Boxing vs. Kung-Fu and other Asian MA's

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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My base is Muay Thai + Muay Thai and BJJ if it goes to the ground. One of my interests is to spar vs. other styles to pickup different techniques that I can use vs. Muay Thai and mainstream MMA in general. Once in a while, we would get someone from other styles training in our MT class. But they usually get clobbered in the hands dept. or when clinched.

Versus Kung-Fu, I get hit from many angles, and at times…by both open palms almost at the same time. Sometimes they slap me like 4-6x machinegun slaps while I’m covered. Maybe because it’s only light sparring allowed that the K-F can risk hitting me like this as it can’t be a good idea at full power sparring. Some kicks are very high, loopy and comes out of nowhere, which does catch me off guard. My hands stay up really high vs. K-F to guard against these. The MT “cross shield” works well against straight kicks at all levels. K-F movement is very good side to side and circular, trying not to go straight back. What works vs. K-F is for me to pressure fight with my Boxing and not give K-F space to set up those wild kicks. I still get hit sometimes with a crescent kick to the head from punching range. It doesn’t hurt, and he’s not holding back as you really can’t pull the power of that kick too much while under the stress of being chased and cut off constantly almost, by me. I keep it at jab range to almost hook range almost at all times and spamming a ton of jabs (30-50 per round) while bobbing & weaving forward with hand combos. When I start clinch fighting, it’s usually very bad for the K-F. I’m not throwing hard knees, just taps…but I am clinching very hard and yanking his head (driving) to one side while in the MT Plum, then 1-2 knees to the face then driving opposite direction, knees…repeat. It’s very easy to get the full MT clinch as K-F doesn’t seem to know how to address it. They usually tell me that I’m not allowed to clinch anymore.

My main avoidance is to not get kicked at the weird angles that I’m not used to. This pressure fighting with Western Boxing works especially well against TKD where they really need space to setup their kicking combos, and most deadly is probably the spinning back kick counter which works really well against MT. Another variation of the back kick is the horse kick which I think is better. And TKD’s hand strikes are usually terrible. The same strategy also seems to work well against Karate who also likes to keep distance to setup kicks and don’t seem to like in-fighting too much.

Oddly enough, against pure Muay Thai, I would do the same to avoid trading kicks to the leg. I don’t like standing there and trade punishment until one gives like it’s usually done in MT. I stay just a little ****her though to avoid clinch fighting and med to long range knees. I don’t play the clinch game vs. other MT’s neither (only when I have to). Just spamming jabs again, looking for that opening for power punches.

Against pure Boxers though, I would stay out of punching range and just low leg kick their lead leg all day while circling. Only engage when that leg is hurt. I don’t box against pure Boxers. Although it’s very rare for me to find a pure Boxer that would agree to spar with kicks.

It seems like many of the Asian MA’s are weak in the boxing dept. And as long as a Boxer knows how to address kicks, knees and clinch…like not dipping too low to get kneed in the face and especially train to shield kicks, square out, catch, etc. I think Boxers can do extremely well against chopsocky. Once you kick a Boxer, you’re off balance and he can return with 3-4 punches before you can reset and kick him again. But Boxing alone is bad news vs. kicks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDjE4BywrE4

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what’s your point?

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^ what he said :confused:

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[QUOTE=gunbeatskroty;1255040]My base is Muay Thai + Muay Thai and BJJ if it goes to the ground. One of my interests is to spar vs. other styles to pickup different techniques that I can use vs. Muay Thai and mainstream MMA in general. Once in a while, we would get someone from other styles training in our MT class.
[/QUOTE]

Have you adopted the side thrust kick? It always baffles that Nak Muay rarely employ this powerful technique. Some Thai Boxers have picked it up and include it in their arsenal, but generally it is not taught or used in MT. (Side teep is similar, superficially, but is employing different mechanics and different intent than a thrusting side kick with the heel.)

I find it works well against Thai stylists, it is great for intercepting punches, or to use as an attack with a hand feint. One of my favorites is to feint high with a wide loopy hook, to bait the hands higher and stick the kick into the ribs or solar plexus.

I also find, in general, the fighting techniques of northern Gong Fu styles and Muay Thai to compliment each other nicely.

[QUOTE=gunbeatskroty;1255040]
When I start clinch fighting, it’s usually very bad for the K-F. I’m not throwing hard knees, just taps…but I am clinching very hard and yanking his head (driving) to one side while in the MT Plum, then 1-2 knees to the face then driving opposite direction, knees…repeat. It’s very easy to get the full MT clinch as K-F doesn’t seem to know how to address it. They usually tell me that I’m not allowed to clinch anymore.[/QUOTE]

Anyone who has never trained in the Thai clinch can be in a world of trouble, should they find themselves there. I highly recommend anyone interested in fighting, self defense, combat sports or whatever to do some training in the Thai clinch for the experience…

[QUOTE=gunbeatskroty;1255040]
Against pure Boxers though, I would stay out of punching range and just low leg kick their lead leg all day while circling. Only engage when that leg is hurt. I don’t box against pure Boxers. Although it’s very rare for me to find a pure Boxer that would agree to spar with kicks.

