The Wing Chun problem...

[Buddha_Fist]

I found the following in a German discussion forum:

“It seems to me that fighting has become in Wing Chun a Holy Grail with metaphysical proportions. It has become something that everybody is talking about, yet nobody knows or has ever seen. That’s the reason why it doesn’t matter in Wing Chun whether the training forges real fighters or not; it completely suffices when the training generates the believe that this is the best way to prepare oneself for a tough fight. The (supposedly) aggressive attitude towards fighting, even though fighting itself remains somewhat unreal, is one of the reasons for this phenomenon.”

(Taken from http://www.wt4um.de/viewtopic.php?t=8330&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

I know that this topic has been discussed plenty of times, yet I find this post to describe rather accurately the problem prevailing in the Wing Chun scene. Robotic prearranged moves in drills that are chewed over and over 'til exhaustion + believe in an instructor who has never fought competitively to do a reality check on his real skills = Present state of Wing Chun.

[Ernie]

When there is no goal , checks and balances people can and will do anything they like and call it wing chun or what ever system they prefer .

when people create there own bubble [there drills , there test , there little universe were there idea’s work because they only do the same stuff to each other ]
they will then fool themselves into thinking the have some thing , but this is the rice bowl way

people just don’t want to get hurt , but want to pretend they have all the skills in the world [because on paper it says so and of course the ‘‘Sifu says’’ clones ]

but this is human nature :o

[ghostofwingchun]

@Ernie

When there is no goal , checks and balances people can and will do anything they like and call it wing chun or what ever system they prefer .

when people create there own bubble [there drills , there test , there little universe were there idea’s work because they only do the same stuff to each other ]
they will then fool themselves into thinking the have some thing , but this is the rice bowl way

people just don’t want to get hurt , but want to pretend they have all the skills in the world [because on paper it says so and of course the ‘‘Sifu says’’ clones ]

but this is human nature :o

I am thinking that it is not always the case of not having goal . . . but of having different goal . . . one person’s or group’s goal is not yardstick by which everyone is measured . . . some people play basketball for fun . . . not to be competitive basketball players . . . others want to play at NBA . . . some people play basketball for socializing . . . some just to get exercise . . . and so on . . . basketball like wc serves us I am thinking. . . we make it what we want it to be. Anyway . . . I may be completely wrong . . . but this is my thinking at present.

Thanks,

Ghost

[couch]

@ghostofwingchun

I am thinking that it is not always the case of not having goal . . . but of having different goal . . . one person’s or group’s goal is not yardstick by which everyone is measured . . . some people play basketball for fun . . . not to be competitive basketball players . . . others want to play at NBA . . . some people play basketball for socializing . . . some just to get exercise . . . and so on . . . basketball like wc serves us I am thinking. . . we make it what we want it to be. Anyway . . . I may be completely wrong . . . but this is my thinking at present.

Thanks,

Ghost

The only thing I gotta say to this (and I may avoid the comments to come later!!!):
If you play basketball for fun, exercise and socialization, you know that if you take your game to the LA Lakers, you’re gonna get your butt kicked. At least that’s well known. At least that I would know that I’m gonna get whooped and I can’t use my “recreational” basketball skillz against an NBA player. If I want to “survive” a game of basketball with just about anyone on the planet (assuming I would be walking in the woods and someone would jump out of nowhere and force a game of one-on-one basketball with me!), I have to train as best to my ability to avoid a horrible loss. Sidenote: Just as if I met Couture in the bar and would buy him a beer instead of p!ss him off, if I saw Jordan - I may decline.

Now herein lies the many paths of martial arts. I agree that many people choose many reasons for joining the martial arts. It’s just that false confidence that scares me. “I do martial arts. I’m deadly.”

Me opinion,
Kenton

[kj1]

@couch

Now herein lies the many paths of martial arts. I agree that many people choose many reasons for joining the martial arts. It’s just that false confidence that scares me. “I do martial arts. I’m deadly.”

Dead on, Kenton.

