyle wrestling = MMA.