I think a Richard Simmons “Sweatin’ to the Oldies” video tape would probably be best. 
Mun hung- and By the Time I get to Phoenix- will be not only an oldie but a slowy- like the traffic from Tempe to Phoenix- always under construction! But it’s great for structure and centering!!
Maybe some of these posters are actually right.
Instead of finding new ways to train and improve ourselves we should just go back to the way it all started out. It was good enough for them so it must be just right for us.
After all - we should forget Wing Chun. Go back to the old school and just pick up a rock and beat someone. Why improve on the Caveman style of fighting. ‘In Fighting’ was never needed by the Neanderthal man so why practice what is not needed.
Sheesh! :rolleyes:
Instead of finding new ways to train and improve ourselves we should just go back to the way it all started out.
Maybe we should learn first what we KNOW is good for wing chun (ie mastering the forms..getting chi sau to a proficent level etc..), before we GUESS what could be good for it ???
Id rather know im going forward, as opposed to guessing. The means to achieve the objective you want may already be in wing chun, so why reinvent it of you dont yet fully understand it?
Im not saying that it is bad to do speed ball practice, but looking at this objectivitly.
S.Teebas
S.Teebas
I agree wholeheartedly with what you are saying.
I also believe that if you are training, regardless of what you do to train, it is a much better thing than NOT training.
I guess my main issue is with people holding themselves so high that they refuse to see any possible use for any other form of training that can advance results in whatever you are seeking to improve upon.
Honestly - who cares if someone trains just like Yip Man, or trains like a mirror image of their sifu. Who really cares if thier form perfectly matches my form, etc.. The main question is this:
Is YOUR Wing Chun working for YOU? Will it save YOUR life or your FAMILY’S life when necessary?
No more, no less.
Kevin
Continued blessings in your life and your training.
The key to understanding is to open your mind and your heart and then the eyes will follow.
i know i have a photo of it somewhere but i just can’t seem to find it. it is of wong shun leung with a tennis ball one in the back ground, unfortunately i can not say for sure that he used it though.
i know we use a floor to ceiling made up of a tennis ball & i know our sifu has used it to, i can say that if he found it useful then i have no arguements as to its value.
having said that, the way it is used does differ from a normal one in that it is only used for a type of accuracy training, the normal use of an f to c bag does have inherint risks of training bad habits some of which include problems with footwork, posture & a tendency to over extend in the shoulders.
just like my time on here training should still be found to be fun so for those who wish to use it - enjoy, just know that some bad habits may develop.
vts
to yuanfen
'Speedbags?
Someone sez:You tryin to say yer WingChun has no need for reflex, speed, rhythm, nor hand-eye coordination?
Someone else asks:
Does anyone know if yip man used a speed ball?
With anonymity and skimpy profiles- hard to tell… are you sure you guys are dong wing chun?’
‘Ok Ok Ok - I just joined the crowd… the majority cant all be wong or ho or yip. Therfore “soon” I will change my wing chun training regimen to speed bags, heavy bag. tied down bag, medicine ball. rope skipping, bench pressing, jogging, reading the internet more, triathlons, steer wrestling, loaded push ups, chin ups,
heavy hand and heavy leg weight attachments. Maybe head guards, shin guards and play on the boom box Ronstadt’s Show me the Way to san jose. After all she was a Tucson. Arizona gal.Hey Yip are ya going my way? Watch out for
yuanfen’s “wing chun mo” (watch out for the new Carradine video) soon to be released!It might even get written up in BB.’
i find it funny that you critisis me when you seem to have decided to make fun of the way it seems the vast majority seem to train-be it right or wrong.
it is also no wonder you agree with whippy’s style of posting because again it seems you would rather make these smug remarks & make fun of peoples ideas rather than offering an answer or reason as to why this type of training may/may not be beneficial to ones wing chun training.
a little hypocritcal don’t you think.
vts
Replying to vingtsunstudent
to yuanfen post:
Look- I don’t truncate your name or whipping hand’s name or anyones name or make presumptions about their appearance.
A list involves discussion of what people say- less who they are.
It is fairly obvious that I don’t think that speed bags and hanging bags are essential to a good wing chun routine.If you don’t think that is obvious please re read my posts. There is no hypocrisy there. If anyone thinks that something will help them
that is their business but there is so much to do in wing chun development that spare time IMO is best spent on wing chun
except for individual specific strengthening or therapeutic supplements or personal adjustments to one’s condition. location, availability of good wing chun instruction…matters over which understandably they may have no control. Sharing wing chun and attempting to give reasonable advice has never been a problem with me.
