Raiden
I would assume that Glen Moore would be the guy. From what I was told he’s his Ranking…(haha, ranking) student currently. When I trained there it was with a student that had been learning DIRECTLY from Park amny days a week for 3 years and his power just wasn’t there with the training he was being given…
reply
This is my reply to bt, maoshan and bblt65.
watching parks video does not do justice to seeing what type of power he is generating. there are alot of mechanics involved in his methods of issuing power.
It is called the method of lu shuai tien, who studied in china with several lineages. it is not claimed to be anything yin fu, but some aspects are said to RESEMBLE that of yin fu style when researching the orgin. thats for historical purposed and i am not a historian i am a martial artist and i will train and not waste my time looking into orgins of something that they cant determin where pakua came from.
glen moore is an excellent student and instructior. anyone who claims to be a mastetr and stops learning is not a true teacher. Glen is humble and a true martial artist in the sense of loyalty, progression and evolving and deep research into pakua. I respect the man and he will never waste his time online listening to useless debates for bama “a” from bagua school “c” or bagua backstreet boy “k” from baua school “f”.
the purpose of the board and orginal purpose of the message has been lost, but that doesnt mean the method and art of my pakua school is invalid or weak. obviously if yu believe it it is real, the method of fajing i have come across are valid and powerful. the other bagua school i have been to doesnt matter. you dont know or heard of those people anyways in va.
its all about practicing a little bit real deeply, not knowing alot and done badly. it takes patience, practice and a good mind to grasp the depth of wushu “war arts” especially pakua, so I will stick with what i know to be valid after meeting many pakua teachers. I am very ecentric and look for the best. i havent been to ny for a while so i dont know what is happening there. thats why i want to see this pakua tournament.
hope to see you there i make it, there is a good chance i will.
Ma_Xu_Zha,
I’m only going to address this because after all this time of reading what you have to say on topics that you obviously have little knowledge of, you need to know some things. First I’m going to address what you wrote.
(Watching parks video does not do justice to seeing what type of power he is generating).
To the untrained eye your right, but as you yourself admit you know little.
(It is called the method of lu shuai tien, who studied in china with several lineages.)
Where did you get this info? According to the books, he was supposed to have learned from Yin Fu. No mention of other Sifu’s was ever stated. In fact it was from only the Yin Family that it was confirmed that he Knew Ba-Gua. Your fabricating things.
(it is not claimed to be anything yin fu, but some aspects are said to RESEMBLE that of yin fu style when researching the orgin)
Again, were did you get this Info? Lu is not in the records of anybody other than Yin Fu, so the methods should be of Yin Fu. I’ve studied with 3 different branches of the Yin system and researched others, and I saw only one method that resembled Yin style,
The rest was Cheng.
(thats for historical purposed and i am not a historian i am a martial artist and i will train and not waste my time looking into orgins of something that they cant determin where pakua came from.)
I’m both. The history and technique both intrigue me equally. To master the art is my goal in life. Now as far as the history goes that’s apart of researching and authenticating what it is I’m learning. There are to many fakes running around making grand claims. I can determine a lot from my research.
(obviously if yu believe it it is real, the method of fajing i have come across are valid and powerful. the other bagua school i have been to doesnt matter. you dont know or heard of those people anyways in va.)
You’d be surprised to know whom I know. You’re evading the question.
(its all about practicing a little bit real deeply, not knowing alot and done badly. it takes patience, practice and a good mind to grasp the depth of wushu “war arts” especially pakua,
What you say here is very very true, but think you got that from a book.
(so I will stick with what i know to be valid after meeting many pakua teachers
So are you saying that Sifu Park is the end all be all of Ba-Gua?
Please come to the Tournament so that you can see the difference. You have been seriously misled to come to the conclusions that you have. The Instructors that you have met are just that Instructors and not that good either. Get off the Internet and get some real experience. The fact that you are on line here professing to know what you’re talking about and you don’t. Is the reason most of the good teachers don’t post. You argue with invalid facts and try to pass them off as truth. Come to the Tournament please. Come learn something.
Maoshan
Glen Wright? How come no one mentions this guy?
Hey blkbelt65,
You had me thinking - since I’ve been on this board for some time now I notied that Gleen Moore is mention all the time and Glen Wright is barely mention. Since he is or was (I dont know) Park’s senior student why isn’t he mention more frequently? From your experience have you noticed that? Also it seems that he is the only senior student (or student) that fought in competition. (If I’m wrong someone please enlighten me.)
Also did you feel that their method of training is realistic?
