Can PM Still Evolve...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
21

You can change it for yourself.

Don’t worry so much about changing the system and becomming some kind’ve great innovator. It takes long enough to learn as it is. But, you can change it for yourself.

You say there’s no more ass kicking. Way wrong. San Shou, Shidokan, MMA events. I know what you all will say. “Those events have rules” you’ll cry. Believe me, if you start fighting in San Shou, you’ll be happy and glad that there are rules. I don’t even want to think about what a free for all MMA/NHB event feels like.

I can tell you what happened to my interpretation of 7* after my first San Shou fight. Maybe 75% of the hand techniques work, but I was maybe able to execute 15% of them effectively (and I’m being generous). Mantis throwing techniques-- way lacking for effective free fighting. You have to study Judo or Shuai Jou to get more usefull throws. Mantis kicking isn’t too bad, but you have to build leg endurance and the Thai round kick (and shins). Western boxing needs to be incorporated into the system-- need to get the head moving, bob and weave, basic defensive shell, and offensive combination mentality. The monkey footwork of 7* is right on. If you practice it (7* footwork) hard and get yourself really nimble, it works great.

The above is some of my interpretation of what works and doesn’t work in mantis and what modifications need to be made to make it better. Am I going to change to system? Heck no. Do any of you agree with my interpretations? Again, Heck no. But that doesn’t matter because I don’t want to change the system, I just want to make it better for me. I’m greedy that way.

You guys can do your own fighting and make it better for yourselves.

22

San shao is SPORT ! Not combat . yes a tough sport but a sport.

23

I just read this again . What is this precived lack of ofensive combinations?

24

Art D

Remember that these are just my opinions for myself. I’m not trying to change the system or say that PM is lacking anything because it’s not.

But, for me, I felt too defensive in free fighting/San Shou. What I mean by “offensive combination strategy like a boxer” is exactly that. It’s taking the lead in an engagement. Not waiting for him to punch or kick to work defensively off of their movements, but throwing offensive combinations to open holes. For example, Using a left footed lead, throw a left jab followed by a left hook followed by a left round kick to the opponents thigh. The first two will probably be defended but the kick should land-- Like a boxer uses jabs to open holes.

25

Also…

Yes San Shou is a sport but it was created to give martial artists an environment where they could test their skills in an unrestricted manner. It’s not quite no holds barred MMA, but it’s a safe alternative. It is intended for those people who complain that you can’t challenge people to fights in the old way. You can do that in San Shou, you just have to be able to leave your ego and any pre-conceived notions outside of the ring. Reality bites, but it’s a good experience to have if you’re truly interested in becomming a complete martial artist. I lost to somebody with only a year of training. I have 9. He trained to fight from day one. Like I said, reality bites, but now I’m a completely different martial artist. There’s very little BS in my personal interpretation of 7*. I have no room for kung fu fantasy and overly complicated defensive strategies. That’s just me. But I had to learn the hard way by getting my bell rung. I’ll continue to fight in San Shou matches for as long as I can. I’m getting old now for a fighter (28) and I wish I’d started fighting long ago but I was scared. But who isn’t scared to fight?

26

Re: Art D

But, for me, I felt too defensive in free fighting/San Shou. What I mean by “offensive combination strategy like a boxer” is exactly that. It’s taking the lead in an engagement. Not waiting for him to punch or kick to work defensively off of their movements, but throwing offensive combinations to open holes.

This is EXACTLY what I mean about PM being taught nowadays. PM wasn’t created as a defensive style. The PM style is known for being AGGRESSIVE . If a PM practicioner is only using PM techniques when they are being attacked, then they’re either not being taught PM fighting correctly, or still have alot to learn about PM “fighting”. Not fighting but PM fighting.

Some PM instructors don’t know how to apply PM techniques “agressively”. Some just chose not to teach PM fighting right away. Some don’t teach PM fighting soon enough. I know I wanted to learn PM fighting right away, but I wasn’t ready for it.

The PM style is also known for attacking with combinations. If a PM practicioner lands a strike “right on the button”, and you don’t try to follow through with at least 2 more strikes (either hand or foot strikes), then that PM fighter is missing something.

To me, the aggressive application of attack combinations within PM are some of the most exciting discoveries I’ve made.

I don’t know alot about PM, but one thing I do know, and that is the techniques of PM are aggressive and effective for combat. Whether I know how to apply them, or not.

These opinions are totally my own, and quite possibly WAAAY of the mark. I accept any sincere correction I have coming to me. :smiley:

27

PM is aggressive. IMO, the common element between MightyB and mantisben is ting jing. When two opposing forces find themselves connected or “bridged,” one can feel the intent of the other. At this point, aggressive intent and awareness to your opponents intent become clear simultenously.

The evidence is found in PM form and technique applications. Rarely, though very possible, I find a technique used without attachment between you and your partner. Also, counters and defensive movement to application rely heavily on this attachment as well. This lends itself intuitively to ting jing. I think this is very self evident to anyone who is evolved with PM for any good amount of time.

I can certainly understand why you, MightyB, see boxing taking the lead in engagement over mantis. In my experience, boxing application excels without this connection. In fact, for adept boxers with quick hands, attachment of any kind would almost be a hindrance. They are effectively “tied up.”

However, I believe mantisben is right to say PM is aggressive. So, the question becomes how does a PM practitioner operate without ting jing or aggressively aqcuire this favorable position?

