Documentary: "CHOKE"

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Just downloaded and watched “Choke”. It’s a documentary mostly on Rickson Gracie and the Vale Tudo back in 1995. It profiles some of the high profile fighters of that event, but primarily focuses on Rickson Gracie and follows him around months before the tournament and while it is happening. Very good documentary I must say. I appreciate the behind the scene’s footage and the thoughts of the fighters as the events are unfolding. For example after Rickson’s first fight it seemed to me that there was a little bit of panic in the dressing room after the fight, even though Rickson won, the people around him were agitated about something, and Rickson was high strung too, but this is a natural reaction from being in a event like this.

Like one of the reviews said of the film, it humanizes Rickson Gracie as a normal person, instead of a superhuman. I appreciate his dedication to the art he loves, and also the sophistication of it also, it’s very efficient and effective for the purpose it serves.

Has anyone on here seen the Film? Any comments?

James

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Hi James

I have that documentary and yes it is very good.

Some highlights/observations

  1. It shows that GJJ is very much a family affair. The footage of Ricksons son (Kron ?) at the start where he spins around and armbars his dad flawlessly shows just how important learning from a young age is. Then there is the footage of helio (about 80) and Rickson rolling. This shows that BJJ (contrary to what some people claim) has a long life span and may even contribute to longevity. Then there is the relationship between Ricksons brother (royler) and him. This demonstrates how having brothers who train means a constant supply of training partners and coaches.

2)It shows how the guillotine and sprawl is a very effective and often underestimated choke especially against someone whose game relies on takedowns. The Japanese shootfighter gets caught with it against the Thai boxer and then the Japanese shootfighter almost catches Rickson with it in a later match. FWIW IMV the panic in the gracie camp was over whether in escaping from the guillotine Rickson had damaged his neck.

3)I especially like the footage of Rickson training on the beach. He appears totally comfortable and in control of his own body – a kind of mastery that most people – even ‘sporty’ people – will never attain.

  1. It is often said that Rickson is the greatest living practitioner of BJJ. I don’t know if this is true – especially given some of the guys around now like Leo viera and Marcelo Garcia. How well he would do against todays current crop of bjj savy mma fighters like silva, crocop fedor etc I also don’t know. But he has proven himself at his peak and against some the of the best on offer at the time.
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Thanks for the reviews. It’s now in my Netflix queue.

Regards,

  • kj
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Good comments Nick.

I like the part of the documentary where Rickson is talking about body feel through the art and how it becomes second nature and flowing, very similar to Wing Chun. The was one fighting scene were Rickson moves instantly and so fast when the opening is there to get on the guys back from a side mount I had to rewind and appreciate it again, it was nice to watch. Wing Chun and BJJ are very much related in philosophy and concept IMO.

As for him doing well today, from my brief observation of him just from this tape, his stand up skills need work for sure. In some of the fights Rickson and the other fighters would be close enough to each other that they made contact with their outstretched fists, but nobody did anything against Rickson when this happened. I know that people are scarred to get their leg swept, but all of the fighters ended up on the ground anyways. I think once the fight ends up on the ground, Rickson could still compete in today’s world, he’s only 40 so that’s not old. But I believe that today MMA stand up fighters are more aware of the BJJ game and would take him out faster than the guys back then.

James

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the gracies really don’t do alot of standup - it’s not what they are trying to accomplish. Whe we asked royce about striking, this is what he said: I’m not an mma guy - I do bjj.

They train some striking as they compete in mma, but my guess is that what they do is very minimal.

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Like most who train BJJ seriously, I saw this very early on in my BJJ career. I have the DVD.

Other good clips available on the web are:

A Rickson/Royler demo at Pride, arguably one of the best demos of Gracie JJ available.

For MMA, anything of Kazushi Sakuraba (who has beaten four Gracies in MMA) and Genki Sudo (freakishly talented and spectacular, plus way crazy striking and breakdancing). These guys are my faves, YMMV.

All this stuff (and a lot more) is on subfighter.com.

Wing Chun and BJJ are very much related in philosophy and concept IMO.

I seem to remember you got all upset last time I tried to tell you this.

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I don’t remember if I got upset about the WC & BJJ sharing many concepts, maybe it was because you added a outside source to your WC, that may have bothered me at that time. About 6 or 7 months ago I watched some GJJ instructional tapes and made the comment that it reminded me of WC for the ground, very efficent and sophisticated, but I still see the concepts inherient in WC in GJJ ground work, and feel no need to actually have to go out of the system and learn GJJ. If one looks hard enough they can find all of it in the WC system, IMO.

