or are the Luo Guangyu (7*PM), Hao Henglu (Plum Blossom PM), Song Zide (Grand Ultimate PM), and Ding Zichengs’ (6 Harmonies PM) of the PM Kung Fu world the last of the great innovators of PM Kung Fu?
ofcourse there can all you need are people that respect the style and the masters of old enough to change the style. You cant have people clinging to the old regiment, nothing can grow if you stay the same. Some people focus too much and being their “master, Sifu” instead of focusing on becoming better than ther teacher.
I agree with you. Still, I can’t help but think that if someone tried to start a new branch of PM, possibly mixing PM with another effective method of combat that there wouldn’t be an uproar in the PM community.
I wonder if the people that started their own branches of PM suffered such persecution. Possibly they did, but kicked soo much ass that the Martial Arts community was forced to acknowledge the innovation, and respect the Founder, and the new style and/or system.
Comments?
Kicking ass
That’s one of the major things that is missing these days… the kicking ass.
Now, before I get labelled as someone who likes to fight, I simply mean that in history, if you wanted to prove your style was the best, you challenged and fought others who were considered “the best”. These days, there are laws to prevent such things.
shrug
As for starting a new branch of Mantis… who knows? Myself, I don’t plan on becoming a carbon copy of my Sifu, but I don’t plan on creating my own branch, either. I hope to bring my own “flavor” to the 7* that I practice. I think that is what all great martial artists do.
Just my opinion… and I’m half watching TV right now, so forgive me if it makes no sense… hehe
I definitely think it should evolve. The problem with that is that many people will tend to look at it as “watered down” or “made-up.” I think this may be why someone these days wouldn’t want to try to change it. If it’s practical and follows the basic principles of PM kung fu, it’s good PM kung fu. If someone has something useful to add to the style, it should be welcomed.
Lisa
I can see why LGY & WHF made the hanges they did & kept what was needed the same. No, I do not see the ability for much change in this era as there are not many people actually using the system. Inovations, creations, revisions are made by people then what they have will no longer keep them alive & needs to be changed. I do not see such a serious need so I will probrably just try to preserve what I have learned as best I can for my future students who may actually need the system as a way to stay alive & may change the system then to met their needs.
Not much can change anyway in the long run if you think about it.
In short, I believe fighting style changes/inovations are products of their environments plain & simple.
It is al ready changing evry time someone makes it thier personal exprition. As traditionalists we hold on to the old ways the tradtions, as innovators we move on to our own way. In the chinese martial arts comunity moving on now is called basterdizing making stuff up, chop suey . but in 50 to 100 years it will be tradition. I can’t make any sence of this thinking.
If it is not broke then why try and fix it
“If it is not broke then why try and fix it”
It’s not about it being “broke.” I think it just has more to do with making the style more complete. If my instructor wanted to teach me something to better deal with groundfighting for example, I would not be opposed to learning it, even if it was not traditionally a part of the PM system.
“In the chinese martial arts comunity moving on now is called basterdizing making stuff up, chop suey . but in 50 to 100 years it will be tradition. I can’t make any sence of this thinking.”
Yeah, I see what you’re saying. The way I look at it, all kung fu was made up at some point. I think people have a hard time trusting anything that was added to any system recently because you get people like GM Simon who take something that isn’t kung fu, call it kung fu, then make a bunch of money off people who don’t know any better.
Lisa
If it is not broke then why try and fix it Was it ever broke when it evolved? It is not a object it is an art. The tao is change whether we like it or not. To stay the same is agenst nature. And to the point of we don’t need to adapt becuse where not a fighting culture , come on look at crime , home invasions , rape, road rage
. Ever think about uo , luo sao to a head grab out your car window then stomp on the gas. Is this not our eviorment today
Originally posted by Art D
Ever think about uo , luo sao to a head grab out your car window then stomp on the gas.
This is what I call Practical Creativity!!
Thanks for the application Art!
My 2 Cents…
People go into martial arts for all kinds of reasons. The demography is much more diverse than even just a hundred years ago. Of all those people who take up MA, their intentions and their expectations are vastly different not to mention their attributes are no way near the same. So their attainments are all different. Most would drop out with 2-3 years. Those who stayed are really of our concern here. A small number of these “survivers” will push themselves and their original systems to the limit. These people (may be 5 % of the survivers) are usually driven by 2 dynamics - dream and passion. Most of the time there are a mixture of the both dream and passion in an unevent percentage mix (60-40). What happen to the 95% of the survivers? Most of the time they vote the other 5% out Or they vote themself out of the game unknowingly. 