Mantis9

28

throws in PM

MightyB,
One of your posts mentioned PM throws…

PM consists of one throw after another.
They are based on strikes which are applied in conjunction with the throw and also as a way to start the throw.

In sporting competitions of judo it is not permitted to use punches as a means to a throw.
On the good side of their randori training it is extremely aggressive and students must put in 100% or they get slammed.(actually you get slammed anyway).

In PM it is more difficult to learn the method as you must put in 100% in the preceding strike which is more painful. Eg; elbow to the neck, grab the throat etc…

The beginning stage in PM throws is Kaoda. The same Kao as the 12th character of the 12 character formula in 7* PM

29

yes,san shau is sport, but is a step up from conventional sparring. the good part of it lies not in the competition but the conditioning to prepare for it. we incorported full contact because my class situation allowed it- everyone was tight there was no lawsuit worries. instead of rules though, we just went at it like regular sparring with along with sensitvity drills and sparring w/out gloves it has proven indespensable- just knowing how to take a punch is something most people don’t experience until its the real thing and possibly too late.

30

Originally posted by Mantis9
[B]…how does a PM practitioner operate without ting jing or aggressively aqcuire this favorable position?

Mantis9 [/B]

I feel comfortable “monkey stepping” in behind a strong and quick jab. “Checking” the opponents lead-hand and striking with the other also works for me sometimes. But if my opponent moves his hands like a western boxer, it is more difficult to “check” or get a grip on that lead-hand.

Still, PM techniques (in my fighting experience, which I don’t think is as extensive as MightyB’s fighting experience) are best used once you get into the mid to close range.

I don’t know what “ting jing” is, but if it is anything like sensitivity, I can’t “operate” in a fight without it. Well, actually, I can. But then I’ll be fighting like a western boxer, and not a PM fighter. In that case, revive me with smelling salt, I’m gonna need it. :smiley:

31

MightyB

MightyB, thank you for the honest and candid ‘reality check’ to all the theoreticians here.

Martial arts are MARTIAL first. Long/painful horse stance training is one thing, and shin conditioning is another, but real fighting is THE thing.

Sanshou may be a sport, but it’s 100% more like the real thing than any tournament sparring. (And tournament sparring usually looks like brawling, anyway).

Mantis may be the balls of all MAs, but how do we know that? Theory is only that. (Even in science, a theory is nothing until proven with experiment.) I posted before the following question: “if PM is so great, why no PM fighter get into the ring and just clean up?”. Someone replied that a so-and-so did that. Well, I went to the trouble of looking it up. True, so-and-so did fight. He won once and got beaten several times after that. Doesn’t sound like anything superior to anything else.

Why doesn’t some PM guy put his money where his mouth is and get in the ring? I bet he’ll get beaten badly. AS ANY OTHER TRADITIONAL MA GUY. Because traditional MA guys don’t realy fight in practice.

(1) You can not do something WELL if you don’t practice it A LOT. All MArtists know that (gets drilled into us daily), but when it comes to real fighting, for some reason the general attitude is: (2)well, we’ll just practice drills and then carry it over to a real fight. What a contradiction between (1) and (2)! How can you learn how to fight using PM, if you do not fight using PM? (or any other style)

If there are schools that practice real fighting (with proper technique!), why don’t they dominate the fighting circuit? Or even win one tournament?

I make this fuss because I think true MA is dying. Like I said above, traditional MA schools don’t really fight (for whatever reasons). The main reason (in my opinion) is that it’s too dangerous to apply full speed+power with impact techniques (punch, kick… the usual kung fu stuff). But in wrestling, (push, pull) it’s much easier to do that without injury. (You can’t really tap out of a poke to the eye or a punch to the nose, eh?) After all, bjj/judo schools also have to deal with the reality of law suits…

32

Re: MightyB

Originally posted by Ye Gor
I posted before the following question: “if PM is so great, why no PM fighter get into the ring and just clean up?”
(snip)
Why doesn’t some PM guy put his money where his mouth is and get in the ring?
(snip)
If there are schools that practice real fighting (with proper technique!), why don’t they dominate the fighting circuit? Or even win one tournament?
(snip)

I started practicing PM when I was about 15 years old. I didn’t go into it to prove PM is good for fighting, or even get in shape. I went into PM to learn how to fight.

I was bullied severely when I was younger, and I was fed up with going home crying. I was once tied to a fence with belts and had firecrackers thrown at my feet. Other times, the abuse was more severe.
After about 1 year of training in PM diligently, I kicked a$$ and people stopped bullying me. That was the easy part.

I hit my late teens, early 20s’ and went from being bullied to being “challenged”. I’ve fought boxers, street fighters, martial artists (at least they claimed to be), and lotsa folks just out of prison, strong and aggressive from lack of sex. I wish I could say I’m undefeated, but that would be a big, fat, lie.

I WILL say that if it wasn’t for PM Kung Fu, I wouldn’t have been as comfortable or as effective in these combat situations as I was. I was born and raised on the Lower East Side of Manhattan which is a tough neighborhood, period.

I am forever grateful to my Sifu for accepting me as a student and teaching me PM because I was able to fight in the streets of NYC and not get hurt seriously.

If a person wants to prove superiority and combat ability in a NHB fight or tournament, more power to them. As for me, I’m content with being comfortable and able to defend myself on the “J” train as I ride it through Brooklyn. :cool:

Peace…

P.S.:
I WOULD get my but kicked in a tournament.