James

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Not to name drop but-

I recently got a chance to roll with ricardo viera - six time world bjj champ and no 1 in his weight class (so im told). We rolled for about five minutes and i got submitted about once every minute.
Observations - he didnt ‘fight’ for position - as soon as he felt me put up any resistance he just flowed straight onto the next position. Also he didnt seem to mind turtling up when i passed his guard- he very smoothly just rolled over and back into his guard when i tried to take his back.

I also recently got a chance to do some ground work with Emin Boztepe. He showed me some of his techniques (anti grappling) from the bottom when the top man tries to pass your guard by underhooking one leg and pushing it over to the other side. He has some very nice moves and has worked out all the various different variations and how to continue striking depending on what the top man does to try and counter.

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So then Nick, do you think Emin’s Anti Grappling techniques are effective, and is there a limit to the effectiveness depending on the skills of the Grappler.

We also do allot of Anitgrappling stuff in our kwoon, I will have to put some on a clip soon for all to see.

James

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We also do allot of Anitgrappling stuff

So do we, it’s called Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Greco-Roman wrestling and there are clips of it all over the web.

Why do strikers seem to have to have “anti-grappling”, but grapplers not see a need for “anti-striking”?

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So then, was that Sifu Rick’s original idea behind learning and teaching BJJ, so that he could teach students methods to counter grapplers, or did he want to expand his knowledge & repertoire into an area he thought TWC lacked?

To answer your question, I believe the grapplers think they don’t need an “anti-striking” strategy as they are confident in their entry methods and delivery systems, just like some of us feel the same about our WC methods against grapplers. The logical thing to do is to realize that the WC concepts can be utilized equally while standing up or on the ground, but not in exactly the same way. Also, if your belief is that most self defense situations end up on the ground, then you will train there the most, if you believe most end upright, then you will train there more. I believe anything can happen but that ending up on the ground is more of a liability due to lack of mobility (e.g. it’s easier to run away while standing up than lying on the floor), so I will concentrate on maintaining my balance and not being taken down, but become familiar with methods and strategies if that scenario is not possible to maintain.

James

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Originally posted by sihing
[B]The logical thing to do is to realize that the WC concepts can be utilized equally while standing up or on the ground, but not in exactly the same way. Also, if your belief is that most self defense situations end up on the ground, then you will train there the most, if you believe most end upright, then you will train there more. I believe anything can happen but that ending up on the ground is more of a liability due to lack of mobility (e.g. it’s easier to run away while standing up than lying on the floor), so I will concentrate on maintaining my balance and not being taken down, but become familiar with methods and strategies if that scenario is not possible to maintain.

James [/B]

Very true. Sensitivity stays the same on the ground as it does standing up. Just because I’m on the ground doesn’t mean that I’m at a dissadvantage. I still have my Wing Chun, whether I’m in a phone booth, a boat, an alleyway, sitting in a chair, swimming, etc.

Peace,
Couch

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Don’t want to get into any more Emin Boztepe bashing - have already done more than my share - (and in truth the guy definitely has some good all around fighting skills)…

but Andrew Nerlich is right.

Anti-grappling techniques - whether they be using strikes and whatever to avoid going to the ground…or they consist of moves on the ground that enable strikers to strike - and thereby reverse, escape, or neutralize the grappler…

These things are very limited in scope.

Putting striking/kicking and grappling skills together is the way to go, imo…but betting the house on striking/kicking and anti-grappling skills - against a real good grappler…

that’s a 50/50 hit-or-miss proposition at best.

Not good odds.

Learn how to grapple.

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For James…

James,

You really think after watching some GJJ instructionals that your WC has ALL the ground work of GJJ in it?

Really?

Somehow, that just doesn’t sound right.

I think you might want to visit a BJJ school in your area and see if what you think from looking at video matches the reality of trying it out against someone at say a blue or purple belt range in BJJ. In that way you can truly evaluate if you can put your theory to practice just in the introductory classes or in training with one of the instructors to compare notes. Again not as a “challenge” but for you to test out your beliefs.

Unless you are training constantly on the ground and dealing with positions, transitions, escapes etc. I don’t see how you can be as effective on the ground as a BJJ guy is as you may be in standup with your Wing Chun.

Do you constantly practice submissions as part of your Wing Chun training?

