[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014407][QUOTE=chusauli;1014404]
Would you say ground reaction force is a better term to discribe hua jing and An jing?[/QUOTE]
No. That is completely incorrect.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1014364]The fact is, those are completely irrelevant to the original analogy of flexibility and movement.
Mechanical resonance plays no role in body mechanics and efficiency of human performance.[/QUOTE]
Once again the analogy wasn’t of flexibility and movement, it was about there being <cliche>many ways to skin a cat </cliche>
[QUOTE=chusauli;1014409][QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014407]
No. That is completely incorrect.[/QUOTE]
How would you discribe the way force is generated in hua jing and An jing bio mechanically?
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014454][QUOTE=chusauli;1014409]
How would you discribe the way force is generated in hua jing and An jing bio mechanically?[/QUOTE]
I have not dodged your questions. I have completely answered them, but you have not comprehended my answers.
An Jing means you hide your obvious, make it subtle.
Hua Jing is using neutralization of energy. Where did I put the load? Where can I load so I don’t overload to restrict or slow me? How much control do I need? It is about using just enough, not go overboard all out, all of the time.
Giving you lots of love is the best thing.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1014403]
LOL @ six directional force vectors, mechanical resonance, and Fajing… welcome to the zone of the theoretical non-fighter ™.[/QUOTE]
originally posted by hendrik
In WCK, one was taught to sense and Doing Mun Sau not Bai Jong, that is because In WCK, the WCner is suppose to ask and sense and observe and adapt to what is going on instead of throwing action or words out senseless. That is the key of Comes accept, Goes return…etc.
See, these are not Kiu Sau or Baijong stuffs. Different concept.
What were you asking and what did you sense when you ended up red faced and on your @ss. Your problem is not that you end up on your @ss but that for all your talk you could not flow not even like that of a beginning judo student when the contact that put you down. hendriks pancake theories are not equal to those of WCK.
originally posted by kung fu fighter
I am familar with these strategies, I guess What I am asking is how do you personnally apply them?
LOL That is rich
Giving you lots of love is the best thing.
OK, but leave all that hip humping stuff out of it. That would definitely NOT be the best thing. Ewww!
Send you lot of love.
[QUOTE=canglong;1014467]What were you asking and what did you sense when you ended up red faced and on your @ss. Your problem is not that you end up on your @ss but that for all your talk you could not flow not even like that of a beginning judo student when the contact that put you down. hendriks pancake theories are not equal to those of WCK.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=chusauli;1014345]
Let’s not take this the wrong way, but really, you have to look at it from an observer’s point of view… Yes, you have both SNT and SLT. And you have a similar TWC Entry technique, and you have amazingly similar forms to TWC like the ASLT, CK, and Jong. And you have the same Ying, Yi, Lei, Faht characters as Weng Chun, and similar 6.5 points and 18 Kiu Sao. You also have a computer generated photo of your Si Gung, and a school unwilling to show people your “secrets”…its no wonder why people get the impression that HFY is well, fishy…then you go and say, “Its our perogative to keep our secrets!” You create your karma with your actions. I am in no way attacking HFY now. Personally, I really like the summary of the Sup Ming Dim. I think it is quite well packaged.
[/QUOTE]
Robert,
This photo/secrecy issue you seem to have is just another smokescreen so you dont have to really answer Duendes questions and comments. Youve been bringing it up time and time again, so lets put this to rest once and for all.
Weve all been over the Hung Muhn history. If you still want to read more about it, Google is your best friend. Im not going to waste time saying the same things over again. However, one point you are missing is theres a big difference between secrecy and privacy. How about this, you tell all of us what your social security number is. Go on, go ahead. Unless, of course, you are being SECRETIVE about it. Or maybe, just maybe, things like your social security number are things you want to keep private. Same deal as some of the details of the HFY or TWC or any other kung fu lineages. Some people are just passing through. It is impossible to know if they are trustworthy or not. If you stand out on a street corner all day handing out pieces of paper with your bank account info on it, how long until someone takes all your money? Not long I’ll bet. Maybe thats why you had so many issues with some of your past Sifus. Lee Moy Shan and Moy Yat wouldnt hand out things to you right away so you got mad and ran around telling everyone that they were greedy and talking sh!t about them for a long time. Then, you might understand why Randy Williams also has problems with you.