You yourself in an early post if memory serves were bemoaning that not enough people were really doing good wing chun from your perspective. Hypocrisy/ Not in this end.
Positioning and timing are at the core of wing chun development
and wing chun’s answer to development of motions- right speed and right power at the right time and place is chi sao chi sao chi sao- not speed bags and other boxing paraphernalia which are
suitable for boxing moves and boxing purposes.
Internet communications miss tone… but the claims of smugness is in your own imagination. i stick to what is actually said.
The original thread question was whether people use speed bags etc…my own answer is obviously no I don’t. But if someone doesn’t have a chi sao partner they can learn from they can bounce balls and hit them etc for development of what we call “self timing”… eye hand coordination-useful but no substitute for chi sao where you timing is developed in relationship to someone else’s timing..
So best not to attach labels of smugness or questioning motivation- just stick to what is said.My style of writing warts and all is mine and I avoid name truncating, making fun of people as individuals or usage of four letter words or uncivil refernces to one’s anatomy. No anonymity here either. In my profile see
web site reference: <www.azwingchun.com> And in my intro.one of my first posts I explained that yuanfen was shorter and more convenient than my real full name which I gave at the time. A slightly shorter name is on my web site.
cool yuanfen
you haver just done all that i asked.
if you wish to disagree at least supply a reason(which you have now done)
yes it was odvious that you disagreed with there use(as do i to a certain degree, which i at least explained in my earlier post) but offered no reason why, this is the same reason i have a problem with whippy, i can see that both you & he have something to offer but as i have said before the fact you just right peoples ideas off without the hint of a reason as to why gives, at least me, an idea that you may think your knowledge is in some way superior.
if you look back at my posts you will find that if i disagree with what someone says i ALWAYS offer a reason as to why i think this way.(my way may not be right either but at least offer the rason)
in return that is all i ask & i will have no reason to be rude back.
please tell me if you still don’t understand where i am coming from & i will try to explain again.
there are people who are here who are odviously trying to learn as they must not be being taught correctly(judging from some of the questions asked) & i believe that unless we are willing to answer them with what we believe to be true then it is no piont posting here.
yes i believe wing chun at the moment is in a bit of a sad state, my reason for this is to do with all the sensitve new age ideals of the world, if you know what i mean(no comparison of skills or fighting if you like)
many teachers these days have never even been in a fight let alone the fact that many of yip man’s students who are now supposedly grandmasters(with student who have students) never even fought either yet they tell people ‘you use this like this or you do this like this’ but again if you understand my meaning here how the hell do they really know if they have not done.
again don’t take any of this the wrong way as i am sure that not all who have never fought have nothing to offer, it’s just my prefernce to also be with a teacher who has walked the walk.
vts
Jeff, if you want to try out a really cheap floor to ceiling ball , make one out of a tennis ball, suspended & anchored with the heaviest rubber bands you can find doubled or tripled to increase their strength, then held to the ball with tape.
Have a crack & if you find it useful then good for you, just try & ensure you’re practising good WC technique. I stopped using a floor to ceiling or heavy bag when I started practising WC as I felt it was enforcing old habits that I was having enough trouble getting rid of. 4 yrs later & I’ve recently started using a heavy bag to work on the body mechanics of my WC punch, & have contemplated using the tennis ball, but at the moment feel that it’s not what I want to do yet, maybe in another year or two I’ll include it, maybe never.
I used to use a tennis ball (I called it my co-ordination ball) regularly before I started WC, I did a little bit of boxing 15 odd yrs ago & found it invaluable as it moved bloody quickly & after a month or two of using that my hand speed & accuracy would improve markedly (& it was dirt cheap).
I suppose I’d have to agree with a number of posters that the main danger would be training ‘bad WC’. I know that I used to use it to generate speed for a fast distance closing jab or jab/straight combo to get close enough to put in a power punch (hook/cross/straight etc). Not what I’m trying to achieve with my WC as when I use a jab/straight combo on most of my Sihings I then to end up getting hammered %-), apart from the ocassional one that I catch out with hand speed (not often, & not more than once or twice). I supppse my philosophy now is that I’d rather get close & in a stronger position with my WC & take an opponents out with a more powerful close range punch than trying to pop them half a dozen times relying on sheer speed.
Good luck & good training
Mark
I would also like to point out that many posters immediately jump on the ‘Using Non-Wing Chun Forms or exercises can promote bad Wing Chun habits’ bandwagon.
Since when did training pure Wing Chun form and exercise guarantee NO bad habits?
