Boxing vs. Kung-Fu and other Asian MA's

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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[QUOTE=Scott R. Brown;1255107]35 years ago I knew a guy who took a baseball bat to the back of his head, he turned around, took the bat away from his assailant, and taught him what’s what!

Many martial artists suffer from too much martial arts experience and not enough real life experience.

I love these guys who think that us older guys are all fat. We’ll see which ones can keep up with us when they reach our ages, LOL![/QUOTE]

My best friend’s father, an unathletic overweight older man, was once in a situation where a younger man came out of his car, angry over being yelled at for being a bad driver, and approached him with a baseball bat. My friend’s father said, “Son, if you need a baseball bat to beat me up, you’ve got real problems.” The guy went right back to his car.

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[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1255112]My best friend’s father, an unathletic overweight older man, was once in a situation where a younger man came out of his car, angry over being yelled at for being a bad driver, and approached him with a baseball bat. My friend’s father said, “Son, if you need a baseball bat to beat me up, you’ve got real problems.” The guy went right back to his car.[/QUOTE]

LOL, Great story! Sometimes that’s all it takes, strategy and tactics.

I taught my, somewhat wimpy, nephew to deal with his high school bullies using self-deprecating humor. It worked the first time he tried it, and no one got hurt. It also tends to make the bullies into friends, which ends the bullying.

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But if we all know conflict management, we lose any hope of heroic action fights involving butterfly knives!

At least we still have the internet.

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[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1255115]But if we all know conflict management, we lose any hope of heroic action fights involving butterfly knives!

At least we still have the internet.[/QUOTE]

And computer games, LOL!

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[QUOTE=Snipsky;1255043]what’s your point?[/QUOTE] Excellent OP , gunbeat, great perspective, I think we can all agree from a non kungfu practitioner against kungfu fighters.
sounds about right although some TCMA styles are more deceptive than others.

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[QUOTE=Snipsky;1255043]what’s your point?[/QUOTE]

We going to spar girl? I’m still waiting.

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Speaking of the power of kung fu kicks mentioned by the OP, that they weren’t held back(so probably things like crescents, round kicks), I’ve found that what usually limits the power is striking with the wrong surface. People tend to use the length of the sole of the foot on certain kicks that actually use the heel. And certain kicks are really meant for in close against targets on or below the knee, and often assume that you’ve forced the opponent’s weight on that knee.

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He gone bye bye.:slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=PalmStriker;1255127]He gone bye bye.:)[/QUOTE]

Who has? Snipsky?

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[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1255105]I like training. I train to have decent endurance, I train to apply things I find useful or fun, I try to train to improve by seeing what better fighters than me from any style or venue. That said, that level has almost nothing to do with self defense situations. I’ve yet to see a self defense scenario that came down to endurance, in bouncing, or in my younger days where half the people I knew were dealing drugs and ending up in stupid stuff. Never once did endurance play even the slightest role.

More often than not, the person able to take a hit won, or the person who struck first, or struck first most effectively, so working technique is obviously useful. But for self defense, the main advantage for endurance is running, imo.

Training for self defense is boring and training for mostly the least qualified opponents.[/QUOTE]

So what your saying is that the person who does not train hard, spar hard for multiple rounds, strength train, ect. it going to be better equipped to take a hit, strike first, and strike most effectively as opposed to someone who trains all these things on a regular basis:confused:

Intelligence and more so Experience is what will trump youth and strength. That being said, the person who is intelligent, has experience, and still trains at a high level is where it is. No substitution for proper training, none.

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[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1255056]Have you adopted the side thrust kick? It always baffles that Nak Muay rarely employ this powerful technique. Some Thai Boxers have picked it up and include it in their arsenal, but generally it is not taught or used in MT. (Side teep is similar, superficially, but is employing different mechanics and different intent than a thrusting side kick with the heel.) [/QUOTE]

Is this kind of like a sidekick…where you fake a Teep/front-kick and turn it into a Sidekick? If yes, then this does work well vs. MT from my experience. It’s very annoying. Only downside is that my nuts are wide open for accidents when they throw inside leg kicks. The general Sidekick also works well vs. MT, very annoying but both doesn’t seem to do much damage usually. I’ve been Sidekick to the throat a few times, and that hurts but didn’t stop the fight. This is why I pressure fight with hands a lot vs. Karatekas, K-F, etc. because they like to keep distance w/sidekicks.