Ma,
Regardless of the debate that you are having on this forum - I do commend you for trying to get a team together for Maoshan tournament. Many people in the Pakua world are curious about the skills the Park’s students. That is a fact… This would be a good chance to for them help break the image of Park’s school being like a McDonald’s franchise or a Tiger Schulmann’s Karate franchise. I’ve had some experiences with Park’s school so it would be interesting to see them represent represent as you stated previously.
maoshan
you have some serious friendly fire my friend.
first off …lets talk reasonably without emotional personal attacks and abide on a level of wisdom for a moment to reach clarity on the subject of bagua/pakua.
i am not going to be an pakua authority, but i will use humbleness always. The claim to KNOW pakua is not my league, nor do i have the balls to try to be something i am not (pakua authority)
i know who I am and thats a pure neija student (of 12 years and going, no karate or anything), of course I can learn alot at a baugua tournament, thats why i want to go, but i have a good mind to judge what i know to be useful and useless in my training syllabas.
I find parks methods useful, it makes up a good portion of my pakua training. therefore its not a end all, but a fundamental aspect.
as for being online…that about an hour a week vs 14 hour class time training, not including training at home or in forest.
lu shui tien studied with li ching wu his primary teacher, he did train in some yin fu style with yin fu son in law; he chin keui.
park does not state that it is yin fu. it really doesnt matter, like tai chi pakua is based on principles, i really dont care of its history like i stated before, its practicing that does matter to me.
i dont fabricate anything, and what i know comes from experience not books. gleen moore is in va, other glenn wright is like on west coast somewhere.
we are all brothers of the same art but with different shades.
i am not a politician nor historian.
ma
Man, I just realized I spend waaaayyy to much time online, lol. Anyway, I’ll tell my teacher about the Bagua tournement too when I get a chance. We’ve only got 3 people learning Bagua(still beginers-our school is young) but they might be interested in seeing what else is out there. It’s kind of isolated here in Ohio 
Ma_Xu_Zha
First, You Claimed to be ( if not in word then in deed) an authority
on parks Ba-Gua by what you posted.
(I find parks methods useful, it makes up a good portion of my pakua training.)
There’s no augument there. FOR YOU it’s all good. But what you said leads one to believe that he is “the end all be all” of Ba-Gua.
Read what you posted.
(lu shui tien studied with li ching wu his primary teacher, he did train in some yin fu style with yin fu son in law; he chin keui.)
This statement does not coinside with the known story. Sifu Park is suppose to be teaching Yin Style Ba-Gua. Lu Shui Tien was a student of Yin Fu not He Jin Kui. Li Ching Wu is not known in any Lineage. Unless he’s known by another name, it’s supect.
(park does not state that it is yin fu. it really doesnt matter, like tai chi pakua is based on principles, i really dont care of its history like i stated before, its practicing that does matter to me.)
He may not have mentioned it in either the videos or the books, but it has been known for some time now that he claims to be the closed door disiple of Lu who was a student of Yin Fu. The name of Li showed up in the book. (after the fact). Most Ba-Gua people know the Lineage of thier style. If it was not Yin Fu Than why say it is. There was no mention of Li being Lu’s primarary teacher. Again a problem.
As for the piont on the principles I agree, but as far as the history goes, How do you know that your technique is correct? Using it on none and low level Martial Artist is no proof. Indeph Research
is the only way to know. It’s like a new MA with no prior experiance what so ever seeing a Iron Palm demo where the exponent breacks a few bricks and the new MA thinks this the best thing they ever saw and the exponent plays on the Ma’s ignorance and has him thinking that he’s the best and he can teach him to be the best as well. Now they gain this ablility. they think they’ve got it all , Until they meet ( not a master) but a high level practitioner who can drop you to your knees with a light touch. Rude awakening Hah?
“Practice doesn’t make perfect. Perfect practice Makes perfect.”
How do you know what your doing if you have nothing to compare it with? This isn’t 1802 when communication was not as it is now. I disagree with your point of view.
I have nothing against you Ma, I’m just pointing things out your either not paying attention to or choose not to. Either way it’s your call. Your post are the opposit of what you claim to be.
Reread them and think about it.
Other than that, hope to see at the tournament.
Peace
Maoshan
RAZAKDIGITAL
What’s up man,
You are truly right about that…Glen Wright is barely mentioned, EVER. And yes, he has competed in full contact with BaGua. I’ve heard Glen Wright is good. Never met Moore and never heard anything good on this board about him for that matter.
The methods “may” have been good but for the amount of time(2 years) I got to spend with Park I wouldn’t know. It was more than 100 bucks a month and for a Teacher that was hardly ever there, that’s way too much cash! He was always off at some seminar somwhere in the world, OTHER than at his own school. The guy at the school I trained was there for 3.5 years before I got there and he sucked… I went on to train and the teach Moy Yats Wing Chun and currently study hsing-I.
