Inovation~imagination~or stagnation

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
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I just want to say something as a warrior and not just a martial artist.. If I see something that I can use that is effective I will use it.. I doesnt hold any relevence to me that my system does not have a certain kick or punch if it is effective I will use it… My shifu taught me a kick that most people would say is to stupid or dangerous to use.. It was a front flip that landed one heel kick to the shoulder and one to the face ( I acctually used it in tournaments and it always had the same effect and other shifu’s always came to my teacher and ask for him to have me demo it )… IT is a great surprise move and I only use it once on my opponent because they would then be waiting for it…
I also used a jumping sissor leg take down and a back hand spring kick or a butterfly kick in my fighting .. I learned how to time it to pull these surprise moves off. Alot of you may think I am talikng out of my back side but as shifu Ortiz.. I thank him for showing me these techniques and for pushing me to beable to pull them off.

Sorry for rambeling but my point is just because a system doesnt have a certian technique doesnt mean you cant incorparte it into the system.. I rather stray away from the tradition and impprove the style than stick to tradition and grow stagnate..
In all actuallity that is what kung fu masters did in the past after they master there craft they learned a new skill combined it and add there experience to create there vision of there art… Those who do not question and take everything as face value will be doomed to stay at one level of skill and understanding. Those who question, test and elimanate skills that do not work for them will grow and excel. Master always removed moves that they deemed unuseful but remember what is useful for U may not work for someone else…

Vic

[This message has been edited by mantis7 (edited 08-18-2000).]

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Bravo Mantis7! That’s how martial arts evolve. You have to take what works best for you, and specialize in it. I personally wouldnt go for the acrobatic moves in a real combat situation, but whatever suits you.

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I don’t belive that in terms of hand to hand combat, much more then what has been done can really be called inovative. Espicaly in terms of CMA due to the wide verity of styles and ideas that evolved in a time before handguns and modern warfare.

Mantis has such a wide range of movements combined in a rather unique way. By inovative due you mean that you use a movement not found in mantis? or some movements contained in mantis not commonly used by any other mantis players ?

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[This message has been edited by bamboo_ leaf (edited 08-19-2000).]

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Paul I never used those moves in a “REAL” combat situation only in full contact sparring with my brothers or in a tournament.
in a street situation i would use those out of sheer desperation…

what I mean about inovation is like this I have seen the iron bridge skill of hung gar.. so why not learn it and incorperate it into my mantis.. OR the chi kung skills of a white crane stylist or even the bjj or japanese shoto wrestiling.. My mantis is still practiced traditionally but my fighting skill is a combo of thai boxing, mantis, chan shou, escrima, cadena de mano, shoto wrestiling, but a majority is of mantis but I took the strong points I liked from the other systems and added it to my mantis to improve my skills and added new flavor to the way I played my mantis..

            Quote

Mantis has such a wide range of movements combined in a rather unique way. By inovative due you mean that you use a movement not found in mantis? or some movements contained in mantis not commonly used by any other mantis players ?

Well what I do I look at the mantis systems attacks and developed stratergy to defeat the techniques.. I used training methods from other systems. I used movements thought by others to be non effective. also I like working on my broken rythmn while fighting with a right hand lead ( south paw style) this throughs people off… but like I say it works for me and may not work for you. kung fu is a tradition but it is also self expression.. That is whay the mantis master created so many diffrent branches.. Like I belong to this mail ring and I just heeard of a yanti and a shangdong mantis.. I never even knew theses sytems exsisted but they do. one seems to be bagua influeneced if I am not wrong ( please dont quote me lol )

to each there own cup of tea

Victor

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some really good thoughts, had a freind who played Hung Gar many yrs ago, very strong and tough system. Not my cup of tea. Have you had the chance to study other branches of PM ? some really diffent and cool ideas out there. If you get a chance please check out some tai-chi. I think that this would really help anyones development and MA understanding.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

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bamboo leaf, I already study some tai chi and northern mantis. I love the different styles.

The idea that hung gar is only hard, strong, and rigid, is just a popular misconception.