As for the photo thing, what does that have to do with you as an outsider? Since you’re also the same person who copied our HFY’s material for your own article without giving credit back to the source. The fact is you’re a dishonest man, and lack character. That’s why no one wants to share anything with you. Many genuine people have visited our HFY school. Even Sandman, THE MODERATOR OF THIS FORUM visited HQ and has seen the photo in person. The photo was the personal property of Nancy Sung which was given to our GM in the 1980s, and even then it was very old and not in the best condition. Therefore students Matt Kwan and Mr. Yohan were requested by the MKF editor to touch up the photo and enhance the color so that it could be published in MKF. Once again, what does this have to do with is a character like you spreading false rumors, cutting down and insulting people? You’ve been doing this for so long. Is that good enough, or do you get some sort of pleasure out of being a gossip queen???
However, one point you are missing is there’s a big difference between secrecy and privacy.
Not really. Dictionary.com:
se·cre·cy /sikrsi/ Show Spelled[see-kruh-see] Show IPA
–noun,plural-cies for 2, 3.
1.the state or condition of being secret, hidden, or concealed: a meeting held in secrecy.
2.privacy; retirement; seclusion.
3.ability to keep a secret.
4.the habit or characteristic of being secretive; reticence.
pri·va·cy /pravsi; Brit. also prvsi/ Show Spelled[prahy-vuh-see; Brit. also priv-uh-see] Show IPA
–noun,plural-cies.
1.the state of being private; retirement or seclusion.
2.the state of being free from intrusion or disturbance in one’s private life or affairs: the right to privacy.
3.secrecy.
4.Archaic. a private place.
A great deal of overlap IMO, and if there is a distinction your post did not explain it.
A bit pedantic I know, but I’m kinda p1ssed at all you guys (including Robert Chu) for dredging all this crap up again.
[QUOTE=anerlich;1014474]Not really. Dictionary.com:
se·cre·cy /sikrsi/ Show Spelled[see-kruh-see] Show IPA
noun,plural-cies for 2, 3.
1.the state or condition of being secret, hidden, or concealed: a meeting held in secrecy.
2.privacy; retirement; seclusion.
3.ability to keep a secret.
4.the habit or characteristic of being secretive; reticence.
pri·va·cy /pravsi; Brit. also prvsi/ Show Spelled[prahy-vuh-see; Brit. also priv-uh-see] Show IPA
noun,plural-cies.
1.the state of being private; retirement or seclusion.
2.the state of being free from intrusion or disturbance in one’s private life or affairs: the right to privacy.
3.secrecy.
4.Archaic. a private place.
A great deal of overlap IMO, and if there is a distinction your post did not explain it.
A bit pedantic I know, but I’m kinda p1ssed at all you guys (including Robert Chu) for dredging all this crap up again.
[/QUOTE]
LOL!!
Can’t say I blame you.
For my part, I sincerely apologize to everyone here on the board.
In truth, I thought there was a chance in these recent dialogs, to open discussion and put some of these long-standing issues to bed.
It may seem over-optimistic, but heck… that’s my nature I guess.
For anyone that’s truly interested… I would like to answer some of Robert’s statements here, and try my best to nurture positive conversation.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1014345]Don’t take too much stock in what I know or don’t know…you feel the need to discredit me, yet I have said nothing to disparage you. As a student, it is better that I take the attitude of knowing nothing, so I may receive teaching.[/QUOTE]
This is good advice for everyone. We should all empty our cups a bit more when sharing and discussing WCK with others.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1014345]
I am not criticizing them at all. I agree 100% with them. And they are not that much different from TWC’s 5 concepts or other WCK systems. I do not understand why you have to position it as such. In fact, all WCK works on those five ideas, regardless of what you call them.
For example, in Yip Man WCK, we speak of:
- Chiu Mien Dui Ying
- Bik Ma Yap Mun
- Por Jung
- Juie Ying
- Wui San or Wui Jung Sien
WCK is WCK.
[/QUOTE]
Glad to hear it.
However, what I’m trying to convey to you here is that how we express these concepts, via logic flow and consistent body karma though-out is where our differences lay.