It seems like many of the Asian MA’s are weak in the boxing dept. And as long as a Boxer knows how to address kicks, knees and clinch…like not dipping too low to get kneed in the face and especially train to shield kicks, square out, catch, etc. I think Boxers can do extremely well against chopsocky. Once you kick a Boxer, you’re off balance and he can return with 3-4 punches before you can reset and kick him again. But Boxing alone is bad news vs. kicks:
[/QUOTE]

I agree, all Asian MA, including MT are weaker in the boxing department than boxers. :slight_smile: But it is just bad strategy to box a boxer…as you say, keep on the outside, wear him down with kicks, if he gets inside initiate the grappling game…your video is a prime example of what happens to people who have never dealt with powerful leg kicks before. I’m sure that boxer was very tough, but people who aren’t used to those types of leg kicks simply can’t handle them…

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Although I generally hate vs. threads, there are some valid points made here. I look at it from the perspective of this, all styles bring something to the table of value, and while I certainly would not call them equal, they all have something to contribute to overall spectrum.

Kung Fu- Many styles but from what you are defining more of the Northern style, high kicks, angle kicks such as crescents, hooks, ax, ect can be hard to defend if you are not familiar with them. Also, donkey kicks and stop kicks can be greatly effective.

Karate-Again not all Karate is inclusive, but most Karate is trained with the intent of using angles and strong, fast strikes to disable quickly. This is not always the end result, but Karate, such as Kyukoshin, can be trained and used effectively. (Training Methods!!)

Boxing-Simple yet effective, no other MA’st punch like boxers, because it is what their entire style is built on and all they train. Entering and exiting strategy is very good, however, due to their method of bob and weave and the amount of weight they put on the front foot of their stance sets them up to get ate alive with leg kicks and knees (as well as not knowing how to defend kicks of any kind).

Muay Thai- Been said over and over again, strong clinch, strong knees and elbows, strong power kicks. Mostly ****ty hands. Still one of the better styles IMO.

So how do you get the best of all? You train and spar from all of the above, if you train it and know how to do it, you also know how to defend it. It is also of great importance to look at training methods to improve your existing skill set. Boxing and Muay Thai added weapons to my skill set and made my existing Kung Fu better. Now if you want to argue about what it is you actually do, I don’t care about any of that garbage. As I said, all styles have worth to them, some much more than others but you can learn from all styles, as well you should.

Drinking from the same well over and over does nothing but become stagnant.

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It is ironic that you were all calling me a troll when there are posts like this.

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Yes, sounds like the experience is related to Northern styles, whereas some southern stylists tend to forget they have kicks at all.

That said, I think the larger issue from a kung fu perspective is not what hands or kicks are in your toolbox, but that the vast majority don’t drill them with simple steps like shuffle steps right, left, back forward, etc, while an opponent is doing the same. Without doing this, it’s hard to refine the move to develop real power, and especially hard to develop a sense of distance and timing, which I think is more essential to power than most other factors.

Clinch skills tend to be another issue, and mostly related to drilling without using neck control and without allowing leg manipulations, imo. Also, some groups tend to focus on keeping the action at arm bridge distance, like some wing chun styles drill chi sao, and don’t develop contact skills at the kind of close range that the clinch is. I think this is a case of mistaking a drill for the overall fighting method.

Personally, I think this all tends to be an offshoot to another problem, which is that knowing the form is for people who already know the techniques in it from drilling and practice.

Last thought (I promise), is that sometimes, people are unwilling to look at the jabs, crosses, throws, grips, etc, from their own style, and look at how other stylists have developed tactics and strategies to set them up or use them to set up other things, and apply that knowledge to their fighting. Not doing this tends to make people think of everything as a finishing move, and, combined with not drilling moves with small steps that vary distance, tends to make people who have practiced flowing within their moves to not flow between them.

This does not apply to everyone.

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Yes, sounds like the experience is related to Northern styles, whereas some southern stylists tend to forget they have kicks at all.

you’re probably not chinese and most assuredly a newbie. southern kung fu never lost their idea of kicking. they just don’t kick above the waist. don’t be fooled. then again, stop spreading mistruths on subjects you have no clue about.

but that the vast majority don’t drill them with simple steps like shuffle steps right, left, back forward, etc, while an opponent is doing the same.

Last thought (I promise), is that sometimes, people are unwilling to look at the jabs, crosses, throws, grips, etc, from their own style, and look at how other stylists have developed tactics and strategies to set them up or use them to set up other things, and apply that knowledge to their fighting

wrong again.

perfect example of YOU not knowing. tisk tisk.

that is all. thank you. nut again.