Regards,

• kj

[ghostofwingchun]

@couch

The only thing I gotta say to this (and I may avoid the comments to come later!!!):
If you play basketball for fun, exercise and socialization, you know that if you take your game to the LA Lakers, you’re gonna get your butt kicked. At least that’s well known. At least that I would know that I’m gonna get whooped and I can’t use my “recreational” basketball skillz against an NBA player. If I want to “survive” a game of basketball with just about anyone on the planet (assuming I would be walking in the woods and someone would jump out of nowhere and force a game of one-on-one basketball with me!), I have to train as best to my ability to avoid a horrible loss. Sidenote: Just as if I met Couture in the bar and would buy him a beer instead of p!ss him off, if I saw Jordan - I may decline.

Now herein lies the many paths of martial arts. I agree that many people choose many reasons for joining the martial arts. It’s just that false confidence that scares me. “I do martial arts. I’m deadly.”

Me opinion,
Kenton

Mr. Kenton thank you for your reply! Yes . . . I agree with much of what you say. . . let us consider for moment that being best basketball player I can be is both our goal . . . let us also say that I wish to share with you that certain forms of training has been very helpful to me . . . why not just say so . . . I have found that being in good condition for example has helped my game and that when I wasn’t in as good condition it made me less able to play . . . instead of making it a commandment . . . thou shalt be in top condition . . . lol . . . maybe then someone will listen and say OK maybe I should try that too . . . if you have found a good strategy why not share that you have found this works for you . . . and not as this is strategy we should all use . . . and anyone not using it is a moron . . . do you see what I am getting at? Also why be concerned about what others do . . . or feel . . . it is fine for you to say that you do not wish to have false confidence . . . that you want to know from experience you can fight . . . others may feel differently . . . take it on faith . . . maybe they are wrong . . . maybe not . . . so what . . . you can only choose for you not for others.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Phil_Redmond]

I was going to write that the problem is not enough realistic training. I agree with Ernie that there are paper Tigers out there. Then I saw Kenton’s post and had to agree with him as well. Everyone doesn’t train to be a fighter. WC to some is a hobby. Very good post Kenton.
Phil

[Ultimatewingchun]

@Buddha_Fist

I found the following in a German discussion forum:

“It seems to me that fighting has become in Wing Chun a Holy Grail with metaphysical proportions. It has become something that everybody is talking about, yet nobody knows or has ever seen. That’s the reason why it doesn’t matter in Wing Chun whether the training forges real fighters or not; it completely suffices when the training generates the believe that this is the best way to prepare oneself for a tough fight. The (supposedly) aggressive attitude towards fighting, even though fighting itself remains somewhat unreal, is one of the reasons for this phenomenon.”

(Taken from http://www.wt4um.de/viewtopic.php?t=8330&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0)

I know that this topic has been discussed plenty of times, yet I find this post to describe rather accurately the problem prevailing in the Wing Chun scene. Robotic prearranged moves in drills that are chewed over and over 'til exhaustion + believe in an instructor who has never fought competitively to do a reality check on his real skills = Present state of Wing Chun.

***WHICH IS WHY I’ve just got to laugh whenever somebody comes on this forum and tries to put down the value of frequent, real, spontaneous, hard contact sparring - with protective gear and thin, semi-fingerless gloves to protect against injuries.

[Edmund]

I thought there were a bazillion clips of German WT guys punching each others lights out with a bit of protective gear.

Not that I liked it that much but you couldn’t call it a prearranged drill.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I don’t think I made myself clear enough, Edmund…I wasn’t criticizing Buddha_Fist’s opening post - I was praising it!

[Edmund]

Maybe I’m not understanding what Buddha_Fist is getting at but I thought he was criticizing WC people (esp. German) for just doing drills rather than sparring.

[Ultimatewingchun]

I thought he was just talking about the problem of wing chun robotic moves training in general - but not pointing a finger at the Germans in particular.

[Edmund]

In that case, I believe I’m an idiot.

[Buddha_Fist]

@Ultimatewingchun

I thought he was just talking about the problem of wing chun robotic moves training in general - but not pointing a finger at the Germans in particular.

Yep. That was the point. There may well be good exceptions, but the general state of Wing Chun is quite sad. And the problem was quite well described a few posts earlier with 2 words: false confidence.

[tansaujosh]

both deadly arts

this is why in my class our sifu teaches us not only wing chun, but basic boxing, muay thai and techniques and shaloin fitness training. this shows me how all fighters are becuase alot of arts derive form each other it also lets me see how the other fighters think.