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Mantis7, your mantis is not traditional. If it was you would know how to fight and not have to go shopping for basics. The fact that you mention your mantis seperate from your fighting skill worries me. You can’t mix your mantis fighting because you don’t know mantis fighting. What are you getting from Thai boxing that Mantis doesn’t offer? What style of Mantis do you practice? Who is your teacher(hint-better to find a qualitfied karate teacher than your current mantis Sifu)? As for the acrobatics there is no scoffing or explaining needed. If you can kick ass doing what you do and your students, regardless of body type fat, thin, weak, strong etc can use the style to successfully win fights then its safe to say that you have a good style. If not, go find a better style. No one takes a simester of chemistry and a class or two of psycology and creates a new science. Why do people think they can conjure up a martial art without having an educational equivelent to a doctorate in it?

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Dear Shifu8step mantis

First let me introduce my self.. I am Victor Roman I am 25 years old I served in The US armed Forces…I have trained in the arts for about 19 years.. My mother system is 7 star praying mantis. I have been exposed to Thai boxing, japanese shot wrestiling, silat , 4 versions of arnis, cadena de mano ( phillipino hand art) Chang shou, southern mantis, hung ga, capoeria, and a version of toysanies mantis…

Now to say who my 7 star mantis shifu is his name is Shifu Raul Ortiz.. HE is a very traditional mantis syslist.. he represents lee kam wing.. I think if he thinks shifu is a good kung fu stylist then it is good enough for me…By the by he also trains in Thai, He introduced it to me. he also studies other arts to increase his skills…Is he untrue to his art or maybe he doesnt know traditional mantis either… and if you think he doesnt I would happy to send your thoughts along to him… IF I recall Shifu Sun was impressed by my shifu at one tournament and walked up to my shifu and complemented him on his skill… ( I know Shifu Sun is a 8 step shifu or GM or something I am no to sure) but hey what do I know my mantis isnt legit…

Also as soon as I heal from illness I will be training with shifu Carl Albright… Who by the way also studies Bagua , southern mantis and hung ga.. IS he anything like what you are saying I am about… I highly doubt that…

You should not make wide assumptions with out knowledge.. The reason I mention my mantis fighting skills seperate from what I learned from other system is because mantis holds a very special place in my heart. IT is my life my soul my passion.

As for thai boxing I learned great kicking skills even though mantis has kicking skills. I learned cut kicks and shin to shin kicks that have proed to be very effective in stopping mantis practioners in there tracks… I learn to use a system by training in it and I have the foresight and ability to use skills to defeat my own system.

My training is like a second job I train 40 + hours a week.My basisc are strong that is why I am able to cross train in other arts and get the most out of them. A begginer could not do this… MY shifu had the trust in me to allow me to open his school and close it at nite and from the jump I was allowed to train with my shifu one on one.. He never held back on me and always beat my @$$. I reciever broken ribs from him dislocated knee caps and other injuries and I relished every one. I learned from one of the best… He trained me harder that anyone else because I was the youngster of the group I had to prove myself.. He trained me to the point of tears and made me go beyond my limits..
During my so called black sash test ( I hate ranking) I had to fight 10 matches 3 min a piece against my senior brothers..During the test I was sick with the flu as well as with asthma but I still completed the test. I had to do my kuens ( empty hand as well as weapons) self defense techniques and two man boxing drills. I pulled a tendon in my ankle and injured my back as well as got knocked out but I got back up and continued. Oh and that thai kick I learned put one of my brothers down in one blow… ITs hard to fight when you leg is cramped up and you cant move it . Try using mantis footwork when your leg doesnt work… My shifu has trained us to use or mantis in real combat not controlled sparring sessions.

Now to answer your statement about chemistry and psychology… Well scientist actually do take a semester of psy and chem.. I am studying biopsychology.. THe study of chemicals on the humand brain. We study the chemical effect foregin substance have on the brain. Do not make comments that you may have no knowledge of…
And yes scientist do take other sciences and put them together to create a new study it is called proggress. for example astro physics. astronomy and physiscs.. Hmmmmmm or am I wrong… computer science its mathematics and language but hey what do I know…you talk about a doctorate degree.. I never claimed to making a new system I was talking about furthering my skill… Now if I wasnt mistaken wong long combined several of his skills to create mantis <<<STOP ME IF I AM WRONG>> now remember that knowledge is not gained through measurement of time. Because you can learn a vast amount of knowledge in a short amout of time compared to the amount of knowledge gained…How long do you think wong long had studied before creating the mantis system… With his experience against his senior brother he created the mantis system ( you do know the story right) HE then decided to add monkey foot work to the system after seeing that his hands were fast but need the speed of the legs as well << tell me if I am going to fast for you>>> but he didnt invent the wheel martial skill was already there. He just made a better mode of transportaion for himself.. IF wong Long thought like you there wouldnt be a *8stepshifu you would be named *lohan shifu or *long fist shifu… plus wasnt eagle claw added to mantis…??? Well like I said what do I know…