I think it should be a general rule of thumb that in ANYTHING that you do regarding Wing Chun, make sure you are not building or fostering bad habits. Regardless of traditional or modern training methods.
Just a thought…
Kevin
Originally posted by Spectre
Since when did training pure Wing Chun form and exercise guarantee NO bad habits?
Given a sifu that actually KNOWS and UNDERSTANDS Wing Chun, and a student willing to TRAIN seriously, there is a guarantee.
The question is how many sifus actually KNOW and UNDERSTAND, as opposed to filling in the holes with meaningless exercises, such as those upon which this thread is based?
And how many students are actually willing to TRAIN seriously enough, as opposed to needing to make their training fun and exciting, and filling in that gap with meaningless exercises, such as those upon which this thread is based?
We have an abundance of sifus filling in the gaps with speed bags, sparring, philosophy, and an abundance of students wanting to play that game. Few of the others.
And how many students are actually willing to TRAIN seriously enough, as opposed to needing to make their training fun and exciting, and filling in that gap with meaningless exercises, such as those upon which this thread is based?
So do you TRAIN in Wing Chun because you enjoy it, or because you have to?
Please show me the Wing Chun Kuit that says training with a speedbag is meaningless. Exactly who speaks for Wing Chun as a whole to actually say what is meaningless and what is not?
I do agree with you Whipping Hand about sifus filling in gaps and not truly knowing themselves what the difference is between individuality and a bad habit.
Between those that train to the point of futility, and those that do not train in a meaningful manner, where is the common ground and who defines useful or meaningless?
Kevin
I use a Muay Thai bag because it’s so big and heavy I know if my kicks are hard plus I get good feed back from punches so I know I have a solid horse. The heavy bag has been used in WC and Kung Fu for years. I’ve got books with pictures of WSL using one and in some pictures of Yip Man’s various classes I’ve seen them as well. Usually, they appeared to be just bags filled with saw dust or sand or something and hung from the ceiling by a rope or chain.
Originally posted by Spectre
So do you TRAIN in Wing Chun because you enjoy it, or because you have to?
Neither
Please show me the Wing Chun Kuit that says training with a speedbag is meaningless.
Who wrote the Kuit?
Exactly who speaks for Wing Chun as a whole to actually say what is meaningless and what is not?
Those who KNOW and UNDERSTAND.
Between those that train to the point of futility, and those that do not train in a meaningful manner, where is the common ground
There isn’t one.
who defines useful or meaningless?
Those who KNOW and UNDERSTAND.
Ya know what Whipping Hand - as usual I look at your answer and just want to shove your arrogance right where it belongs.
But…
Instead I thought about your answer long and hard and to some strange level I think I understand what you are trying to say. I am sure that you will correct me if I am wrong however.
If an individual KNOWS and UNDERSTANDS that what they are doing, REGARDLESS of how they learned or obtained thier skill, is working for them absolutely, then that is the only true gauge they need to worry about.
So don’t worry about what this sifu or that sifu thinks or says about what you are doing because once the circle comes back to the beginning, the individual is always his own student, sifu, and master.
Kevin
Originally posted by Spectre
Ya know what Whipping Hand - as usual I look at your answer and just want to shove your arrogance right where it belongs.
I know. One question: Who is the BEST person in recognizing arrogance?
As for what you stated above, not exactly.
Spectre sez:
(1)Please show me the Wing Chun Kuit that says training with a speedbag is meaningless. Exactly who speaks for Wing Chun as a whole to actually say what is meaningless and what is not? …
(2) So don’t worry about what this sifu or that sifu thinks or says about what you are doing because once the circle comes back to the beginning, the individual is always his own student, sifu, and master.
One has to distinguish between Yip Man’s wing chun and things like JKD and Wing Chun Do which have slight episodical connections with the art. Sure one can 'fight" with many arts and there are good fighters who have had no martial arts. But if learning wing chun is the objective one needs a knowledgeable teacher. Without a knowledgeable guide you can be strong, fast
etc but you dont learn wing chun. Even the kuen kuit are not
self evident biblical truths which newbies can learn wing chun from. Interestingly, Wong Shon Leung (see David Peterson’s work on WSL) said this about Yip Man and his teaching of wc:
“Grandmaster Yip man hada different attitude to that which I have. He used to believe that teaching one good student would be better than teaching ten bad ones. Hence, he would not spend too much time
with a student whom he thought not worthy of his time. This is why some teachers of wing chun teach in different manners. From Yip Man’s one word of explanation they may gotten the wrong meaning which they now pass on. Their grasp of the ideas which Yip Man gave depended very much on their intelligence,
attendance in class, and so, on their training attitude. This not a criticism of Yip man, but rather it reflects
the attitude of the time which was very traditional.” (p.59)
This helps explain the confusions about the art in moving from its roots (from good food to chop suey)and is magnified
by the incomplete capacities of internet debates on the internet.