So we don’t worry about them for now. The 3% of the 5 % are those who become lineage holders or keepers of the traditions (passionate in maintaining the sand castle ) or creator of “improved” system (passionate in polishing the mirror). The final 2% are those who dare to dream hard (of course with a lot of passion to excel). These people invent and create. They travel the undiscovered countries to fulfill the true meaning of being human.
Praying Mantis is like the fountain for all. How much and how refreshing is of your mind.
Mantis108
I’ve said this before…
Praying Mantis tradition is like the box. You know, one of those boxes that everyone is attempting to “think outside of.” Wong Long built the PM box; each succeeding generation learned inside the box; then followed up with an innovation (aka “thinking outside the box.”)
I’m still finding the borders of that box, simply because of my stage in development, compounded by the depth of talented PM masters that have already provided innovation upon innovation.
The box has been growing for many generations, so its a timely search.
Perhaps, I won’t be one of the small percentage of practitioners that revolutionize PM, but I confident there will be those that will.
Then again, Praying Mantis is an inspirational style, maybe I will add an innovation of my own.
Hah hah haaa!
I such a comedian.
I Add Innovations to my PM All The Time!
I’ll try different PM techniques to see if there is an application different from the obvious. I keep these techniques to myself. I’ll try it out on one of my elder classmates (with their permission of course) just to see if it would work or not. Sometimes it works great, sometimes they need to revive me with smelling salt.
I believe ALL PM techniques are effective for combat, but I don’t believe that ALL PM techniques are TAUGHT to be effective in combat. Either because the “Masters” don’t want it to be known for their own reasons, or because a “Master” DOESN’T know how to apply it politically and gained his title “Master” because he is respected “politically” (nothing wrong with that, by the way).
Call me impatient, but I don’t want to wait until I’m 64 years old to discover the REAL way to apply a PM throwing technique or a PM locking technique.
Although I may not sound like one, I consider myself a traditionalist, and according to PM tradition, PM creators “screened” 18 different styles, absorbed the combat techniques that they felt were effective for combat, and flushed the rest… They didn’t absorb 18 different styles. They absorbed the “BEST” of the 18 different styles.
I’ll bet that there were some masters that said "don’t get rid of this technique. It is very useful. It has been in the <one of the18 styles> style since the beginning. And either Wang Lang, or whoever had authority to say “yes, we’ll absorb it” or “no, it can stay in <one of the 18 styles>, thank you”, accepted it or rejected it. I am absolutely sure some of the masters said “you don’t think this is practical? Let me try it out to see if it is effective or not.”. Some of them proved it was effective, some of them didn’t prove it was effective.
I’d like to note that I could prove none of this historically. But knowing what little I know about the times in China, if someone called themselves “Masters” they soon had to prove it. Often they had to prove it on a regular basis. Not at all like to day, where people can refer to themselves as a “Master” of Kung-Fu and not prove it.
Absorb what is useful (Said Bruce Lee). All PM techniques are useful, but so is Jiu-Jitsu, Aikido, Wing-Chun, Judo, Tong Bei, Tiger Claw, Choy Lay Fut, and even Tae Kwon Do (if you kick like He IL Cho). And any other style I left out.
I have alot more to say about the evolution of PM but this post is waaay to long.
Lots of Respect to One And All!!!
“PM creators “screened” 18 different styles, absorbed the combat techniques that they felt were effective for combat, and flushed the rest… They didn’t absorb 18 different styles. They absorbed the “BEST” of the 18 different styles”
There is no universal ‘best’ fighting techniques. If there were there would only be one fighting system today. What I consider ‘the best’ fighting techniques of one style might not be what you consider ‘the best’. Each creator took what he liked and what worked for himself and formed a martial arts style. It’s been done time after time and will continue to be done today and in the future. As more material is added (from ‘the best’ of others) to an existing art it will eventually grow to the point where someone extracts ‘the best’ and forms a new one. Where does it end?