So when you say we are all WCK. Yes, I agree with you. But I also understand our distinct differences, and moreover… see the importance of preserving and maintaining the integrity of the art I personally study (HFY).
I have witnessed you write numerous times about personal interpretation and expression in WCK. In the HFY system, there is no room for such things, as they inevitably lead to distortion and modifications of our HFYWC core principles.
“Any individual interpretations or attempts to combine the system with other styles will deviate from these concepts and, therefore, render the system ineffective.”
Complete Wing Chun pg 88, Hung Seun Wing Chun Kuen section, discussing the importance of understanding the system concepts and principles.
Remember that one??
So whether you mean to or not. When you brush us off time and time again as being TWC (Which is of course a great and respected system of it’s own), it is in fact highly insulting. Not because we have anything against TWC, but because it negates so much that is HFY.
I am not trying to put any other system down here. I come to this board to share and grow my own understandings. But I am compelled to clarify misunderstandings and misrepresentations when I see them.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1014345]
Forgive me Alex, but perhaps you are reading something different. I completely respect GG and HFY. I fully expect him to have high knowledge since he has family training in the Fu Zhen Xiong system and his father is known in those circles.
Some of your HFY bretheren have displayed complete disrespect to me. I have been very patient. But I appreciate your sect’s loyalty. I also do not look at these as personal attacks, these are just spirited discussions.
[/QUOTE]
Yeah… I’m not into snide comments or inflammatory remarks from either side. I too believe that all of us here are not so different. People are people. We should all step back and just appreciate this great gift that we have all been exposed to, and not get caught up in silly internet egotism.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1014345]
I see the rudeness, yelling, anger and swearing as a weak man’s imitation of strength. Also, in training martial arts, you are given a responsibility. Shouldn’t it reflect you are mature enough to handle that responsibility? I don’t want to have to quote Spiderman to you…
[/QUOTE]
Agreed,
And I know Spiderman very well too, although I was more of a Green Lantern space freak. 
[QUOTE=chusauli;1014345]
Let’s not take this the wrong way, but really, you have to look at it from an observer’s point of view… Yes, you have both SNT and SLT. And you have a similar TWC Entry technique, and you have amazingly similar forms to TWC like the ASLT, CK, and Jong. And you have the same Ying, Yi, Lei, Faht characters as Weng Chun, and similar 6.5 points and 18 Kiu Sao. You also have a computer generated photo of your Si Gung, and a school unwilling to show people your “secrets”…its no wonder why people get the impression that HFY is well, fishy…then you go and say, “Its our perogative to keep our secrets!” You create your karma with your actions. I am in no way attacking HFY now. Personally, I really like the summary of the Sup Ming Dim. I think it is quite well packaged.
[/QUOTE]
First off, let’s not confuse Chi Sim’s Tin Yan Dei expression or Kiu Sau understandings for HFY’s. They are not the same.
Chi Sim’s TYD is derrived from Animal Kung Fu. Just look at their body mechanics, and you’ll see leaning postures, bending over, and jumping around. Nothing against them, but this all goes against the WC principles of economy of motion and self-centerline.
HFY TYD is about power generation, body alignment, targeting, leverage, and gravity control WITHIN the WCK core principles and concepts. HFY and Chi Sim TYD may overlap in some ways on a philosophical level, but in actual physical expression.. They are very different.
In regards to Kiu Sau.. again, their 18-point Kiu Sau such as “cat washes face” uses classical Animal Kung Fu physical expression. Bending and dropping down, extending limbs, 3-gate side/body etc… Which are complete no no’s in HFY as they exemplify what we call long arm/short arm. Instead, our HFY Sei Buhn Dim Kiu Sau again reflects WCK core concepts and principles, and is an integral to our Chi Sau. Our Kiu Sau technology, has it’s own facings, body karma, and timeframe usages that are quite different than Tan Bong Fook Chi Sau.
As for Sup Ming Dim. It is not a package at all. It is a simple refined outline of our HFYWCK reference points. Simplicity is just another example of “economy of motion”. A trait we should all strive for both inside and outside of our Kung Fu. Btw… did you notice the logic flow once again?