I am a warrior and as such I look to improve myslef and add diffrent ( not better) weapons to my arsenal… Right away when someone even talks about self improvement or improvement on a style someone always rears there head and say who are you to do this… WELL I SAY WITH PRIDE I MAY BE THE NEXT WONG LONG… prove me wrong 8 step

I learn other system to take there speacialties from them and add them to my idea of mantis but it is still 7 star mantis …Why ommitt a special skill just because it is from another style.. ie iron bridge from hung ga,
chi na tech from egale claw, wrestiling shuai jiao or what ever the case may be. if I need to see a genral practioner doctor I go see one but if I need a specialist I go see a specialist. I do the same with my gung fu training. I see no problem with this actually to any REAL PRACTIONER this would seem like the best road chosen!!!@!!!

With out visonaries there will be no progress and with no proggress there is no growth and only stagnation… feel free to tell me if I am wrong…

Many masters had the foresight to add to there styles as they grew to become better artist…I am a bit worry about that you have not noticed this yet.. do not train with blinds on. stop looking through the hole in the fence that the kung fu master train behind… look over it and see that there is many master training behind the fence.. remember everyone has there own peace of sky.. your is yours and mine is mine but when you put them together you have a better view to look at…

by the way

how old are you

how long have you trained

who is your shifu

do you study tactics, human respone reactions, fear conditioning, or anything that pertains to fight or flight reaction.

what is a doctoral degree in kug fu equilivant to…( TIME <YEARS < MONTHS DAYS< HOURS< MIN< SECONDS <NANO SECONDS< )

and if someone does mantis diffrent or has diffrent ideas on than you does it make it <<NON TRADITIONAL>>

BUT Always remember that mantis is a hogpoge of styles.. Tai chi mantis yanti mantis plum blossom mantis long fist mantis flate plate mantis jade mantis wah lum mantis shang dong mantis

everyone express themselves diffrently. if you like the road you travel than fine. but remember life has to much to offer dont limit yourself because you will be the one who defeats yourself…
There is more to martial arts training than conditioning, forms, fighting, THERE IS A WHOLE WORLD OUT THERE STOP LOOKING AT THE GROUND AND BASK IN THE GLORY OF THE SKY…
remember you set your limits and the SKY IS MINE>>>>

Victor Roman <<TRADITIONAL MANTIS PRACTIONER AND DAM PROUD OF IT>>>><< LET SOMEONE PROVE ME WRONG>>>>>

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Hey I see you study tai chi and mantis.. So you can study tai ch iand use it in your fighting repritiore but I cant study tahi boxing and add it to my mantis to make it better..

You sir just made yourself look silly , foolish and a hipocrit…

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Leaf thanks for the idea of taking tai chi… I will need it feel soon I am recovering from a illness that made me loss 5 percent or 10 percent use of one of my lungs.. nut I am getting better and will be back to training in no time… So tai chi may be on my plate so as long as no one has a objection to that, LOL 8step nuthing personal and sorry for that last quote when I saw that you train tai chi and mantis I got very angry and loss my cool.. but you judged me and whats mine while doing what you do but I garannte that you use yor taichi right along side your mantis. whether you like it or not but your training has casued you to combiune your taichi skills along with your 8 step mantis now you move and play your skill like a 8 step taichi mantis lol… sorry for the joke at your expense good luck with your training and I hope we get to meet one day and trade ideas and maybe get a chance to touch hands.. Maybe when we bleed together you can see my point of view and I could see yours.. we would be real blood brothers lol

later Victor

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Vic,

hope you recover soon.

vic/8step

many of my post on cross training tends to be in the neg. due to my experinces with the many people who say that they play CMA then when they fight/spare/touch hands it looks nothing like what they demonstarighted.

