Kung fu elbows vs. Muay Thai elbows

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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From another thread…

Originally posted by KC Elbows
For the record, I agree that boxing is good striking, that muay thai has good knees, but in my opinion, kali and a small groups of kung fu styles make the best use of elbows. Anyway, just commenting on the elbow knee thing- I like muay thai knees, but prefer kung fu elbows.

KCE or anyone else familiar with CMA and Muay Thai, how would you compare and contrast the use of elbows in both?

Also, do you spar your elbows full contact? If so, what’s your protocol for this?

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When I was in longfist, we didn’t use elbows anywhere near as much as we did in muay thai.

As far as the mechanics of the strike, the wrist wasn’t bent, as we do it in muay thai on cross and diagonal elbows.

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why did u quit longfist sevenstar?

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The elbows in CMA I believe like most other things seems to be focussed more on creating openings as well as being intended with a follow up strike then the Mauy Thai counterpart. What I mean by this is that while the Mauy Thai uses the elbow as an effective strike, it lacks the follow up ability of another strike other than changing to a different move altogether. Like pulling back and striking again. Of course, we should look at the fact that it is not often then we can actually block a mauy Thai elbow so followup strikes isn’t really nessessary.
However, for a CMA elbow, when the strike has been blocked or deflected, the move actually changes itself into something else that, rather than use the shoulder as a pivot ( which the elbowing needs ), it uses the elbow itself to deliever something like a snap punch.
In a way, in order to execute this kind of continuing strike, the first strike’s power cannot be “everything you’ve got” so to speak. Becuase if so, the time it takes for you follow through to your next move will be delayed.
There is a small section in the chinese bubeizhi that says " When the hand is subdued, the elbow follows. When the elbow is subdued, the hand follows." This shows that in CMA, the elbow and the hand is considered an interlinked weapon. Rather than a JUST seperate weapon depending on the distance ( cause it is also the case in both Thai and Chinese martial arts ).

Ok, I am in a hurry to go out. So I will need to end it here despite the fact that I wish to write more.
Please feel free to finish it for me.

tata

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it lacks the follow up ability of another strike other than changing to a different move altogether.

Maybe because they rely on it as a KO weapon. Which it is. So they don’t expect another strike coming, since the opp. is lying unconscious on the floor.

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I don’t really think that’s accurate. I’ve seen plenty of elbow combinations in MT that all flow from one into another. I know Khun Kao has several.

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TCMA elbows vary with styles and users. Chen style elbows, hung gar elbows, wing chun elbows differ from each other IMO,
in methods of energy generation and usage.

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Well, I don’t know squat about CMA Elbows, but let me clear up some things for all of you regarding Muay Thai elbow strikes…

Muay Thai’s elbow strikes are its closest range striking weapons (for the ring). Elbows are often thrown from the Clinch.

Elbow strikes in Muay Thai serve MANY purposes. They are not solely intended for KTFO’ing your opponent, though that is one possible (and likely) outcome. They can be used to destroy your opponents weapons and guard, and to attack the body to destroy an opponents wind.

Many elbow techniques are used as an “offensive” defense. You block many strikes with your elbows, such as punches, round kicks, knees, etc. Thai boxers like to attack an opponents defense. Unlike many styles of fighting where a fighter moves at angles and uses feints and flurries to create an opening, a common Muay Thai tactic is to actually attack your opponents guard to hurt it. A Thai boxer will kick, punch, and knee his opponents defense to wear it down, thus creating the opening of attack. Elbows are obviously a great tool in this style of attack.

Another unmentioned purpose of elbow strikes is to cut. In fact, this is the goal behind Muay Thai’s elbow strikes more often than not. Fighters attempt to cut their opponent with elbow strikes more often than trying to knock them out.

Also, EVERY strike has MULTIPLE follow ups. Muay Thai elbows are NOT an exception to this rule. If I throw an elbow that either misses or does not end the fight, I am not without options. It doesn’t mean that all I am able to do is return to my position and hope for something else. There are MULTITUDES of follow-up strikes.

Granted, many of the follow-up strikes for a MT Elbow strike are additional elbow strikes, but there are knee strikes, arm strikes, punches, backfists, kicks, and the clinch.

Some techniques, such as the backfist, are not commonly seen employed, but this is more due to what works most effectively in the ring as opposed to the non-ring versions of Muay Thai. The backfist, as an example, is largely ineffective in the ring due to a fighters fists being gloved.

