Originally posted by EarthDragon
lost oath, how long in mantis? what style and with whom? as in lineage
SPM with Sifu Sapir Tal. An “Enter the Gate” of GM Henry Poo Yee.
I’m guessing you know the rest of his lineage.
Originally posted by red5angel
… In my experience, elbows aren’t any hard to block then anything else. …
We all agree that most efficient elbow strikes (and those that generate the most power) are when opponents in close contact with each other.
Elbows are hard to block (unless an “x-block” is when you’re blocking an elbow with you’re head which leaves a nasty x mark on your forehead) because, just like any other strike that’s being delivered from a short distance, are very quick and powerful.
Sure, it’s easy to say “if I was doing this, and standing there I could take your elbow” but in this case - I wouldn’t use an elbow.
Think about it.
Originally posted by Lost Oath
… Elbows are hard to block (unless an “x-block” is when you’re blocking an elbow with you’re head which leaves a nasty x mark on your forehead) because, just like any other strike that’s being delivered from a short distance, are very quick and powerful.
…
:rolleyes: Funny. By block, I’m assumming you meen “keep it from hitting the intended target”? If it’s going tward the head I’d use an overhead X-block. Body/grion shot, I’d use a vertical X-block. Low kick, a lower X-block. This is not spacific to any attack. this is what I’d use for anything being trown at me from within my guard. I’m not spouting rubbish someone told me. This is what works for me.
Originally posted by red5angel
[B]but I would say if the kick-thrower is in a good position to throw in the first place it should be very very difficult to block…
or
but I would say if the punch-thrower is in a good position…
[/b]I’m not disputing that. I am talking about elbows.
That’s a big IF in my opinion.
Fair enough. But to me blocking anything is of secondary importance to getting good position, staying aggressive, keeping up the pressure and dropping my opponent. Those are the things that I always work for.
Sometimes that positioning lends itself to an opportune elbow, but then I never ‘plan’ an attack, I just hope to let the energies, drills and combos I’ve practised to take over and deliver for me.
Since the initial thread was about how you use elbows in your art and then became framed in the subject of blocking them, I thought I’d try and address the topic.
In my experience, elbows aren’t any hard to block then anything else. You could say that since elbows are fairly close ranged weapons, they often get snuck in, but so do short kicks and punches.
The fact that they are usually from closer range makes them more difficult to block, no? Blocked many headbutts?
The problem I see mroe often then not is although elbows are easy to throw when close in, most people can’t get the proper power generation to make them worth throwing half the time anyway.
Really? I’d say, in the interest of discussion and not flaming or anything… that that’s a crock of shit!!!
How many times have people thrown an elbow at you and it’s bounced off without damaging you because it didn’t have the power? More likely that they didn’t have the positioning or the reach, no? Who are these elbowless misfits? From capoeira? Don’t tell me, from wing chun pattycakers?! 
Part of the joy of elbows is that they are very very easy to generate the power with.
Hell, I’d even go so far as to say a good fighter who is in elbow range is probably anticipating those elbow shots cause they can be so effective if used properly.
Now that’s a good point. A fighter who’s exp’d and good at reading should know when one is coming… But then they should be working their position to avoid that situation in the first place… And then that’s the old the Good Fighter ™ vs the Good Elbow Thrower ™ gag again.
So in general I would say that since many people practise elbows and not so many people practise specifically blocking against elbows, plus it’s generally easier to throw something than to block, that the elbow should be quite effective.
Becca.
Fair enough.
Don’t have x-blocks in any of the systems I’ve studied (except for some pretty dubious numbers in my karate years ago), and haven’t met any yet, so you’d probably tie me up with them…!
(I can’t comment on their effectiveness against elbows therefore of course.)
Re: Arm Breaking Force
Originally posted by wolfen
As to regards how does anyone know what the forces are for breaking limbs? Well, i never broke an arm yet this way, though it is usually the primary technique i am prepared to do and i learned it very early. Hapkido goes back to wartime Korea and back to Daito Ryo jujitsu and hundreds of years of application.
We used to joke about the old masters experimenting on peasants, but we weren’t far wrong.
It is documented that General Yoshimitsu studied cadavers of prisoners for technical use. It is documented about using corpses piled between stakes to test the cut of a sword and so on and so on.
