Body structure time to go to another level

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
81

[QUOTE=chusauli;1014149]
If you know what I am saying, and can do what I am saying, then you have already attained. And you know my level, and can do my level. If this is the case, then 5 battle arrays is not a big deal.

If you ridicule and say this is all BS, then you have no inkling.[/QUOTE]

The BS is the strawman argument being made here over and over again.

No one is saying structure is fixed, or that it is not dynamic.

And if as you say, our 5-battle arrays are not a big deal… then why do you feel the need to criticize them?

Especially considering the fact, that you admittedly are not an expert in their regard.

Again, why is there such a need to put others knowledge down to promote you’re own?

[QUOTE=chusauli;1014149]
If you are familiar, you must only know the movement of the pelvis is only at the Ming Jing stage, otherwise you know Hendrik can Hua Jing, and it looks like this shape or that shape, accordingly to the vector force the opponent gives him. So dealing with vector force, when you have the idea, has no shape. As I said, you do not overload your frame, (hence “collapsing structure”), but can relax the muscles so that the vector force is “conducted” along the frame. This way, you can slow the opponent, uproot them, throw them at will, push a little to get their reaction, then strike them as you like. This is all embodied in the WCK Kuit, “Kuen Yau Sum Faat”.

I can tell you all the words, but if you cannot do this, it is meaningless.

Also, if you have never seen it, it is meaningless. [/QUOTE]

Why would anyone practicing WC disagree with what you have written above? What you have written is WCK.

The disagreement is with the simple-minded criticism and intentional misrepresentation of Bai Jong and Kiu Sau. (And yes Hendrick, we even have Half Point Kiu Sau :stuck_out_tongue: Hahaha)

The truth of the matter is that there are key fundamental ways of dealing with an opponent’s oncoming energy.

It appears Hendrick, and now you are calling them 6 vector forces. From my HFY learning, we would recognize this energy within our Ng Loon Ying Jong Faat.

The five battle arrays you mention… That has to do with STRATEGY. Meaning applying the 5 elements understanding of energy to the over-all timeframes within fighting. Or the Macro-cosmic perspective.

Do not confuse the purpose and focus of our Ng Jan Chui Min Juei Ying (5 battle arrays).

It is the Ng Loon Ying Jong Faat that has to do with direct energy. This is the micro-cosmic perspective.

Together they are representative of the ever constant Logic Flow we in HFY so often write about.

One could philosophize them as fractals, as in the nature of all things. This is what makes WCK a true SYSTEM.

You can criticize all you like, but you have grossly misjudged the depth of knowledge contained within HFYWCK.

82

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1014233]No, your analogy is flawed. A bridge collapses like that because of resonance frequency. Has nothing to do with how much it is “able” to flex and move.[/QUOTE]

You still miss the point moron.

The point was that many different approaches to structure can result in a similar outcome - that being a functional bridge.

83

A bridge collapses like that because of resonance frequency. Has nothing to do with how much it is “able” to flex and move.

This is a contradict statement.

84

[QUOTE=taai gihk yahn;1014021]ur an even bigger moron than I thought you were[/QUOTE]

after reading (or trying to read) some of his posts i have to say this somes the guy up perfectly

85

It will be a great help for you if you learn to observe,
instead of react with all kind of claim on things you dont know totally.

In WCK, one was taught to sense and Doing Mun Sau not Bai Jong, that is because In WCK, the WCner is suppose to ask and sense and observe and adapt to what is going on instead of throwing action or words out senseless. That is the key of Comes accept, Goes return…etc.
See, these are not Kiu Sau or Baijong stuffs. Different concept.

Do you even do WCK, Since there is no sign of ASK and Sense signature in your behavior?

[QUOTE=duende;1014243]The BS is the strawman argument being made here over and over again.

No one is saying structure is fixed, or that it is not dynamic.

And if as you say, our 5-battle arrays are not a big deal… then why do you feel the need to criticize them?

Especially considering the fact, that you admittedly are not an expert in their regard.

Again, why is there such a need to put others knowledge down to promote you’re own?

Why would anyone practicing WC disagree with what you have written above? What you have written is WCK.

The disagreement is with the simple-minded criticism and intentional misrepresentation of Bai Jong and Kiu Sau. (And yes Hendrick, we even have Half Point Kiu Sau :stuck_out_tongue: Hahaha)

The truth of the matter is that there are key fundamental ways of dealing with an opponent’s oncoming energy.

It appears Hendrick, and now you are calling them 6 vector forces. From my HFY learning, we would recognize this energy within our Ng Loon Ying Jong Faat.

The five battle arrays you mention… That has to do with STRATEGY. Meaning applying the 5 elements understanding of energy to the over-all timeframes within fighting. Or the Macro-cosmic perspective.

Do not confuse the purpose and focus of our Ng Jan Chui Min Juei Ying (5 battle arrays).

It is the Ng Loon Ying Jong Faat that has to do with direct energy. This is the micro-cosmic perspective.

Together they are representative of the ever constant Logic Flow we in HFY so often write about.

One could philosophize them as fractals, as in the nature of all things. This is what makes WCK a true SYSTEM.

You can criticize all you like, but you have grossly misjudged the depth of knowledge contained within HFYWCK.[/QUOTE]

86

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1014294]This is a contradict statement.[/QUOTE]

All structures flex and move. Mechanical resonance is the phenomenom of a structure flexing and moving in harmony with the environment. This results in a tendency for excess energy to be absorbed and leads to violent swaying motions because of the resonance.