Some even veiw the setwork as only for tradition only, and they base thire fighting style more towards the ring.

I always belived useage should flow from the training. And training should be orinted towards usage. The people I’ve met that I would consider very good gen held true to what every it was that they taught dureing live training.

I met and even trained a little with Sifu James Sun (8-steps) when he was here in San Francisco. Anything that he showed he could esily do with lighting speed and power.
At that time he had some very strong views on training a Karata guy who wanted to train with him after he did a live demo againts the guy, useing 8-step ( I guess the guy wanted to cross train) anyway he refused to train him.

I have found Tai-chi to be very good for unlocking many doors in my owen training.
I have trained with Ben Lo’s (cheng Man Ching style)class when he was teaching in San
Francisco very intresting and scary stuff.

It helped unlock many aspects of mantis in my own training. I might add that was before working out with my present teacher.

take care.

enjoy life

bamboo leaf

[This message has been edited by bamboo_ leaf (edited 08-21-2000).]

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Very interesting discussion

Its me Nathan, I’m a student of Chiu Leun and one of Carl Albright’s gung fu brothers. I would just like to say few things.

  1. The methods and moves of our version of 7 star mantis are many. To try and master them all in the span of a couple of years is not very likely. What usually happens is that one find those methods that are simple to understand and use them as gateway to embracing the more complex movement.

  2. As Carl Albright and our Sifu as stated each movemnet often has at least three possible applications and their use depends on the situation at the time, but also the level of ones skill.

  3. Ones method of training will also influnce how long it takes to be able to use a move in street combat. Forms, two man drill, iron palm conditioning, diet, breath control, and mediation are all factor in how will and long it takes one to learn our sect of 7 star mantis.

  4. Patience is also a key. To understand 7 star Mantis one must accept it fighting concept and not try to mold too quickly fit one concept of the physcial combat or kinetics. Very few people are patient enough to embrace true mantis thoery and I do not blame them. We live in a world the quick fit and ready wear everything. If you want a quick fit just study some self defence system.
    Good mantis boxer is at least some of the following.

a. Able show restraint in combat and in social behavior, because of not only legal reason, but moral ones. This restraint takes great physical self knowledge and depth of character.

b. A good mantis boxer must have emotional peace of mind and understand of human behavior to not only avoid non life threating combat, but to make their opponent an ally.

c. One ablity to support one’s family and community has been a factor in the development a many martial arts style. It is also one reason why not all strikes are death blows. The strenght of our system is sometimes understood by embracing it indirect meaning.

note: Sifu Su also teachs a 7 star mantis, but its different from Hong Kong versions of the system. He is also very combat orientated, he is one of the few Northern teacher many Wing Chun artist respect. I have also studied with him for a short time.

good luck
to all, om peace

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Nathan ,LEaf

Thank you for your response,

we meet before I was about 17 at the time and you showed me a odd kick from mantis that at the time I thought was ineffective.. but as I gre in ther mantis system I learned that all wasntr what it seemed, you are right on every point you set forth but I would like to add something..

As a gung fu practioner you should no over look an individuals exp and learned ability..

Everyone has there time spent in training all of my training came through my shif except the last 2 years…anything I learned was ok by him for having combat validity…

There is no such things as one system being the Magic Bullet.. Gung fu no matter what system is all interlinked on basic principle of body mechanics, emotional and mental response, and in all actuallity all combat systmes are linked no materr how simple or complexed.. IF some can learn one system and see the strong points in it they should beable to see what is useful to them in other systems. ( even though some say its not true for everyone but after spending years of training one should beable to do so )

but like I always say what do I know I am still a begginer in these here martial arts I have only a limited amount of time training 19 years is just a drop in the bucket to some of these true master.. they have been around alot longer than me and have crossed trained ins sytems that helped them out in there training. I thought I do the same. BUt I did as they said train until you have a strong foundation. Learn the rules before trying to break them.. I still have a very strong basic, interm and advance grasp of my training but I still dont break the rules I try to enhance them..