Peace…
FYI:
From:
http://www.pa-kua.com/park.htm
"As a testament to his authenticity, Park Bok-Nam’s name appears on a stele that was erected at the burial site of Dong Hai-Chuan* in China (see picture at right), formally documenting him as a true sixth generation lineage disciple. We are aware of no other Pa Kua practitioner in the U.S. that has this distinction. "
I just wanted to throw this out there, I don’t have an opinion on
the subect (whether Park’s students can represent bagua), really.
I might also add that master Park sounds like a very traditional teacher.
His site says that he was born in 1942. Very few of you out there
know what it is like to deal with a Korean man of this age,
because most of us were born in the states. I can speak from
experience that there is a lot of room for confusion, frustration,
misunderstanding based on this fact. The site says that master
Park came to the states in 1987. That means that he was 45
years old at the time, which makes it understandable if he hasn’t
assimilated completely into American culture/cultural
expectations.
None of this means that master Park is the right/wrong teacher
for you. I just hope that this helps to explain where he is
coming from.
I’ve never trained with him, so this is just my take on what could
be going on.
Peace - please
Ma_Xu_Zha
Ma_Xu_Zha …Do you train with Park directly? If so, how long have you been directly learning from him?
Ma_Xu_Zha
Do you train with Park directly? If so, how long have you been directly learning from him?
What was a day in Park schools?
What’s up blkbelt65
Could you tell us how was a regular day in Parks school? What kind of training did you get there? What was last straw for you when you said you had enough?
Hi
Here is different perspective.
From the book" Fundamentals of Pa Kua Chang" by Park Boc Nam and Dan Miller.
Page 10
“The Pa kua chang instructor Lu Shui Tien found was Li Chin-Wu(1864,?).
When Lu met Li and began the study of Pa Kua Chang,he was still a teenager.Li did not live in Chin Tao but in a town wich was about a two day ride by horse norh of Chin Tao.
Lu Shui-Tien would frequently make the two day journey to his teacher town to study.”
“Not much is known about Li Chin-Wu himself,Park Boc Nam does knot know who Li’s teacher was,however,Lu did tell him that Li only had 10 Pa kua students .
Li students kept to themselves and thus the Pa Kua Chang as taught by Li Ching-Wu was not widely spread.”
Page 12
"After Li Chin-Wu died ,Lu Shui Tien sought out another Pa Kua Instructor and subsequently studied with fourth generation practitioner in Tung Hai-Chuan lineage.
Lu told Park that he felt his first teacher ,Li Chin-Wu,taught a more complete ma system than his second teacher because it combined straight line methods with the circle walking forms and maneuvers.
Park does not know the name of Lu’s second teacher.
He states that Lu seldom spoke of his own background.Whenever Park would ask a question that related to Lu’s background Lu’s response was “that question will not help your practice”.
Park also states that he was not particulary interested in his teacher’s background . He knew that his teacher was good at martial arts and so he was not concern about where it came from.
Park says that one reason his teacher did not like to tell stories about himself or other MA was because these stories always get blown out of proportion.
Lu felt that if a student hears to many fantastic stories about martial arts ability, they will have an unrealistic sense of what can be accomplished and will aim for unrealistic goals.
Foccusing on unrealistic goals will take the student’s mind off of the fundamental training methods wich develop real skill’’
"Today the name Lu Shui-Tien is well known among the practitioners of the Yin Fu lineage.
They know he was from Chin Taoand and that he have left the country during the japanese war.
Several of the practitioners mentioned that they thought Lu Shui-Tien’s second teacher had studied with Yin Fu’s son-in- law,He Chin-Kuei.
While this has not being confirmed,it will make sense that one or both of Lu’s teachers were of the Yin Fu lineage because much of the Pa Kua Chang that he taught is very characteristic of the Yin Fu Style
.
Park’s teacher did tell him that his second Pa Kua instructor’s Pa Kua method only contained practice wich was based on circle walking .
Lu felt that the straight line practice and directional footwork training he received from his first teacher was very beneficial in the development of fighting skill.
Park also assumes that his teacher shared Pa Kua knowledge with many of his martial arts contemporaries as Lu traveled widely and enjoy visiting other MA where ever he went.
Park also states that Lu also practiced and refined his skills everyday with a band of gerrilla fighters he ran with during the japanese war."
Ok,back to practice.
dear maoshan
>According to the books, he was supposed to have learned from Yin Fu.