Good point about the tests on prisoners, except that most of the documented cases were katana and later, karate. Besides, it still wouldn’t give you a poundage measure. I don’t think they were doing it in the interests of science somehow!
As for Yoshimitsu, it’s also documented that primarily he studied the movements of spiders to develop his daitoryu… so you could say it is documented he was quite balmy and out of touch with reality…! :eek:
Now of course ther is the other type of joint lock which breaks the elbow when the arm is bent. Kotegashi in Aikido or Guki # 1 in Hapkido (that one is the hand right by the shoulder. That one is also devastating to the elbow.
Aaaah, the inside kotegaeshi… tried a few of these against unarmed people in sparring and (fortunately perhaps!) never got one to work after so far 14 years of aiki against all manner of resisting opponents. Against someone holding a weapon the positioning needed is a different matter (say a stick, or a bokuto) and would maybe be more effective, but basically you’re talking about a battlefield tech with little relevance to modern fighting IMO. Same goes for shihonage. The outside kotegaeshi where you extend their wrist outwards and strike the elbow (which is going outwards at about 120 degs) would probably have a good chance of damaging it, but I would bet on a break, and again, this is low percentage.
What I was arguing is that against an incoming bent elbow strike, you’re gonna have precious little chance of breaking it before they hit you with a dozen other things.
And other variation too like hooking the punch and end up twisting it behind the opponent like arm lock, but not like arm lock because there is special way to break in this position.
…
Now in methodology sthere is stand and throw strikes versus grappling and joint locking and sticky, elbows sticky knees etc.
If you go up against the second type of fighter using elbows and knees it is a good idea to at least be familiar with what they might try to do. [/B][/QUOTE]
Holy sh1t.
Where was my personal attack?
Sorry mate, I read my posts again and can’t find one. As for my gag about the number of Chinese sayings, I don’t think SPJ found it offensive, and if he did I’d apologize, so otherwise if it’s not your humour and I’ve offended you, sorry.
You brought up poundage that’s all, not me. I was asking you how you got that info. What’s difficult to understand about that? How was that insulting your teacher?
As for exp, I’ve used my 14 years exp of aiki in the street, in bars, on the door, teaching in the dojo, and sparring with pro-fighters. I was offering an assessment from my exp on a tech which I feel particularly outdated, so there’s no need for you to get offensive.
And you offered something about Yoshimitsu being scientific, to which I suggested that 12 century science was maybe not all it was cracked up to be through his extensive study of spiders for ****'s sake. If somehow that has offended you, I suggest you chill out or **** off and stop judging people by your own abusive bs.
One last thing. Nowhere did I say my elbow was unstoppable. I said with the right position it should be difficult to stop. Is that difficult for your overtaxed imagination to understand?
Re: rolling technique
Originally posted by wolfen
Weightlifters are taking a real risk with some of their stunts.
I read of a weightlifter messed up his neck vertebrae for life.
I know people who train MA that are messed up for life. When you do something improperly, you run that risk. MA training is no safer than weight lifting.
Re: X Block
Originally posted by wolfen
That x-block is really hard to visualize. I got the general impression that everyone else here got the same puzzlement.
Do you have any photo or link or book reference to help descibe this?
Nope, no potpgraps. Will try to explain instead, Ok?
Overhead X-block: shoot arms up from waste and intersect at mid-forearm, hands fisted and facing out. You want to shoot out as well as up, ideally connecting at 45` angle and almost, but not quite your full arm extention.
Lower X-block: revese, more or less, of upper X-block
Side X-block: leading arm down in a close-fisted slap block. Follow hand in a close-fisted inside block. arms overlap just slightly at the elbow.
Make deep is this the key to your blocking elbows?
Yes. I also combine with a twist and diaginal step in to get a bit more room if need be, but usually don’t need to. I have found this block can absorb alot of punishment and still hold.
Do you already have something like this technique in your repitoire?
I have several along those lines. Some are formal drill/self-defences. Most I worked out for myself by trying them out sparring then taking the best techniques and working them durring shadow boxing. I’m short and rather quick, so this type of “phonebooth fighting” works very well for me.
Wolfen’s extraordinary post.
been busy so I haven’t been around much and never got to catch this little gem of a post.
Originally posted by wolfen
Skipping right to the core of it, i just got to estimate something went wrong in your training.
Thanks for the diagnosis doc.
To spend 14 years in Aiki and not be able to make it work.