I also find, in general, the fighting techniques of northern Gong Fu styles and Muay Thai to compliment each other nicely.

What’s Northern Gong Fu like? I’ve sparred mostly with these guys: http://www.dennisbrownshaolin.com/

your video is a prime example of what happens to people who have never dealt with powerful leg kicks before. I’m sure that boxer was very tough, but people who aren’t used to those types of leg kicks simply can’t handle them…

The Black dude (Boxer), is Arthur Williams (or something)…and held 2 Boxing world titles and had a high win/KO record too. He was a little out of his prime in that video…but many Boxers seems to be very arrogant and thinks that they can beat up Kickers easily w/o needing to train how to address kicks. Although they only enter K-1 when they’re out of their prime, can no longer get fights in Boxing and mostly, need the money. And K-1 loves bringing them in b/c it’s a spectacle and sells tickets.

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[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1255129]So what your saying is that the person who does not train hard, spar hard for multiple rounds, strength train, ect. it going to be better equipped to take a hit, strike first, and strike most effectively as opposed to someone who trains all these things on a regular basis:confused:[/quote]

No, I wasn’t saying that. I’m saying in most situations, endurance never plays a role. I’m not arguing against endurance training, just saying that the truth is, I don’t do it for self defense because, aside from running, I’ve really never seen any evidence that it is a major factor in the vast majority of self defense situations. I’m not arguing that the street is this uber deadly thing, it’s a stupid, utterly ridiculous type of environment, and for me, I don’t focus my training on it.

However, I will disagree on one aspect you brought up. The one most capable to hit first is the one who ambushes, and no one else, in the most worrisome self defense situations. Everything else is bumfights footage, I don’t know a single person over 35 who isn’t working security who ever gets in a chest to chest argument where a punch might get thrown, and this suggests to me that attitude and judgment trump training in reality.

That said, I like training, so I train.

Intelligence and more so Experience is what will trump youth and strength. That being said, the person who is intelligent, has experience, and still trains at a high level is where it is. No substitution for proper training, none.

I agree on experience(vs. mere age).

I think that the ambusher always has the advantage, regardless of training, if training is the first line of defense. Only after that point does anything else matter.

That said, training is awesome fun. If I want to feel uber deadly, I make sure I have a sharp knife, but I don’t see how endurance comes into play in most street fights, so I’m not training endurance because of street fights. If I were going to train for street fights, I would train knife and gun skills over strength and endurance training. If that were my logic.

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[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1255068] Kung Fu- Many styles but from what you are defining more of the Northern style, high kicks, angle kicks such as crescents, hooks, ax, ect can be hard to defend if you are not familiar with them. Also, donkey kicks and stop kicks can be greatly effective. [/QUOTE]

Is it what these guys are or closely a resemblance to Northern K-F? http://www.dennisbrownshaolin.com/

This “donkey kick”, is it turning 180 deg and kicking straight with the rear heel up and toes pointed down targeting the body…w/o looking at the target? TKD calls this the Ox Kick or something. I like this kick too… and get the most power out of such kicks. A little different than the spinning back kick.

Karate-Again not all Karate is inclusive, but most Karate is trained with the intent of using angles and strong, fast strikes to disable quickly. This is not always the end result, but Karate, such as Kyukoshin, can be trained and used effectively. (Training Methods!!)

As I said, all styles have worth to them, some much more than others but you can learn from all styles, as well you should.

This is it right here.

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Donkey kicks are something I “learned” long ago, but haven’t messed with incorporating into fighting much. Sounds like fun.

Stop kicks are a wonderful thing.

Never cared for hook kicks.

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[QUOTE=gunbeatskroty;1255130]Is this kind of like a sidekick…where you fake a Teep/front-kick and turn it into a Sidekick? If yes, then this does work well vs. MT from my experience. It’s very annoying. Only downside is that my nuts are wide open for accidents when they throw inside leg kicks. The general Sidekick also works well vs. MT, very annoying but both doesn’t seem to do much damage usually. I’ve been Sidekick to the throat a few times, and that hurts but didn’t stop the fight. This is why I pressure fight with hands a lot vs. Karatekas, K-F, etc. because they like to keep distance w/sidekicks.
[/QUOTE]

The kick I think your referring to, in MT, I call a side teep…it is very similar to the thrusting sidekick, except your usually using the ball of the foot and more of a pushing motion…it’s a sneaky technique and great for creating distance, (like a regular teep) but it usually doesn’t cause much damage, mostly throws the opponent back…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7A96CgJ4GQ

This technique is what I call a “snapping” side kick. I’ll just say it works for some people and it is used for a different strategy than what I prefer…I think this is the kick most folks are referring to when they complain about a lack of power…some guys are tough with it and make it work…IME I prefer a different method…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6qhGmU6hb4

The method above is what I call “thrusting” side kick. They look very similar superficially but employ completely different mechanics. (Not unlike comparing a TKD roundhouse to a MT roundhouse.)