>He may not have mentioned it in either the videos or the books,
>but it has been known for some time now that he claims to be the
>closed door disiple of Lu who was a student of Yin Fu.
so where do you get your information from? in your first message you said, that is is from the books and in the second you said “it may not be from the books” 
it is definitively not from the books. Do you know where you get your information from or is this just some kind of nebulous statement?
Guandi
razakdigital …What’s Up.
A regular day for me might have different than for the others because I trained during the day…just me and Park…when he was around anyway!:mad:
Training was just walking the circle in static postures. Don’t get me wrong, I was only there 2 years and I have no problem with the basics.
And Lots of freakin meditating…which I can easily do at home. I don’t believe that Money and Time should be spent sitting in a room ALONE meditating. That’s not what “class” is about. Hell, there’s no reason to go all the way to the school and pay all that money to sit alone in a room and breathe…
My problem is that being that I was there during the day and one of his more “senior” students that would show up now and then sucked! The last straw you ask… He was never around and I didn’t have some bag o’ money at my disposal to keep shellin out to the man.
later Raz…
far from the nest
i havent been around park or the school in over 6 years. i just know what it useful from my experience there. there are 3 tuitions you can pay- i paid the second best one for 100 a month that way you can spend more time there and i did. it was worth it. park was not always there but he kept record of every student and what they learned. he respects students that train hard, dont talk and think deep on what taught, or practice other martial arts.
i got chewed out for doing sun taiji there once.
he has 14 warm-ups
a dozen stretching techniques that are really good
palm methods
pakua body exercise
foot work
chi kung
meditation
circle walking
3 traditional kung fu forms like chang chuan, ba gi
long weapon
broadsword
straight sword
pole walking
two person drills
a complete system to me that would take a lifetime to master.
Fact and Truth is the answer
The Pa kua chang instructor Lu Shui Tien found was Li Chin-Wu(1864,?).
Ok. Lets keep $hit real here. For one there is no Li Chin Wu in any of the Ba Gua Zhang lineage. The man is a Myth.
Two if This Li Chin Wu guy was real, How come Park Bok Nam own Ba Gua Zhang teacher Lu Shui Tien don’t even know when his Ba Gua teacher died?Chin-Wu(1864,?). But yet Park Bok Nam teacher claims here in this statement:
"After Li Chin-Wu died ,Lu Shui Tien sought out another Pa Kua Instructor and subsequently studied with fourth generation practitioner in Tung Hai-Chuan lineage.
The bottom line Mr. Park Bok Nam whole lineage story is very inaccurate. three are a lot of bull$hit in his story. And I know when Maoshan see this one he is going to kill this story by exploding the myths of this Bull$hit lineage story.
A lot of you guys need to open up your eyes, There is no fact or truth in any of Parks above statement. how can Park teacher claim to have studied with a fourth generation practitioner in Tung Hai-Chuan lineage, But don’t even know the teachers name or even when thissought out another Pa Kua Instructor guy died. $hit Park teacher claims not to know even when his first teacher died. but in his book he claims:
After Li Chin-Wu died ,Lu Shui Tien sought out another Pa Kua Instructor
From the above statement you see, that Park teacher had to know when his techer died. But they claim they don’t know. This looks very faulty in logic.
The Bottom line is, The Ba Gua Zhang lineage of Tung Hai Ch’uan and his top students is well recorded, and this Li Chin-Wu is not. :o
If you are going to reply with a post, reply with a post that is conforming to fact and truth.
You can fool some of the people, some of the time, but you can’t fool some of the people all of the time.
The whole lineage thing is silly. I couldn’t tell you when my grandfather died. I was alive, went to the funeral, but I was young and could only say it was in the early '80s. Also, just because something is not well recorded, does not mean it is or was not so.
I agree with you, there is a lot of phony-ballony out there. But in the end, who cares. If you study with park, you’re studying from park, not from his teachers. If the info being taught is good, who cares where it comes from. Also, blackbelt, unfortunately, that’s the way it goes many times when you train with a “name.” There name keeps them out of the training hall, or in their back office counting your money. 'Tis life.
Spirit Writer I agree with your statement about the lineage thing. Because I can care less about Park Bok Nam lineage, or what he is teaching. But if people are going to talk about Ba Gua Zhang old past masters and their lineage. Then My opinion is they should have post statements conforming to fact and truth, not post misleading and untrue information. All that do is show “stupidity”
I shouldn’t get involved in this discussion (any more than I have),
but the quest for truth is always interesting…
…can anyone verify/disprove that master Park’s name is on that
tombstone (or whatever it is) at Dong Hai_Chuan’s
grave/tomb/memorial? Wouldn’t Bagua masters have freaked
about this if he does not really know bagua?
Thanks everyone.