In truth, Sup Ming Dim is only the very beginning of understanding HFY structural energy.
As for fishy things and secrets… We have an open door. Everyone is invited to come visit. We do not do video’s and such online, because we do not feel that they adequately teach KF and instead lead to personal interpretations and distortions of knowledge. Which as I explained earlier, is against our fundamental beliefs.
That’s all there is to it.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1014345]
Alex, 6 vector forces is an old, old term. You can see them in old legitimate martial arts like Zi Men, Tai Zu, Shaolin, etc. This is nothing new. What’s new are your terms.
[/QUOTE]
Let’s not get too caught up in terms. As this is where our some of our misconnect lie.
I never questioned 6 vector forces legitimacy. Only offered my own understanding on the subject matter.
Regardless, our understanding of energy is also nothing new. Unless you consider 5 elements concepts as being new. But as you are an acupuncturist.. I highly doubt it. 
[QUOTE=chusauli;1014345]
What is a true system, what is a false system? A system is just a body of knowledge to take you from ignorance to understanding. There is a tendency to a lot of HFYisms or jargon.
[/QUOTE]
When I refer to system, I am using it the manner of say the nervous system, or other fractals. A true system is composed of many many parts. But each part in itself, reflects the whole. This is the nature of organicism. Logic flow throughout is obviously an inherent attribute.
I personally believe man kinds greatest achievements have this organic quality.
This is what “everlasting springtime” means to me. No matter where you look… be it inside or outside the art of WCK. You will always find new ways to apply what we have learned in WCK.
That’s it for me…
Peace out.
thanks for the reply Robert,
[QUOTE=chusauli;1014455]An Jing means you hide your obvious, make it subtle. [/QUOTE]
how do you hide your obvious and make it subtle?
Since I started this topic, I suggest to focus on this topic instead doing personal attack or promoting one’s lineage …ect.
Start your own topic if you like to share you story or promote/ advertise your style’s superiority /legitimate…etc which got nothing to do with this topic of structure.
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014485]thanks for the reply Robert,
how do you hide your obvious and make it subtle?[/QUOTE]
KFF,
I have been following your posts of questions for a while. My suggestion is you go Baisi with some one who knows these stuffs.
you need the true basic training or else you will not be able to comprehend what is going on.
I keep telling you, the so called link to ground or rooting.. are just a smaller smaller elements in the real deal. Without the basic training, dont even get near to understand Ming Jing, An Jing, Hua JIng, fajing… because it involve experience of how to use one’s mind, body,…etc.
Look at it just a minute ago you are asking all the questions about hip. and then you make claim on you can do Hua jing too. and then you like to know if grounding /rooting is a better description to Hua Jing…etc. Read your posts.
from the way you ask question, it indicates you are trying to make equvalen everything here to what you think you know. Well, the fact is you cant do that because these are things you dont have experience and dont know.
How can Robert and me helping you if you keep on this type of behaviour of not accepting what you dont know but merry go round on trying to think grounding is hua jing…etc which is totally off the mark?
and also, how can you learn these stuffs over eternet? you cant. you simply need a sifu who know what it is. and also you might need to pay big money for it if you want it. As both Robert and me have done both on Baisi and pay big money for it.
These are reality you might not like. but you are wasting time in the previous few posts. also no one is obligate to teach you since it is already an act of kindness trying to help you. not to tell you it is impossible for your to learn things this way, how many years have you trying to get information from me about the Yik Kam snake technology…etc? take a look at your previous post, those who knows what I am talking about know I have told you a great deal in details but you still dont get it. why? because you dont have the proper basic in this field. and blocking yourself out with your own logic.
But you got to know what is the proper way to return the kindness. that is go learn with a true sifu. otherwise both Robert and I are wasting our time trying to help you.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1014515]Since I started this topic, I suggest to focus on this topic instead doing personal attack or promoting one’s lineage …ect.
Start your own topic if you like to share you story or promote/ advertise your style’s superiority /legitimate…etc which got nothing to do with this topic of structure.[/QUOTE]
Actually, Alex’s post talks about structure throughout! Things like Tin Yan Dei and sup ming dim are all about structure! As did many other posts you wouldn’t comment on. Maybe you only want to discuss with a select few people, and ignore the rest, which is pretty evident thru this thread? Perhaps you just don’t like views that differ from your own? I think you shouldn’t have such thin skin for a ‘kung fu man’.