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My biggest concerns with questions like this is the presumption that a fight is going to proceed like a sanctioned fight, or duel.

If a street fight goes more than the first 1-3 strikes it will most likely go to the ground. So, to me, if a fight appears to be inevitable, strike first, strike hard, strike in the right place and get it over quickly.

About 25 years ago I was asked by a 17 year old young man what I would teach him if I could only teach him one thing that would be of benefit in most circumstances, I gave him the above advice and taught him the following simple technique.

I explained to him that at his age most fights will begin with some form of verbal and physical posturing. This will give him indications of what his opponent’s intentions are. If he is certain that a fight is inevitable, ask this opponent a question. Mostly out of context questions are best, because it throws the opponent off mentally creating what is in Japanese called “zuki”.

By watching the opponents eyes you will be able to see their mind trip up, so to speak, then while seemingly scratching your ear or the side of your head, step forward and hammer fist him on the bridge of the nose. Follow up as necessary, but many times a follow up is not necessary.

As it turned out, and unbeknownst to me, this young man had a kid at school that was bullying him. While at the County Fair a short time later, his enemy accosted him accompanied by two friends, this kid did exactly what I told him and his enemy went down, of course, and wimped out from there.

If the fight escalates to the level of ground fighting or circling, attempting to avoid Muay Thai kicks, you have already lost the advantage and you are at the mercy of luck as to who is more skilled and who has the most back up along for the ride. At which point the smart thing to do is to simply cut and run.

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[QUOTE=Snipsky;1255079]you’re probably not chinese and most assuredly a newbie. southern kung fu never lost their idea of kicking. they just don’t kick above the waist. don’t be fooled. then again, stop spreading mistruths on subjects you have no clue about.

wrong again.

perfect example of YOU not knowing. tisk tisk.

that is all. thank you. nut again.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps I didn’t present myself well. I was saying these things were common mistakes made by some stylists, not traits of the styles themselves. In fact, I would say some of those I’m familiar with because I once did them. Nor did I cease doing them based on some epiphany of something being better than kung fu, I am a kung fu stylist and defer to kung fu body mechanics in all things.

I’m not here to fight or prove some point, I have limited time to be online most days, and like to discuss kung fu, especially with some people here, so I, for my part, am willing to disagree respectfully with those willing to do so, and will obstain from conversation where it requires us yelling at each other, as I am not here for that.

If I am wrong in an assertion, I am open to discussion of it for my own improvement, and am not intent on making my judgment something you are required to hold to.

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Ah, to be fair, when I say ‘the vast majority’ do something, it is in the same sense as ‘the vast majority of boxers are not good boxers’. It is not an attack on boxing, or northern or southern styles, but just the reality, that most practitioners are not going to be the cream of the crop. Still, the statement is unnecessarily confrontational.

I am not always able to say a thing in exactly the way I mean it, I will assume others to be the same.

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[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1255083]My biggest concerns with questions like this is the presumption that a fight is going to proceed like a sanctioned fight, or duel.

If a street fight goes more than the first 1-3 strikes it will most likely go to the ground. So, to me, if a fight appears to be inevitable, strike first, strike hard, strike in the right place and get it over quickly.

About 25 years ago I was asked by a 17 year old young man what I would teach him if I could only teach him one thing that would be of benefit in most circumstances, I gave him the above advice and taught him the following simple technique.

I explained to him that at his age most fights will begin with some form of verbal and physical posturing. This will give him indications of what his opponent’s intentions are. If he is certain that a fight is inevitable, ask this opponent a question. Mostly out of context questions are best, because it throws the opponent off mentally creating what is in Japanese called “zuki”.

By watching the opponents eyes you will be able to see their mind trip up, so to speak, then while seemingly scratching your ear or the side of your head, step forward and hammer fist him on the bridge of the nose. Follow up as necessary, but many times a follow up is not necessary.

As it turned out, and unbeknownst to me, this young man had a kid at school that was bullying him. While at the County Fair a short time later, his enemy accosted him accompanied by two friends, this kid did exactly what I told him and his enemy went down, of course, and wimped out from there.

If the fight escalates to the level of ground fighting or circling, attempting to avoid Muay Thai kicks, you have already lost the advantage and you are at the mercy of luck as to who is more skilled and who has the most back up along for the ride. At which point the smart thing to do is to simply cut and run.[/QUOTE]

This is the problem with the focus on self defensive superiority or machismo, as since most of us who do any style for years do it because of no more tough guy reason than we like doing it, doing the time in any style to be able to be crazy technical in a fight is only going to happen for those of us who like it, for the vast majority, advice like the kind you gave is way more practical than to train until you can do it all without thinking, especially since technique is often a worse solution to such situations than yelling “boobies” and hitting them with a beer bottle.