Victor

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Thanks nathan …

You are right on the patience and time to learn… I have only aroughly 7 to 8 years in mantis and I am still unlocking new doors in my skill… That is why I am glad I meet shifu Albright..

BUt one thing I find interesting is that other systems may do the same movements as us but in a diffrent can help you understand your system more deeply and give you a new profound insight into your sytem of thought and training..
I try not to judge no one but one thing that sets me off is how can someone who never has seen me play of train judge me…
Even you complemented me on my Daw gong ( avoiding hardness)( sorry didnt spell the forms name right)at the tournament. YOu said was good but not to blast through it. you said I showed power and speed but needed to show the application more by pausing during certain key spots. They you proceeded to show me the that kick and talk to me about swimming dragon palm form (I think that was the form or was it descending egales palm)
I then asked you if you could teach me it but you said I would have to asked my shifu.
THen you told me on how it was wrong to jump from SHifu to shifu that tradtion was very important to follow and beloyal and no make him lose face by asking…
That conversation helped mold me into a better martial artisit… All my training I stood with my shifu.. I him everything. BUT things happen i moved on. From there on in I traine4d with another shifu and was loyal to him until I went to the military. when I train under someone I am loyal to them I do not jump around like a kwoon hopper collecting forms…
But you are right Nathan and your words have inspired me to expunge some traits that may be lacking. sometimes I have to much pride and take someone juding me to much to heart.. BUt heartfelt critisim is good but you got to see me in action first lol .. but as I can see I will forever be a student ..

Victor

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MANTIS 7 YOUR ARTICLE IS VERY INTERESTING. I DONT HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCE BUT THERE ARE TEACHERS WHO DONT BELIEVE IB SPARRING AS ITS A BAD HABIT AS YOU DONT MEET BROTHERS IN A REAL FIGHT.ALSO EVERTHING INCLUDING LAW AND POLITICS ARE TECNIQUES SO THE IDEA OF ‘STYLE’ IS A ILLUSION. MOST STYLES HAVE THE SAME CURRICULUM OF TECNIQUES EVEN IF THEY APPEAR DIFFERENT.?

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Nathan:

Do you know Sifu Raymond Nelson as well? I’m studying under Master Ly in Chicago, he taught in NY for some time. Perhaps you remember him?

Tak

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Thank you all for your thoughtful replys

First I would like to say I agree with all that was said. Ones can and should use pass experience in martial arts, sports, and life in general in learning and practicing 7 star mantis. The style was not created in a vacuum. It is a thoughtful blending of 18 systems that Wang lang based our style. NOTE: These styles are mentioned in Lee Kam Wing first book “Seven Star Praying Mantis” by Leung Ting on page 34.

I myself have studied Hindu yoga and Mo Dung Pai which has helped me respect the human body and its spiritual aspects. I also have studied dance and movement therapy, which my gung fu brother loves to give me good natured ribbing about now and than. Although, they would agree that the kinetic and body machanics learned from these things have value.

It all good I guess is what I mean. Just don’t change the forms when you do hopefully teach, without permission from your teacher or their instructor. Which is a whole other big issue these days.

Victor: Thanks for listening to me at that tournament. One of the reasons I still go to such events is to share information in a casual manner. I always feels good to know ones efforts have not been wasted.

Comment for today is a expansion on your own words. --A good 7 Star Mantis Boxer is always a student. When you under
underestimate your opponent you overestimate yourself.–

olkat314: mentioned that he studied with Raymond Nelson as well. I remeber Raymond his, is one of the best Chiu Leun students. What ever happen to him? I have only heard abot Master Ly, is his first name Raymond also? If so, thats the instructor that Sifu Chiu visited: to teach, sometimes in the 1980s. What happen to him, too?

thanks to all
take care
on the web: www.digitalavatar.org/7star.htm

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Nathan:

Right, it’s Master Raymond Ly. Raymond Nelson, i have no idea. I assume he became a sifu and is now teaching somewhere. Master Raymond Ly is in Chicago, he moved there after finishing his studies with Chiu Chi Man, and is now teaching semi-privately. Have you taken lessons with him?

How’s Master Chiu Leun?

Tak

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Never took classes with Raymond Ly, just know about him. Sifu is ok overall, I think he is still in Hon Kong, hanging out again. He goes there a once a year usually.

Nathan