At some points he talks about using it in a “jab like” fashion where it would be kind of like a variation on a teep, but he also mentions the “stomping” motion that this kick gets its’ power from..this is the way I like to use it. When used like a sideways stomp, with the heel of the foot, (as opposed to the blade, ball, or flat footed,) it is a very strong kick with real stopping/damaging power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exbkTtKR8ZM

This is a MT guy using the thrusting style sidekick, he’s preferring a different setup for the same technique, but of course there are lots of ways to use it…

[QUOTE=gunbeatskroty;1255130]
What’s Northern Gong Fu like?
[/QUOTE]

There are lots of different northern styles, they tend to be characterized by long range techniques and aggressive, powerful attacks, also the variety of kicks you were mentioning…of course the effectiveness will always come down to the practicality of the students training…I’m sure some disagree with me, but I see a lot of elements of traditional northern Gong Fu in sanda/sanshou style training…

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[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1255075] Also, some groups tend to focus on keeping the action at arm bridge distance, like some wing chun styles drill chi sao, and don’t develop contact skills at the kind of close range that the clinch is. I think this is a case of mistaking a drill for the overall fighting method. [/QUOTE]

Wing Chun is a style that I’d like to spar against more. Not too many around here that’s relatively close by. I used to train some sticky-hands with a friend who has 5 years of WC.

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[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1255150]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6qhGmU6hb4

The method above is what I call “thrusting” side kick. They look very similar superficially but employ completely different mechanics. (Not unlike comparing a TKD roundhouse to a MT roundhouse.) [/QUOTE]

Ok, now I see. It is like you say, the MT rear Teep… where there’s more effort on pulling the leg back and up rather than lazily letting it drop back down to avoid getting caught.

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[QUOTE=gunbeatskroty;1255153]Ok, now I see. It is like you say, the MT rear Teep… where there’s more effort on pulling the leg back and up rather than lazily letting it drop back down to avoid getting caught.[/QUOTE]

Yes, sanshou guys do a lot of leg catching, so the retraction is very important if the kick misses or grazes…I think it’s not so crucial when it lands solid, however…

The way I was taught the teep, I was told that either the ball of the foot, or the heel was correct…but we used the ball at least 90% of the time, because of the reach advantage…I heard someone explain it as, “the ball of the foot creates distance, the heel causes damage.” Of course that’s a generalization, but I think it’s a pretty good guide for strategy…

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[QUOTE=Iron_Eagle_76;1255100]I don’t think anyone with street fighting or ring fighting experience thinks that a street fight is going to go on length wise like a prize fight does, but your body holds up to the amount of training you have done.
[/QUOTE]

Scotty Brown is an old guy who trains in the art of pretend-death strikes. He’s never fought in the ring vs. equally trained opponents before…which for him, would be a portly female. He’s never even sparred for full knockouts to realize that the reason ring fights rarely ends in 2-3 seconds or 2-3 strikes is because the other person is EQUALLY TRAINED & CONDITIONED …and you can’t just ninja strike him like in the movies and expects him to go down.

Suckerpunching some loudmouth drunk in the street is easy. Trained fighters don’t need to suckerpunch. If it’s 1 on 1, I would never hit first and risk going to jail, get sued and risk a felony conviction on my permanent record. I’m good and confident enough let the other guy go first. But usually I’d walk away. I already know that I can beat up most untrained toughguys…as many walk into our gym for the trial class every week and I have to teach them. Only people like Scottie, who never fought before…thinks it’s always a life or death, Mad Max Thunderdome match for everything. This is very common among Krav Maga people and the general Women Self Defense/Anti-Rape people. They think chops to the throat or nuts ends it all, yet they’ve never tried out their BS training by letting someone really try to knock them the F out. I can offer this service for free btw.

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My cat wants to hump you, you’re so hot.