There is a difference in learning the depth of the sitar as a source of music and strumming a guitar in imitation- though the latter can give pleasure-. The self taught are unlikely to understand the world of the former. Saying this is not smugness or arrogance-
but saying something very specific to newbies- spend time and effort in seeking out a knowledgeable wing chun teacher if you want to learn wing chun. Sure you can be on your own- but as in a relay race only after proper training and the proper passing of the baton can you take off showing your own skill development..
Yuanfen
First off I would like to thank you for your thoughtful post. I fully understand the point that you are trying to convey.
I hope that you are fully educated in JKD, JF/JKD, and Wing Chun Do before claiming that they have only a slight, episodical connection to Wing Chun. While I can appreciate that JKD in general may have absolutely NO connection with WC (based on the style vs. concept idea and the mixing of several styles), you may be surprised as to how much of a connection Jun Fan and Wing Chun Do actually have to WC. As is often said of different WC schools and lineage, I would hope that you have researched and experienced these before making claims.
I, like hopefully everyone else, understands that when looking for a WC school or teacher, you should do your research and investigate how things are done and whether or not the sifu is knowledgeable and respected. How do you actually gauge what they know or understand? One person says ‘Yes’ and another says ‘No’ on this forum, or in real life. My lineage is the best because of this, etc.. How does an individual KNOW and UNDERSTAND whether or not the school that they attend or are looking into actually KNOW and UNDERSTAND.
I think many on this forum ask questions seeking advice or clarification just to find answers in the form of questions that bring you no further on the search for the original answer. How is an individual supposed to research and find out who actually KNOWS and UNDERSTANDS when people refuse to answer simply and clearly? Instead they come here to read often cryptic posts that read like they are talking down to the original poster. At best they lightly touch on the question originally posed. When trying to understand what someone is conveying, you are basically told that you are wrong or that you misunderstood without explaining why? This of course leaves you just as confused or lost as when you first asked a question.
I think each and every person is entitled to train the way they wish and even share it with everyone else without being told they are doing it for no reason or that it is futile. Life is a long journey - knowledge and understanding a neverending quest. When trying something new, either you will find an invaluable tool or you will learn from your own mistakes. We should never squash the will to innovate at the risk of never moving forward.
Bottom line? If a poster here can help an individual KNOW and UNDERSTAND than they should do all that they can to help the individual. If they cannot assist on the person’s quest for knowledge and understanding they can better serve the Wing Chun community and forum by NOT stirring the pot for the sake of trying to look stoic and master-like.
Kevin
Originally posted by Spectre
you may be surprised as to how much of a connection Jun Fan and Wing Chun Do actually have to WC.
They both use kicks and punches? What a joke!
How does an individual KNOW and UNDERSTAND whether or not the school that they attend or are looking into actually KNOW and UNDERSTAND.
I guess you can’t. But it’s interesting, however, to see how people come and watch a class, and then not join because it’s not eye candy, like the other schools they visited. I guess in today’s world, where there are few legitimate teachers, you can only assume that it is they, who are not legitimate.
How is an individual supposed to research and find out who actually KNOWS and UNDERSTANDS when people refuse to answer simply and clearly?
I’ve put my time in, and I’m still doing it. I’m sure you’d like me to just pour it all on in this forum. But I’d be disrespecting those who have helped me along the way.
There are plenty of other posters, who can satisfy your unwillingness to think.
Instead they come here to read often cryptic posts that read like they are talking down to the original poster.
Perhaps it is just your insecurity that you’re reflecting? You have a problem with authority, don’t you?
At best they lightly touch on the question originally posed. When trying to understand what someone is conveying, you are basically told that you are wrong or that you misunderstood without explaining why? This of course leaves you just as confused or lost as when you first asked a question.
Ask the right question, and you’ll get the right answer.
I think each and every person is entitled to train the way they wish and even share it with everyone else without being told they are doing it for no reason or that it is futile. Life is a long journey - knowledge and understanding a neverending quest. When trying something new, either you will find an invaluable tool or you will learn from your own mistakes.
That’s right. So what are you complaining about?
Bottom line? If a poster here can help an individual KNOW and UNDERSTAND than they should do all that they can to help the individual.
I owe you nothing.