On the contrary, in a previous post I’d said it had worked for me in many situations. Maybe I wasn’t clear enough: you mentioned inside kotegaeshi (the bent elbow one) and I said I’d never pulled it off in sparring, meaning against the elbow we were talking about for the whole thread. One tech against one attack.
Even when you discuss technique you never refer to the basic principles of Aiki.
Nor did you. I did discuss elbows, cos that was the subject of the discussion. If you want to ask me about aiki techs, principles or training methods, feel free to start a new thread, look up some of my many old posts on the subject or PM me.
You either followed the wrong teacher or group or you became discouraged and applied yourself to another art that favours striking. You know yourself whatever it is.
Or one of the other many alternatives of course, is that I continued doing aiki whenever I had time, and also took up wing chun as a core striking art and complement to my aiki, and cross train fairly effectively in shooto and a mix of aikijujutsu koryu and hsingyi-based internal art which allows me to hold to my aiki basics, principles and practise whilst continuing with my kungfu root.
You see, just cos you invent two fairly broad narrow alternatives doesn’t make it so.
It’s also remarkable how you tell me off for casting aspersions at someone else’s teacher (which I didn’t do anywhere) and then in the nextbreath imply that I was following the wrong teacher or group.
The only thing I became discouraged about in aiki was the pomposity. It’s not unique to aiki… as you seem to have demonstrated ably above.
It works for me, for mantis, is a core set of many arts, all of them ancient and practical and developed through experience.
Point/relevance?
There is a bridge to make between learning form in the basics and applying them to free movement… Eventually it became natural.
Nicely put. I agree completely. I would say I’ve gone through similar experience.
And fortunate for me my kungfu includes Aiki…
So since you’re telling us about aiki, perhaps you’d like to tell us which specific aiki principles your kungfu includes?
but i consider Aiki does not include my kungfu as it has greater scope.
So i agree Aiki has some limitation in scope especially as practiced by some, but if you can’t make it work then that is not Aiki’s problem…It doesn’t amtter how long you practice, or your rank or you teach, if you don’t conquer the basics then you don’t make it.
Again, no disagreement.
You are in Japan but you should be rank 4th dan in one of the Aikis or jujitsus if you spent serious 14 years there, but i can 100% you are not because no such type of them i know ever talk like you. No such person would work to high rank and then express such a vacancy or lack of faith.
You are again quite rudely jumping to conclusions. Nowhere did I say I’d been in Japan for 14 years, nor would 14 years guarantee you 4th dan, and if you haven’t met any 4th dans with an attitude like mine (whatever you deem that to be!) you haven’t been out much. I’ve met many 4th dans from many organisations in many MAs without the skill, bearing, humility, ability to pass on knowledge, experience, dedication or basic tech you seem to have decided 4th dans need.
And you’re right, I’m not 4th dan, but I don’t have the same romantic notion of what 4th dan should mean that you seem to have.
So you went to something else or you did not really complete the basics. And i don’t mean rank or take tests again. I mean drill forever til you bridge that gap.
Again your imagination is working overtime. I didn’t go to something else.
I didn’t complete the basics either: I believe there is no completion to the basics… every class I take and every class I teach is for me basics. There are no advanced techs in what I do, there is hard work, patience and sometimes various bodily fluids!
You have to practice techniques til they work, you have to find the way to make them work.
OK, I refer to work on principles to hardwire into your reflexes but since you seem hooked up on tech-based theories I will say this. There are some techs that don’t work on/against/with other techs.
Maybe you became influenced by some Karate striking people. You did mention some kind of those people. Nothing wrong with striking so long as it doesn’t supplant Aiki.
You’re very fond of reading between the lines. Try reading the lines.
Where did I ‘mention some kind of those people’? Look carefully, tell me the context and apply it to what you are saying. I’ve mentioned a lot of things in my life, but without context it’s all hatstand.
I practised three years of karate. That style wasn’t for me, but I didn’t consider myself to be dabbling: I practised diligently, spiritedly and with a willing suspension of disbelief to start to get the basics and apply them before I decided it wasn’t for me. I’ve practised wing chun kungfu for 9 years so I think that’s a more likely influence…
But all that is irrelevant… your statement above suggests that striking arts are inferior to aiki, otherwise there would be no problem with ‘supplanting’ aiki… this is a stupid thing to say. It’s comparing apples and oranges. Most aikidoka over here don’t even think of it as a martial art except in the purest sense of budo being a philosophy, a way of life.