Yes there may very well be the similarity of sensitivity in terms of how a BJJ person will capitalize on openings, stiffness and resistence–however training those things on the ground constantly and developing the feel for it are probably VERY different things.

I think you’d agree that it is not just concepts alone, but the training methodology and application of techniques via repeated use that will make the difference in having the ability to translate theory into applied skill.

Originally posted by sihing
[B]I don’t remember if I got upset about the WC & BJJ sharing many concepts, maybe it was because you added a outside source to your WC, that may have bothered me at that time. About 6 or 7 months ago I watched some GJJ instructional tapes and made the comment that it reminded me of WC for the ground, very efficent and sophisticated, but I still see the concepts inherient in WC in GJJ ground work, and feel no need to actually have to go out of the system and learn GJJ. If one looks hard enough they can find all of it in the WC system, IMO.

James [/B]

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The documentary is excellent. The son was Rockson, who died tragically in a motorcycle accident a few years ago (eerily like Rolls Gracie, Rickson’s mentor, dying in a hang-gliding accident many year ago). It seems to have taken a lot out of Rickson, as can certainly be imagined, and so that documentary is especially poignant.

There are some good highlight videos of various fighters on sherdog.com as well.

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Re: For James…

Originally posted by planetwc
[B]James,

You really think after watching some GJJ instructionals that your WC has ALL the ground work of GJJ in it?

Really?

Somehow, that just doesn’t sound right.

I think you might want to visit a BJJ school in your area and see if what you think from looking at video matches the reality of trying it out against someone at say a blue or purple belt range in BJJ. In that way you can truly evaluate if you can put your theory to practice just in the introductory classes or in training with one of the instructors to compare notes. Again not as a “challenge” but for you to test out your beliefs.

Unless you are training constantly on the ground and dealing with positions, transitions, escapes etc. I don’t see how you can be as effective on the ground as a BJJ guy is as you may be in standup with your Wing Chun.

Do you constantly practice submissions as part of your Wing Chun training?

Yes there may very well be the similarity of sensitivity in terms of how a BJJ person will capitalize on openings, stiffness and resistence–however training those things on the ground constantly and developing the feel for it are probably VERY different things.

I think you’d agree that it is not just concepts alone, but the training methodology and application of techniques via repeated use that will make the difference in having the ability to translate theory into applied skill. [/B]

David,
I think you have misunderstood some of what I said. Basically when I watched the instructional GJJ tapes featuring Royce and Rorian Gracie, I noticed, mostly in a concept way, things that reminded me of WC, the difference being the GJJ is done while on the ground. When fighting on the ground the GJJ people are still “trapping” your limbs, and setting up positions for themselves that make it harder to escape their grasps on you. They also rely heavily on feeling and sensitivity. This sounds and looks allot like the WC I practice. Now could an experienced WC teacher/practitioner if they had the time and really wanted to do it, without ever seeing or knowing anything about grappling or BJJ, develop a grappling fighting method based on their WC experience and knowledge? Yes I think they could. It would be a large undertaking and take allot of experimentation and development but it could be done. Now they would probably use the same principals and concepts that WC uses while standing up, and adapt them to the ground game, only efficient and effective methods that didn’t require superhuman physical attributes would be used. Eventually it may look allot like BJJ.

Also in I don’t think I said that I would be a match for a skilled BJJ practitioner on the ground. I’d rather fight standing as I believe this is a safer place to be, and if I had more time and motivation I would practice more grappling with people in the kwoon, but to tell you the truth I’m not really that interested in spending too much time rolling around on the floor.

James

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ok

Hi James,

Thanks for the clarification–I see where you are coming from.

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So then, was that Sifu Rick’s original idea behind learning and teaching BJJ, so that he could teach students methods to counter grapplers, or did he want to expand his knowledge & repertoire into an area he thought TWC lacked?

Definitely option B.

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Cool

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There is a huge difference between BJJ and WC.

BJJ has no centerline theory, since, in a large number of positions, you want to be off centerline.
Any “trapping” you might find in BJJ is quite different than that you will find in WC.
BJJ is primarily a grapplng art, suplemented by striking.
BJJ trains from 17 different positions on the ground and has thousands of techniques generated from those 17 positions. WC has no equivalent to most of those positions.
The ultimate BJJ objective is to attain one of two positions, mount or back mount, neither of which are present in WC.
Most of the submission finishes in BJJ have to be done on the ground and won’t work standing up.
Much of BJJ’s ground striking is completely different from that of WC.

As far as “anti-striking”, grapplers do have that- the clinch and the shoot.