[Hendrik]

I agree with Kenton and KJ…

In my opinion,

The foundation to prepare for Figthing are:

1, one has to be able to generate significant power. For the bottom line is shutdown the opponents.

2, one has to be able to sustain or absorb some amount of significant incomming power. For the bottom line is one will get hit.

3, One has to be able to response in action with sufficient speed. For no one will stand there similar to a woodern dummy and might even action in a speed as fast as one can.

4, The more one knows and master about the variaty of technics the better one chance is. Kick, punch, lock, throw, bounce… those are the basic.

without a right or wrong answer. How much and How far has one been in the 1,2,3,4 preparation? Without knowing the answer and fantasy about figthing is flying blind. IMHO. (eventhough the above might not applied to some born great fighter or a natural.)

Not to even mention, to get into the issue of either one is generating a pushing paper box power or a shooting spinining curve trajectory basket ball power.. and more…

seriously, if one is practicing a V2 with the SNT, sun punch, dummy…etc and havent seen a V4. How the heck is one be able even to catch or stop an incoming basket ball? Not to mention even with V4 one might not be able always guarentee to sometimes…

But then, everyone has thier view in this free will world. and why not? and I can be wrong.

just some opinions.

[ghostofwingchun]

@Hendrik

I agree with Kenton and KJ…

In my opinion,

The foundation to prepare for Figthing are:

1, one has to be able to generate significant power. For the bottom line is shutdown the opponents.

2, one has to be able to sustain or absorb some amount of significant incomming power. For the bottom line is one will get hit.

3, One has to be able to response in action with sufficient speed. For no one will stand there similar to a woodern dummy and might even action in a speed as fast as one can.

4, The more one knows and master about the variaty of technics the better one chance is. Kick, punch, lock, throw, bounce… those are the basic.

without a right or wrong answer. How much and How far has one been in the 1,2,3,4 preparation? Without knowing the answer and fantasy about figthing is flying blind. IMHO. (eventhough the above might not applied to some born great fighter or a natural.)

Not to even mention, to get into the issue of either one is generating a pushing paper box power or a shooting spinining curve trajectory basket ball power.. and more…

seriously, if one is practicing a V2 with the SNT, sun punch, dummy…etc and havent seen a V4. How the heck is one be able even to catch or stop an incoming basket ball? Not to mention even with V4 one might not be able always guarentee to sometimes…

But then, everyone has thier view in this free will world. and why not? and I can be wrong.

just some opinions.

Mr Hendrik I am in agreement with much of what you say . . . yes we must have 1-4 . . . though I am still confused about what bounce is . . . lol . . . you ask good question about how far person is in preparation . . . this is one thing that sparring is for I am thinking . . . so person can see for him self how his preparation is going . . . I can think of no other way . . . but this is true of all activitities I am thinking . . . it is by doing that we get feedback . . . and from feedback we can reflect on our performance . . . and from this reflection we can come up with things to try to improve . . . and experiment with those things by doing . . . this is well known experiential learning loop . . . any way while I do not think in terms of your model perhaps we are not so far apart after all . . . lol.

Thanks,

Ghost

[Mortal1]

Great post Kenton!

Thought provoking in my opinion. You really put things into perspective.

[Hendrik]

@ghostofwingchun

Mr Hendrik I am in agreement with much of what you say . . . yes we must have 1-4 . . . though I am still confused about what bounce is . . . lol . . . you ask good question about how far person is in preparation . . . this is one thing that sparring is for I am thinking . . . so person can see for him self how his preparation is going . . . I can think of no other way . . . but this is true of all activitities I am thinking . . . it is by doing that we get feedback . . . and from feedback we can reflect on our performance . . . and from this reflection we can come up with things to try to improve . . . and experiment with those things by doing . . . this is well known experiential learning loop . . . any way while I do not think in terms of your model perhaps we are not so far apart after all . . . lol.

Thanks,

Ghost

I agree and dont agree with Sparring. Sparring is a good exercise however it is still not real. For there is all the rules depend on who plays in who’s paradigm or arena.

Furthermore, Sparring doesnt tell one everything about what is going on. IMHO.

A case is that.