The principes of aiki include a lot of awase (blending/harmony)… who’s to say you can’t blend the budo principes of aiki with kungfu or any other fighting art? You seem to think you can, and yet you seem to think I can’t for no apparent reason…?! 
Striking people tend to keep the body stationary.
This is one of the biggest heaps of **** I’ve ever read on this board. Without context. So please, don’t make an arse of yourself and give us some justification for this statement. Unlike you, I’m not going to rattle off some nonsense attacking what I perceive to be your experience, skills or your MA and write you off as an idiot; I’m here to discuss, so please could explain what you mean by this statement?
aiki moves the body and usually enter.
‘usually enter’? This is wrong. Stated oversimply and dualistically, half of aiki principle is irimi, and half is tenkan: enter when pulled, turn when pushed.
With the body in place, everything else is natural
Aiki takes advantage of motion, just like Taiji.
The same can be said for any other art. So, I have to wonder what gives you the basis to lecture me on aiki…? How long have you trained aiki? What makes you think my aiki experience is wrong and yours is right… now you’ve actually heard an nth of my exp that is?
Look at shirkers vids.
Whatever. I prefer to practise.
Elbows are deflected just as easily as blocked. In either case it easily becomes grappling.
please see my post to Red5 above.
It’s ok by me for disbelievers..
Disbelievers just mean there is a lot of fodder out there.
LMAO at the hard guy A-TEAM style finish!
I’m not disputing that. I am talking about elbows.
I was just pointing out that anyone who is good at something can make a technique stick. Muy Thai guys are really good at sticking low kicks and knees, Boxers are real good at landing punches. My main point is that “someone that is good at” sort of makes the discussion moot since they are “good” at it.
But to me blocking anything is of secondary importance to getting good position, staying aggressive, keeping up the pressure and dropping my opponent. Those are the things that I always work for.
Agreed. The discussion was about throwing elbows and then blocking them later in the thread. I’ll block when I can, especially when it gets me the things you listed.
Sometimes that positioning lends itself to an opportune elbow
right, and like any other technique, it’s those oppurtune moments, and your trainng that allow them to connect.
The fact that they are usually from closer range makes them more difficult to block, no? Blocked many headbutts?
my success rate with elbows, and the success rate against me is often because I am tangled up with my opponent in some way and the elbow makes sense since it is a short ranged weapon. I’ve never personally seen it delivered successfully, consistantly at anything but really close range. Sure, I could agree shorter range techniques can be harder to block.
How many times have people thrown an elbow at you and it’s bounced off without damaging you because it didn’t have the power? More likely that they didn’t have the positioning or the reach, no?
plenty actually, and not jus in freindly sparring matches. I’ve seen plenty of them thrown, and seen some of those used well, but like many other techniques they can come out lacking. You could call them easier to use, you have a built in hard point in the elbow, and all you have to do technically is swing your arm after you bend it, but you and I both know it’s usually more then that that makes a technique dangerous, fast and even more effective. A punch is easy to generate power with, even thrown sloppily, but if you know how to refine it and be precise, you can generate a lot more power and do a lot more damage.
that the elbow should be quite effective.
I guess I differ in believing its somewhat effective. Of course I train to deal with the elbow, as I’m sure plenty of others do, and my experiences may be different from yours.
You know we’re agreeing on most things.
But I would still maintain that a badly thrown elbow is a distancing or positional problem, not anything inherent in the difficulty of throwing elbows powerfully. Of course, getting that good close range positioning is gonna be difficult in the first place.
One thing I have to wonder about in your post is:
‘Of course I train to deal with the elbow,’
Training to deal with the elbow, same as anything else, cannot be done effectively unless you’re taught how to throw an elbow. It’s like typical aikidoka who train against a stepping punch (an attack based on a forward spear/stick/sword thrust) and have time to say ‘And as the punch comes in…’ before it does! And the typical wingchunners who say, ‘And against a hook you do this’ and demonstrate against the wettest hook ever thrown!
I’m not saying you’re doing these things, but generally if you don’t train the elbow (or regularly train with someone who has), you can’t train to deal with the elbow.
I know you did (do?) WC, and in my WC we train the elbow a lot. Do you?
Wolfen, Wolfen, wherefore art thou Wolfen?!
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