Maybe it would be better if you just start your own forum and only allow access to those you deem worthy of discussion. Or allow just you alone on that forum so your views are never questioned, would that work for you? 
[QUOTE=duende;1014484]LOL!!
Can’t say I blame you.
For my part, I sincerely apologize to everyone here on the board.
In truth, I thought there was a chance in these recent dialogs, to open discussion and put some of these long-standing issues to bed.
It may seem over-optimistic, but heck… that’s my nature I guess.
For anyone that’s truly interested… I would like to answer some of Robert’s statements here, and try my best to nurture positive conversation.[/QUOTE]
I think there is a positive discussion. I admire you, Alex. You have shared more insights rather than attacking. I respect you highly.
I also apologize to the board here, if this doesn’t interest you, ignore it.
[QUOTE=duende;1014484]This is good advice for everyone. We should all empty our cups a bit more when sharing and discussing WCK with others.[/QUOTE]
Amen.
[QUOTE=duende;1014484]Glad to hear it.
However, what I’m trying to convey to you here is that how we express these concepts, via logic flow and consistent body karma though-out is where our differences lay.
So when you say we are all WCK. Yes, I agree with you. But I also understand our distinct differences, and moreover… see the importance of preserving and maintaining the integrity of the art I personally study (HFY).
I have witnessed you write numerous times about personal interpretation and expression in WCK. In the HFY system, there is no room for such things, as they inevitably lead to distortion and modifications of our HFYWC core principles.[/QUOTE]
Everyone has a personal interpretation, regardless of system. You may have the same root, but each of you sees things differently. For example, Chan only has one truth, but so many interpretations. Men’s minds are fast or slow, sudden or gradual.
You do that to pass on your legacy, that is an important job for you and the HFY family.
[QUOTE=duende;1014484]“Any individual interpretations or attempts to combine the system with other styles will deviate from these concepts and, therefore, render the system ineffective.”
Complete Wing Chun pg 88, Hung Seun Wing Chun Kuen section, discussing the importance of understanding the system concepts and principles.
Remember that one??[/QUOTE]
Sure, but I also know this - in the classical arts, one portion of the art contains the information of the whole organism. For example, Ba Gua can be embodied in the single palm change. Or Xing Yi’s Pi Quan can represent all five fists in a way. A “true” teaching has all of it in one part.
[QUOTE=duende;1014484]So whether you mean to or not. When you brush us off time and time again as being TWC (Which is of course a great and respected system of it’s own), it is in fact highly insulting. Not because we have anything against TWC, but because it negates so much that is HFY.
I am not trying to put any other system down here. I come to this board to share and grow my own understandings. But I am compelled to clarify misunderstandings and misrepresentations when I see them.[/QUOTE]
Fine, but this is a WCK discussion board, not a HFY discussion board.
I did not say you were TWC, but reminded me of it. You are HFY, and the closest thing it reminds me of is TWC. It should not be an insult, TWC is a great art, a beautiful form of WCK. You cannot deny there are great similarities. And of course, you have differences.
[QUOTE=duende;1014484]Yeah… I’m not into snide comments or inflammatory remarks from either side. I too believe that all of us here are not so different. People are people. We should all step back and just appreciate this great gift that we have all been exposed to, and not get caught up in silly internet egotism. [/QUOTE]
Good. All I have done is speak with you openly. I’m sure if you took the time to speak with me in person or on the phone, you know I am not unreasonable.
[QUOTE=duende;1014484]Agreed,
And I know Spiderman very well too, although I was more of a Green Lantern space freak. [/QUOTE]
I like Hal Jordan and the GL Corps as well!
[QUOTE=duende;1014484]First off, let’s not confuse Chi Sim’s Tin Yan Dei expression or Kiu Sau understandings for HFY’s. They are not the same.
Chi Sim’s TYD is derrived from Animal Kung Fu. Just look at their body mechanics, and you’ll see leaning postures, bending over, and jumping around. Nothing against them, but this all goes against the WC principles of economy of motion and self-centerline.
HFY TYD is about power generation, body alignment, targeting, leverage, and gravity control WITHIN the WCK core principles and concepts. HFY and Chi Sim TYD may overlap in some ways on a philosophical level, but in actual physical expression.. They are very different.
In regards to Kiu Sau.. again, their 18-point Kiu Sau such as “cat washes face” uses classical Animal Kung Fu physical expression. Bending and dropping down, extending limbs, 3-gate side/body etc… Which are complete no no’s in HFY as they exemplify what we call long arm/short arm. Instead, our HFY Sei Buhn Dim Kiu Sau again reflects WCK core concepts and principles, and is an integral to our Chi Sau. Our Kiu Sau technology, has it’s own facings, body karma, and timeframe usages that are quite different than Tan Bong Fook Chi Sau. [/QUOTE]
I will let the Weng Chun people speak for themselves.
[QUOTE=duende;1014484]As for Sup Ming Dim. It is not a package at all. It is a simple refined outline of our HFYWCK reference points. Simplicity is just another example of “economy of motion”. A trait we should all strive for both inside and outside of our Kung Fu. Btw… did you notice the logic flow once again?
In truth, Sup Ming Dim is only the very beginning of understanding HFY structural energy. [/QUOTE]
Pamela Anderson is a nice package. So is Nicole Scherzinger. Get it? Maybe you’re not from NYC… LOL!
[QUOTE=duende;1014484]As for fishy things and secrets… We have an open door. Everyone is invited to come visit. We do not do video’s and such online, because we do not feel that they adequately teach KF and instead lead to personal interpretations and distortions of knowledge. Which as I explained earlier, is against our fundamental beliefs.
That’s all there is to it.[/QUOTE]
Yes, “Hou Chuen San Sao” and all that - it can be interpreted as overly secretive. Again, being like this, you perpetuate part of your own karma. You have to take this as your responsibility.
[QUOTE=duende;1014484]Let’s not get too caught up in terms. As this is where our some of our misconnect lie.
I never questioned 6 vector forces legitimacy. Only offered my own understanding on the subject matter.
Regardless, our understanding of energy is also nothing new. Unless you consider 5 elements concepts as being new. But as you are an acupuncturist.. I highly doubt it. :)[/QUOTE]
Ok.
[QUOTE=duende;1014484]When I refer to system, I am using it the manner of say the nervous system, or other fractals. A true system is composed of many many parts. But each part in itself, reflects the whole. This is the nature of organicism. Logic flow throughout is obviously an inherent attribute.
I personally believe man kinds greatest achievements have this organic quality.
This is what “everlasting springtime” means to me. No matter where you look… be it inside or outside the art of WCK. You will always find new ways to apply what we have learned in WCK.
That’s it for me…
Peace out.[/QUOTE]
We have the same idea for “Praise of Spring”, or “Perpetual Spring”. If we do not have this, we have not attained.
[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014485]thanks for the reply Robert,
how do you hide your obvious and make it subtle?[/QUOTE]
<Smack!>
The sound of one hand clapping …
Any one here want to take a stab at it and help KFF?
Alex?
Anyone else?
[QUOTE=chusauli;1014738]<Smack!>
The sound of one hand clapping …
Any one here want to take a stab at it and help KFF?
Alex?
Anyone else?[/QUOTE]Well, I probably don’t have the right idea of “An Jing”, but for me, taking something obvious and making it suble as far as martial arts practice is concerned is: start your practice with large movements/obvious force and then through practice and refinement make the motions smaller to achieve the same effect.
I say “motions” but really this is a combination of movement, force (jing), range, timing. Going from “more than enough” to “just enough” to achieve the desired effect.
[QUOTE=CFT;1014805]for me, taking something obvious and making it suble as far as martial arts practice is concerned is: start your practice with large movements/obvious force and then through practice and refinement make the motions smaller to achieve the same effect.
I say “motions” but really this is a combination of movement, force (jing), range, timing. Going from “more than enough” to “just enough” to achieve the desired effect.[/QUOTE]
I agree! that’s also what I assumed An jing is! Small movement is better than big movement, no movement is better than small movement:)
Not only conservation of motion and energy but getting the opponent into a position where he is most vulnerable helps..