Say people are using V2 type of force and V2M type of momentum (say V2 is analogous to " holding and pushing a paper box forward type of power" ) they spar with those with V4 type of force and V4M type of opponent. ( say V4 is analogous to " shooting a spining and curving basket ball type of power.)

Now, the V2 type lost.
and if one is not Aware of what happen. it is easy one can blame on not fast enough speed. Dont have enough power. The art one train has no such techinics…or get more applications or do tan sau this way…etc. and all sort of thing one can think about.

However, the main cause is V2 have a very very difficult time or cannot handle a V4 train people disregard of how long one train. because V4 is much agile and fluilld compare with V2.

IE: no matter how many time one practice and try and erro and experimenting a V2/V2M type of Tan sau standing in a Broken Arrow YJKYM one will have a difficult time handling a Basket Ball player’s rush in. IMHHHO. and how is sparring is going to know that if no one make aware of the different level of forces?

Back to why Model? Model is a tool so that one can pin point a specific area about what is going on if something goes wrong. There is no Model can model all reality. But model is needed to eliminate and focus what one is looking for.

One of the problem of WCK . Thus, I have heard, is that some is so concern about application and figthing similar to one is so concern about the Cart of the carriage and totally neglected the horses. but expecting the horse to fly. and the Cart to run without horses.

Saying that ofcause we need to take good care of both the cart and the horse to have an excellent carriage.

Just some thoughts.

[ghostofwingchun]

@Hendrik

I agree and dont agree with Sparring. Sparring is a good exercise however it is still not real. For there is all the rules depend on who plays in who’s paradigm or arena.

Furthermore, Sparring doesnt tell one everything about what is going on. IMHO.

A case is that.

Say people are using V2 type of force and V2M type of momentum (say V2 is analogous to " holding and pushing a paper box forward type of power" ) they spar with those with V4 type of force and V4M type of opponent. ( say V4 is analogous to " shooting a spining and curving basket ball type of power.)

Now, the V2 type lost.
and if one is not Aware of what happen. it is easy one can blame on not fast enough speed. Dont have enough power. The art one train has no such techinics…or get more applications or do tan sau this way…etc. and all sort of thing one can think about.

However, the main cause is V2 have a very very difficult time or cannot handle a V4 train people disregard of how long one train. because V4 is much agile and fluilld compare with V2.

IE: no matter how many time one practice and try and erro and experimenting a V2/V2M type of Tan sau standing in a Broken Arrow YJKYM one will have a difficult time handling a Basket Ball player’s rush in. IMHHHO. and how is sparring is going to know that if no one make aware of the different level of forces?

Back to why Model? Model is a tool so that one can pin point a specific area about what is going on if something goes wrong. There is no Model can model all reality. But model is needed to eliminate and focus what one is looking for.

One of the problem of WCK . Thus, I have heard, is that some is so concern about application and figthing similar to one is so concern about the Cart of the carriage and totally neglected the horses. but expecting the horse to fly. and the Cart to run without horses.

Saying that ofcause we need to take good care of both the cart and the horse to have an excellent carriage.

Just some thoughts.

Mr Hendrik thank you for your reply! . . . I am sorry but I do not understand when you say sparring is not real . . . are you saying it is imaginary . . . lol. I appreciate your analogy of horse and cart . . . if some one drive horse drawn cart they will see how well two work together . . . they can not tell how good horse draws cart with only horse . . . and can not tell how well cart hitches to horse withoout horse . . . the two must work together . . . and that is most clear when we drive them together . . . when we drive them together and see problem then we can begin to address or fix problem . . . maybe with adjustment of horse . . . maybe with adjustment to cart . . . maybe both . . . some times even good horse can make up for poor cart . . . and some times I might need to make changes to cart for particular horse. I understand you like model . . . we have been down this road before . . . for me I do not need model of how cart and horse should work . . . I have horse and cart for real . . . of course some one can say my driving cart with horse is not real . . . but for me it is real . . . and model is what is not real . . . model is what is imaginary . . . in imagination and in model we can have all kinds of ideas of how horse and cart should work . . . in real life experience driving cart with horse teaches me. . . at least this is my outlook at the moment . . . if model is your cup of tea that is fine too.

Thanks,

Ghost