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I don’t think anyone with street fighting or ring fighting experience thinks that a street fight is going to go on length wise like a prize fight does, but your body holds up to the amount of training you have done.

If a runner is training for a 5 mile marathon, he runs 10 miles.

If a swimmer competes by doing 15 laps, they practice doing 30 laps.

Better conditioning most always determines the outcome, no matter if it’s a 25 minute combat sport match or a 30 second street fight.

Most instructors who tell people this are fat f**ks who can’t walk a set of stairs with out getting winded!:rolleyes:

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Strategy and tactics often make the difference when skill and experience is lagging behind one’s opponent.

The Persians out manned and out supplied Alexander the Great in every battle, Alexander succeeded through strategy and tactics and having well disciplined troops.

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[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1255068]
So how do you get the best of all? You train and spar from all of the above, if you train it and know how to do it, you also know how to defend it. It is also of great importance to look at training methods to improve your existing skill set. Boxing and Muay Thai added weapons to my skill set and made my existing Kung Fu better. Now if you want to argue about what it is you actually do, I don’t care about any of that garbage. As I said, all styles have worth to them, some much more than others but you can learn from all styles, as well you should.

Drinking from the same well over and over does nothing but become stagnant.[/QUOTE]

This.
Game, Set and Match.

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[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1255100]I don’t think anyone with street fighting or ring fighting experience thinks that a street fight is going to go on length wise like a prize fight does, but your body holds up to the amount of training you have done.

If a runner is training for a 5 mile marathon, he runs 10 miles.

If a swimmer competes by doing 15 laps, they practice doing 30 laps.

Better conditioning most always determines the outcome, no matter if it’s a 25 minute combat sport match or a 30 second street fight.

Most instructors who tell people this are fat f**ks who can’t walk a set of stairs with out getting winded!:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Not really. I’ll share another story. This is a true story.

There was an inmate at the prison where I used to work, he was in his mid 50’s, was over weight and out of shape, but he was a boxer in his youth. He was noted for never losing a prison fight no matter the age or fitness of his opponents. These were prison streetfights, BTW, not sanctioned boxing bouts. He was also noted for knocking out his opponents.

After one particular knockout a work buddy of mine, who trains in Aikido, asked him how it was he always knocked out these younger more fit guys. The old guy said he just covered and took his hits until the punks gave him an opening, then he would hit them in the temple or on the chin, knockng them out.

Your response is the response of a novice. You may be physically skilled, or not, but you are a novice when it comes to strategy and tactics.

It doesn’t always take fitness or a wide variety of skill, it takes patience and intelligence too. This is how old guys embarrass young guys.

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I like training. I train to have decent endurance, I train to apply things I find useful or fun, I try to train to improve by seeing what better fighters than me from any style or venue. That said, that level has almost nothing to do with self defense situations. I’ve yet to see a self defense scenario that came down to endurance, in bouncing, or in my younger days where half the people I knew were dealing drugs and ending up in stupid stuff. Never once did endurance play even the slightest role.

More often than not, the person able to take a hit won, or the person who struck first, or struck first most effectively, so working technique is obviously useful. But for self defense, the main advantage for endurance is running, imo.

Training for self defense is boring and training for mostly the least qualified opponents.

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35 years ago I knew a guy who took a baseball bat to the back of his head, he turned around, took the bat away from his assailant, and taught him what’s what!

Many martial artists suffer from too much martial arts experience and not enough real life experience.

I love these guys who think that us older guys are all fat. We’ll see which ones can keep up with us when they reach our ages, LOL!

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[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1255104]Not really. I’ll share another story. This is a true story.

There was an inmate at the prison where I used to work, he was in his mid 50’s, was over weight and out of shape, but he was a boxer in his youth. He was noted for never losing a prison fight no matter the age or fitness of his opponents. These were prison streetfights, BTW, not sanctioned boxing bouts. He was also noted for knocking out his opponents.

After one particular knockout a work buddy of mine, who trains in Aikido, asked him how it was he always knocked out these younger more fit guys. The old guy said he just covered and took his hits until the punks gave him an opening, then he would hit them in the temple or on the chin, knockng them out.

Your response is the response of a novice. You may be physically skilled, or not, but you are a novice when it comes to strategy and tactics.

It doesn’t always take fitness or a wide variety of skill, it takes patience and intelligence too. This is how old guys embarrass young guys.[/QUOTE]

Cool story, Bro!!:stuck_out_tongue: I’ll stick with what I know works, thanks for caring.:wink:

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[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1255110]Cool story, Bro!!:stuck_out_tongue: I’ll stick with what I know works, thanks for caring.;)[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, so did the old boxer. That’s the way it should be, just stay open-minded to ideas you may have never considered. You never know when it might be useful. :wink: