You’re already touching. That isn’t establishing a bridge.
—Sure it is. Bridge in place…cross bridge…no bridge…strike direct. You are learning to respond to pressure. Each time the pressure changes in amount and angle, that’s a new bridge to react to.
From a non-contact position, you and your opponent are not bridged. That is not Chi sao.
—I agree. But the moment your arms touch, Chi Sao skills kick in!
Chi sao is not training those non-contact situations.
—I never said it did. It seems we have a different definition of “bridging.” You seem to mean “closing the gap.”
[QUOTE=KPM;860842]You’re already touching. That isn’t establishing a bridge.
—Sure it is. Bridge in place…cross bridge…no bridge…strike direct. You are learning to respond to pressure. Each time the pressure changes in amount and angle, that’s a new bridge to react to.
From a non-contact position, you and your opponent are not bridged. That is not Chi sao.
—I agree. But the moment your arms touch, Chi Sao skills kick in!
Chi sao is not training those non-contact situations.
—I never said it did. It seems we have a different definition of “bridging.” You seem to mean “closing the gap.”[/QUOTE]
Correct. That is my definition.
All non-contact situations aren’t trained in chi sao.
Not all WC techniques are for in-contact situations. Therefore chi sao can’t train those techniques.
This is why WC chi sao is not really the equivalent of Judo randori. This is my point!
we train for lat sao chit chung through chi-sao…loss of contact hit in…nothing to do with making a bridge …impact with partner , can you hurt your partner if they let you hit them on the chest ? can you reach ? to close etc… right angles and arm angles and strike with force as they step in…with or without any bridge work.
we train for lat sao chit chung through chi-sao…loss of contact hit in…nothing to do with making a bridge
Well 1st that’s a saying not a technique.
2nd I think you can’t expect every opponent to act the way you think they should. Lai Lao, Hui Soong etc. From a distance, they could kick or change levels and shoot a double leg. You can’t train those situations without starting at that distance.
BTW I think you need a better translation.
“Lut sao” - Free Hand
“Jik Chung” - Straight charge
Its an ability trained through chi-sao drills with us , free hands hits through…random removal of an arm by a partner in chi-sao at first to check force of impact..can be a humbling experience to a veteran Vt’er when allowed , no asked, to be hit with enough force to move you backwards ends up in the puncher moving back
Add inward ‘space mugging’ and the simple ability to hit someone standing 2ft in front of you with force becomes a skill to work on.
VT fighting begins at distance of a face off…tactical maneuvering to attempted shoots etc..
stabbing lunges by weapons etc…
phonetics Edmund, lat sao, lut, laat sao etc… chi, cjik, jik, context …I learned to write, read and speak cantonese for a while basic as it is…
the way wsl trains chi-sao is to incorporate shifting and angling to attempted entry along the line to us be it from 6ft away or 2ft away …the chi-sao is the point in the apex when impact timing to an attack is critical to have all the ‘components’ functional and tactically maneuvering into or offside to attack or counter attack. then stay with what comes and follow it as it attempts to run for recovery…
I’ll leave you to give the translation ; ) stay with what comes counter attack , not like a statue, follow it as it retreats , attack ! ; )
[QUOTE=Edmund;860850]Correct. That is my definition.
All non-contact situations aren’t trained in chi sao.
Not all WC techniques are for in-contact situations. Therefore chi sao can’t train those techniques.
This is why WC chi sao is not really the equivalent of Judo randori. This is my point![/QUOTE]
You seem to be much more familiar with Judo than I am. But I don’t recall seeing Judo players working much in the way of non-contact techniques to close the gap either. In the simple Judo Randori I’ve seen, the players basically face off, move around a bit, and then come together and grab onto each other’s jacket. Maybe they do a simple feint with the hand or foot on the way in, but that’s about all I’ve seen. So, IMHO, its a “close enough” analogy that many martial arts people will be able to relate to.
[QUOTE=KPM;860954]You seem to be much more familiar with Judo than I am. But I don’t recall seeing Judo players working much in the way of non-contact techniques to close the gap either. In the simple Judo Randori I’ve seen, the players basically face off, move around a bit, and then come together and grab onto each other’s jacket. Maybe they do a simple feint with the hand or foot on the way in, but that’s about all I’ve seen. So, IMHO, its a “close enough” analogy that many martial arts people will be able to relate to. ;)[/QUOTE]Yes, but in judo randori they get into the attack straight away. If we’re talking about chi sau as a strict drill incorporating the mutual rolling hands portion then clearly they are not equivalent.
One of my sparring partners/fellow student of vt, was a Judo black belt training along with his VT .
he would try to use it when we sparred sweeping entry etc… all good for us to do 20 years ago
He found that his VT made the simple act of grabbing his gi much harder for gaining a hand to control him in judo class . So the face off was more a vying for a controlling hand to clothing/Gi
no gi no control…so SHOOT n sprawl …
btw …I did Judo when I was 10 years old so i had arm submissions , chokes going whenever I hit the floor, always had the edge on the ground in sparring even with simple chokes /holds.
[QUOTE=CFT;860963]Yes, but in judo randori they get into the attack straight away. If we’re talking about chi sau as a strict drill incorporating the mutual rolling hands portion then clearly they are not equivalent.[/QUOTE]
You guys are over-analyzing and trying to be too nit-picky. Its just an analogy. Use it for what its worth. Like Kevin’s analogy of the spider web. Randori is a drill designed to work on what Judo does best…standing grapple to throw. Chi Sao is a drill designed to work on what Wing Chun does best…contact reactions to bridge in. The “roll” in BJJ is a drill designed to work on what BJJ does best…ground control and transitions to chokes and submissions. Pad work with a coach in boxing is a drill designed to work on what boxing does best…hitting hard and fast from multiple angles. Are they all exactly equivalent? Probably not! Do the comparisons serve to make a point? I think so!
Randori is not a drill, it is free sparring.
The only difference between randori and shiai (competition) is who you fight and if you get a medal.
Randori CAN be used to focus on a specific skill set like throws only or ground work only, but typically it is free sparring.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;861012]Randori is not a drill, it is free sparring.
The only difference between randori and shiai (competition) is who you fight and if you get a medal.
Randori CAN be used to focus on a specific skill set like throws only or ground work only, but typically it is free sparring.[/QUOTE]
The over-analyzing continues!! Randori may be free-sparring…but in a Judo context! How many people are throwing head kicks and uppercuts during Judo Randori? Chi Sao can be free-sparring in a Wing Chun context when partners are giving each other realistic pressure and not just cooperating.
[QUOTE=KPM;861022]The over-analyzing continues!! Randori may be free-sparring…but in a Judo context! How many people are throwing head kicks and uppercuts during Judo Randori? Chi Sao can be free-sparring in a Wing Chun context when partners are giving each other realistic pressure and not just cooperating.[/QUOTE]
My issue:
Randori is a drill designed to work on what Judo does best
Don’t call it a drill is my point, it isn’t a drill.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;861025]My issue:
Don’t call it a drill is my point, it isn’t a drill.[/QUOTE]
You said:
“Randori CAN be used to focus on a specific skill set like throws only or ground work only, but typically it is free sparring.”
—Focusing on a specific skill set like throws only or ground work only makes it a drill. Going all out makes it sparring. Chi Sao can be a give and take exercise with different levels of resistance and cooperation, making it a drill. But Chi Sao can also be “all out” and become a Wing Chun specific sparring exercise. Why are we belaboring this point?
[QUOTE=KPM;860954]You seem to be much more familiar with Judo than I am. But I don’t recall seeing Judo players working much in the way of non-contact techniques to close the gap either. In the simple Judo Randori I’ve seen, the players basically face off, move around a bit, and then come together and grab onto each other’s jacket. Maybe they do a simple feint with the hand or foot on the way in, but that’s about all I’ve seen. So, IMHO, its a “close enough” analogy that many martial arts people will be able to relate to. ;)[/QUOTE]
You stated in the article, that Judo players come to grips grabbing each others jacket. That implies that they mutually allow each other to grab onto the jackets. This is just not the case as I stated before. You can start from a distance and shoot a double leg if you like. Or do a flying triangle choke.
[QUOTE=KPM;861060]
—Focusing on a specific skill set like throws only or ground work only makes it a drill. Going all out makes it sparring. Chi Sao can be a give and take exercise with different levels of resistance and cooperation, making it a drill. But Chi Sao can also be “all out” and become a Wing Chun specific sparring exercise. Why are we belaboring this point?[/QUOTE]
Because it makes a massive difference…
In striking, the chance of you defending a strike is lower when you are not in contact with the opponent! You have to read your opponent with your eyes.
Plainly being good at WC means you should be able to apply it starting from a non-contact situation where you have to use your eyes first.
Because you’re cooperating by starting in-contact in chi sao, that element is neglected.
We defend by striking not blocking …‘no mind’ attacks freely …intersecting lines of force with angles that work if contact is made by the opponent, no contact and we strike . Then it boils down to your punch
good or bad ? simple really.
Good basics with movement along a protractor face off, for an unpredictable entry or counter . preparation for this event is practiced by random angling to each others lines of entry in chi-sao 'step in attacks and angle off side striking attacks…done in a random manner in the ‘here and now’ speed of gor sao…add space & time to cover the distances between 2 fighters with no contact and we simply attempt to strike with angling similar to that we have trained and follow it by attacking …a 10 second engagement with 9 seconds of me attacking is better than the opposite for of outcome.
how good is my attack ? that is what I strive to improve , not my stickiness ; )
You stated in the article, that Judo players come to grips grabbing each others jacket. That implies that they mutually allow each other to grab onto the jackets. This is just not the case as I stated before. You can start from a distance and shoot a double leg if you like. Or do a flying triangle choke.
----As you note…I said Judo players come to grips grabbing each others jacket. I didn’t elaborate any further than that. Take it at face value. The “implication” is your own perception. I’ve often done Chi Sao that begins as light sparring from a distance, closing the gap, making contact at Chi Sao range to roll and respond, and then breaking contact to do it again. Have you? To me, that is part of training Chi Sao.
Plainly being good at WC means you should be able to apply it starting from a non-contact situation where you have to use your eyes first.
—Where have I said otherwise? Is seems to me that, plainly, by making a comparsion to Judo Randori I have already implied that idea. But you choose to see negative implications in the analogy rather than positive ones. Why is that?
[QUOTE=KPM;861233]
----As you note…I said Judo players come to grips grabbing each others jacket. I didn’t elaborate any further than that. Take it at face value. The “implication” is your own perception. I’ve often done Chi Sao that begins as light sparring from a distance, closing the gap, making contact at Chi Sao range to roll and respond, and then breaking contact to do it again. Have you? To me, that is part of training Chi Sao.
[/QUOTE]
I think I’d have to see what you mean.
How is it chi sao? And how is it light sparring if you know eventually you are going to make contact in chi sao range?
Plainly being good at WC means you should be able to apply it starting from a non-contact situation where you have to use your eyes first.
—Where have I said otherwise? Is seems to me that, plainly, by making a comparsion to Judo Randori I have already implied that idea. But you choose to see negative implications in the analogy rather than positive ones. Why is that?
Because there are more negative implications than positive ones.
Judo Randori basically is the same as a real competition match. The reason you don’t see head kicks in Judo is that Judo doesn’t have head kicks. It’s basically a pure grappling art.
WC Sparring is basically the same as a real fight. Chi sao isn’t. Maybe you could demonstrate how you do it so it’s “free sparring”.
I think I’d have to see what you mean.
How is it chi sao?
—Ah! So your answer is “no.” You only train Chi Sao by standing and rolling. Chi Sao trains a very specific range of interaction. But that doesn’t mean you neglect the other ranges. Chi Sao represents that moment when you touch forearms…make a bridge…and react to the opponent’s energy or intent. But you have to get there somehow. The way I learned and teach Chi Sao, at one stage of the progression you start from a distance, launch a technique, encounter an obstruction, and then effectively move into Chi Sao rolling and responses. This helps to emphasize what you are trying to learn in Chi Sao…contact reflexes and sensitivity. How long you stay on the “outside” is up to the partners. One may move in immediately, or they may have a short exchange.
And how is it light sparring if you know eventually you are going to make contact in chi sao range?
----Its a progression. Light sparring is a drill like any of the others. You’re just agreeing to combine two drills ahead time. That way you train for the transitions. In a more modern context…you could agree to combine even more drills. You could start from light sparring at a distance, transition to Chi Sao, and then transition to a stand grapple or takedown. The lines between training platforms become fluid once you get to higher levels. If you do this…work on the transition from light sparring into Chi Sao and back out, then you will find that your “all out” free sparring will start having more Chi Sao “elements” than it did previously.
Because there are more negative implications than positive ones.
—That’s only your opinion. Maybe you need to change your perspective. It seems obvious to me that your impression of Chi Sao is somewhat limited.
Judo Randori basically is the same as a real competition match. The reason you don’t see head kicks in Judo is that Judo doesn’t have head kicks. It’s basically a pure grappling art.
—As I said before (have you been paying attention?) Randori may be free-sparring…but in a Judo context! How many people are throwing head kicks and uppercuts during Judo Randori? Chi Sao can be free-sparring in a Wing Chun context when partners are giving each other realistic pressure and not just cooperating. Did you watch the recent clips from SENI? Were those not of a “real competition match”? Are you saying you have never taken your Chi Sao to the level that it was a free exchange?
WC Sparring is basically the same as a real fight. Chi sao isn’t. Maybe you could demonstrate how you do it so it’s “free sparring”.
----Judo Randori isn’t the same as a “real fight” either. Sparring also has many levels of progression…from essentially cooperative to work defenses against set techniques to going all out. Its a continuum. I think these are simple and basic concepts. No “demonstration” needed. Just open your mind a bit and consider possibilities that are outside what you have been training. You seem to be more intent on arguing whether Judo Randori is a valid comparison to Wing Chun Chi Sao than you are on trying to get a new perspective on what Chi Sao can be.
basic as it is…
Randori is a drill designed to work on what Judo does best…standing grapple to throw. Chi Sao is a drill designed to work on what Wing Chun does best…contact reactions to bridge in. The “roll” in BJJ is a drill designed to work on what BJJ does best…ground control and transitions to chokes and submissions. Pad work with a coach in boxing is a drill designed to work on what boxing does best…hitting hard and fast from multiple angles. Are they all exactly equivalent? Probably not! Do the comparisons serve to make a point? I think so!