Hua Lin excelant points . the on going R&D of a MAist lead all to explore other things to ? what they are doing and to evole as new insight is gained. one of the areas that I find myself going is the greater intergration of internal training into the mix that I teach , than what was presented to me. As wellas a more practical hands on useage , althoe that may just have been WL’s evolution to it’s presant day forms oriented training, I rember that it was not always that way. This not to say that IMO it has always beem very froms oriented, may be to much so IMO.
ugh,…
Yes,..to the forms point I must agree with you. Its hard for me to imagine the quantity of form has doubled,tripled, quadroupled & even more in just 2-3 generations. Hard for me to imagine that much innovation in so short of a time. But as artd says,..its all IMHO.
A question for All
Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
[B…Where does it end? [/B]
Thank-you for your post Hua Lin Laoshi. I believe it never ends.
Here is a question for all – what is change ? That is to say we all agree that to survive MA systems must change, evolve, adapt.
In your opinion then, what constitutes change ?
thx in advance,
UM.
Originally posted by mantisben
Although I may not sound like one, I consider myself a traditionalist, and according to PM tradition, PM creators “screened” 18 different styles, absorbed the combat techniques that they felt were effective for combat, and flushed the rest… They didn’t absorb 18 different styles. They absorbed the “BEST” of the 18 different styles.
First, in response to this, there have been many many discussions on the 18 Styles poem and the story about the style’s origins. As I understand it and I am certainly not an authority, the poem suggests to me that there were certain techniques attributed to specific people. For example, the ngau, lou, choi of Lau Hing; the kwan lau goon yee of Tahm Fong… So Wong Long took these techniques and incorporated them into the Praying Mantis system he was developing, finding them useful and complementary with his theories and concepts. The Poem also says that the style is predominantly made up of Tai Jo Cheung Kuen and Tong Bei Cheung Kuen.
So while the latter two certainly may have been “screened” or filtered for techniques that would make up the foundation for the PM style, I think the other styles that make up the System are in some way an exaggeration. Wong Long took the ngau, lau, choi technique of Lau Hing. That becomes one style’s addition to the Praying Mantis System. It is not stated that there is anything else from Lau Hing in the System so for now, we assume that this is all. I think the history and the poem gives credit for the techniques to others in a way of memorializing or honoring them.
On the discussion of PM evolving, I think this is a very tricky and subjective topic because what one person considers an improvement another might call incorrect. I certainly believe there can be variations in flavor or fighting style. This is just personal preference and in that regard, those differences are minor. I also believe that variations in applications of techniques is indeed necessary for adaptability to different situations. I am a traditionalist though and I strongly believe that while variations are fine, they should not stray too far from the origin. I have seen some vastly differing interpretations of techniques that to me, frankly just tell me that the person does not understand the original intent of that technique. There are times when you can force a round peg into a square hole but it is not the most efficient use of either nor is it very logical to do so.
I think that PM can evolve in other ways. How an instructor teaches in today’s society can not be the same way it was taught even a few generations ago. It is simply not the same demographics or culture anymore. Today’s sifu can not teach and discipline students like they did in HK or China 100 or even 50 years ago. Here is where I have seen how the style has evolved. I have watched and experienced how my Sifu’s teaching method has changed, modified, evolved over the years. This style is not easily taught or learnt. It requires so much coordination of the entire body that not everyone can easily understand or perform the movements. But my Sifu has made it his goal, to teach everyone he accepts into the school. To find ways to break down the movements so that it is easier to learn. To explain it such that people can understand. This is not the traditional way of teaching but it retains the authenticity and integrity of the style. At the same time, allows more people to learn and understand it as well.
As for adding to the style, I think each generation, each instructor is bound to add something. Be it a technique borrowed from another system or a form borrowed from another style. It is not wrong or incorrect so long as everything is kept honest about what is what. I am strongly against adding something from another style and then claiming that it is traditional or authentic to the PM system. This I believe is dishonest and disrespectful. Our school teaches non-PM forms such as Gung Lik Kuen. Forms from the Jing Mo Association. We do not claim them as geunine PM forms. When they are taught, it is explained where these froms came from and why we choose to teach them. This I believe is the correct way to add things to your curriculum.
YM
artd and lisa combined make the most sense. it is changing it has to be- but as was mentioned by someone else? thers no more ass kicking. so if our adaptations are to please/wow crowds then it is a bad thing and if it changes only on a theoretical untested basis it is also bad. we need to come as close as practical to real tests of techs before any changes are made