Khun Kao

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Khun Kao Charuad, I believe you have mistaken what I was saying. For those who know how to use elbows in CMA, you should be able to understand what I said did not imply that MT people will be incapacitated once their elbow is stopped. I am sure there are plenty of moves that can be used to continue the fight until one has won.
What I meant was that MT moves does not have as much continuation of the same attack that the elbow started with. A move used after another move does not mean a “follow up move” as far as the CMA implication of the term implys. Either the next move must use another limb or the same arm must be pulled back for a second assault. Sure, there are some exceptions to this. But generally speaking, the strategy used isn’t as emphasised in this.

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My thought is that most thai fighters will actually hit you with thier elbows. Whereas most kung fu practitioners will say thier elbows are too dangerous and then show you a tiger form or something.

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Sparring…

Who here spars full contact with elbows?

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i havent trained muay thai, but in Xing Yi we use the elbows in as many angles to strike as the MT guys, if not more. Its VERY powerfull, personally i train some of them on concrete wall at full power. In fact, i say with XY mechanics its probably more powerfull than the MT stuff, i know cos of the body alignment and all blah blah - you might doubt it - but i can show you if youre around - like i throw a elbow like MT guy do - then i throw a elbow like a XY guy do - the XY one is stronger cos XY mechanics are more power oriented than MT mechanics, so to say. Of course im not categoricly saying that implies the XY stuff is always better, but theres no doubt its stronger, AND if i thought MT was a better style id be training MT right now and not XY.

the CMA elbows too obviously serve many purposes, like what the MT dude said about his MT elbows. We obviously use them as offensive defense too, we obviously have follow ups to them too, etc.

Here is the main difference:
We dont work clinching as much as MT people do.

AND
that guy that says boxing is the ultimate in striking is a complete fool.

thank you for listening :smiley:

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let me add, the XY stance and guard are different from the MT stance and guard too, so there is another functional/mechanical and fighting applicative difference. Also the rest of the striking arsenal (other punches, other kicks, etc) from XY is obviously different from the MT arsenal, so that too changes the way we use elbows (as in together with the rest of the stuff)

If you mean by full contact using the elbows at full power on sparring then we dont, think of the huge cuts that would happen, son. (not to mention other worse damage that can come)

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Originally posted by Xebsball
If you mean by full contact using the elbows at full power on sparring then we dont, think of the huge cuts that would happen, son. (not to mention other worse damage that can come)
Then how do you know what works and what doesn’t?

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Knifedude,

How do i know?

Power-wise: Like i said, its very powerfull, one can test and compare to other striking techniques and see how much damage it does

Hitting-wise: We use always the same structure and footwork when fighitn XY. The use of elbows is the same as for example a beng quan, only changing the distance. Now for the distance, like i said - footwork - if you step closer to the oponent or find yourself closer to the oponent, you use the closer range weapon - elbows, knees, shoulders, head.

Praticly-in-fight-wise: I used a elbow on a fight with my brother LOL :smiley: im kidding on this one cos i didnt have any training at all at that time.
Other people from our school have had fights (its no faily tale) and they have tested what works and what doesnt, no one here is stupid to do what doesnt work. If youre asking if i know of elbows being used on this mentioned fights, youre right, i dont recall hearing. Ive heard of our knees, punches, forearms, palm-strikes and kicks being used though, with efficiency.

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Kung Fu Elbows

Here’s a great example of a traditional Kung Fu form based on elbow attacks - 36 elbows - this videos has some really solid applications and training techniques. Check it out.:smiley:

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Wing Chun has nice elbows, and we trained them on the MT pads, but because of the difficulty in employing them in full or near-full contact sparring, I could not bring them up to the same level of development as my other strikes. My use of the elbows is limited to opportunistic strikes. I’m interested to hear some ideas for sparring with the elbows, but since we didn’t use the facemask-style headgear, it was difficult.
PS our downward elbow strike does involve a wrist bend for greater range of motion.

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I have sparred and competed with full-contact elbows.

Its not a regular thing, because elbows hurt like mother ****ers and break things.

:eek:

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I think the distinction the CMA people are trying to make between CMA and MT elbow combos would be the same between MT and Silat elbow combos which you MTers may be familiar with through any JKD exposure.

Consider a silat combo off a horizontal elbow which leads into the puter kepala movement. The “spirit” in which that combo was generated is alot different than how a boxing combo is generated. But both are good of course.

That said, I haven’t seen many CMA styles practice this kind of spirit; most have been more like the boxing type.

Maybe these will be interesting:

http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/artsofcombat/foldunfold.htm

http://www.whitecraneinstitute.com/artsofcombat/elbowontheinside.htm

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IMO

there’s not a whole lot of difference. however, i’ve seen kung fu use entire body momentum elbows than i’ve seen muay thai use them.
such as closing distance and stepping almost through the opponent while striking with the elbow. the elbows i’ve seen in MT are usually done from the clinch with only shoulder or waist momentum behind it.