87

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1014300]It will be a great help for you if you learn to observe,
instead of react with all kind of claim on things you dont know totally.
[/QUOTE]

Ummm… do you read your own posts? Know yourself Hendrik before you can know others.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1014300]

In WCK, one was taught to sense and Doing Mun Sau not Bai Jong, that is because In WCK, the WCner is suppose to ask and sense and observe and adapt to what is going on instead of throwing action or words out senseless. That is the key of Comes accept, Goes return…etc.
See, these are not Kiu Sau or Baijong stuffs. Different concept.

Do you even do WCK, Since there is no sign of ASK and Sense signature in your behavior?[/QUOTE]

Do you ask to exist?

With your Mun Sau, you ask your opponent a question, and then they (your opponent) gives you an answer.

In HFY, we meet and accept oncoming energy, and then restore harmony. Energy dictates all. There is no question, there is no answer. Our goal is simply to exist in harmony with the natures. For if you don’t exist, you are a non-starter! hahaha

For you to state that there is no WC or SENSING here, is ridiculous.

But just to make you happy, I’ll do some Hendrik WC for ya:

Who is it that is making statements and claims they no nothing about??? (QUESTION)

Hendrik Santo! (ANSWER)

88

[QUOTE=duende;1014243]The BS is the strawman argument being made here over and over again.

No one is saying structure is fixed, or that it is not dynamic.

And if as you say, our 5-battle arrays are not a big deal… then why do you feel the need to criticize them?

Especially considering the fact, that you admittedly are not an expert in their regard. [/QUOTE]

Don’t take too much stock in what I know or don’t know…you feel the need to discredit me, yet I have said nothing to disparage you. As a student, it is better that I take the attitude of knowing nothing, so I may receive teaching.

I am not criticizing them at all. I agree 100% with them. And they are not that much different from TWC’s 5 concepts or other WCK systems. I do not understand why you have to position it as such. In fact, all WCK works on those five ideas, regardless of what you call them.

For example, in Yip Man WCK, we speak of:

  1. Chiu Mien Dui Ying
  2. Bik Ma Yap Mun
  3. Por Jung
  4. Juie Ying
  5. Wui San or Wui Jung Sien

WCK is WCK.

[QUOTE=duende;1014243]Again, why is there such a need to put others knowledge down to promote you’re own? [/QUOTE]

Forgive me Alex, but perhaps you are reading something different. I completely respect GG and HFY. I fully expect him to have high knowledge since he has family training in the Fu Zhen Xiong system and his father is known in those circles.

Some of your HFY bretheren have displayed complete disrespect to me. I have been very patient. But I appreciate your sect’s loyalty. I also do not look at these as personal attacks, these are just spirited discussions.

I see the rudeness, yelling, anger and swearing as a weak man’s imitation of strength. Also, in training martial arts, you are given a responsibility. Shouldn’t it reflect you are mature enough to handle that responsibility? I don’t want to have to quote Spiderman to you…

[QUOTE=duende;1014243]Why would anyone practicing WC disagree with what you have written above? What you have written is WCK.[/QUOTE]

Good, we are in agreement.

[QUOTE=duende;1014243]The disagreement is with the simple-minded criticism and intentional misrepresentation of Bai Jong and Kiu Sau. (And yes Hendrick, we even have Half Point Kiu Sau :stuck_out_tongue: Hahaha)[/QUOTE]

Let’s not take this the wrong way, but really, you have to look at it from an observer’s point of view… Yes, you have both SNT and SLT. And you have a similar TWC Entry technique, and you have amazingly similar forms to TWC like the ASLT, CK, and Jong. And you have the same Ying, Yi, Lei, Faht characters as Weng Chun, and similar 6.5 points and 18 Kiu Sao. You also have a computer generated photo of your Si Gung, and a school unwilling to show people your “secrets”…its no wonder why people get the impression that HFY is well, fishy…then you go and say, “Its our perogative to keep our secrets!” You create your karma with your actions. I am in no way attacking HFY now. Personally, I really like the summary of the Sup Ming Dim. I think it is quite well packaged.

[QUOTE=duende;1014243]The truth of the matter is that there are key fundamental ways of dealing with an opponent’s oncoming energy.

It appears Hendrick, and now you are calling them 6 vector forces. From my HFY learning, we would recognize this energy within our Ng Loon Ying Jong Faat. [/QUOTE]

Alex, 6 vector forces is an old, old term. You can see them in old legitimate martial arts like Zi Men, Tai Zu, Shaolin, etc. This is nothing new. What’s new are your terms.

[QUOTE=duende;1014243]The five battle arrays you mention… That has to do with STRATEGY. Meaning applying the 5 elements understanding of energy to the over-all timeframes within fighting. Or the Macro-cosmic perspective.

Do not confuse the purpose and focus of our Ng Jan Chui Min Juei Ying (5 battle arrays).

It is the Ng Loon Ying Jong Faat that has to do with direct energy. This is the micro-cosmic perspective.

Together they are representative of the ever constant Logic Flow we in HFY so often write about.

One could philosophize them as fractals, as in the nature of all things. This is what makes WCK a true SYSTEM.[/QUOTE]

What is a true system, what is a false system? A system is just a body of knowledge to take you from ignorance to understanding. There is a tendency to a lot of HFYisms or jargon.

[QUOTE=duende;1014243]You can criticize all you like, but you have grossly misjudged the depth of knowledge contained within HFYWCK.[/QUOTE]

I have no criticism. I think it is a good system and makes a lot of sense. It reminds me a lot of TWC, which I think highly of.

89

Lot of love to you. and I have no comment on your view here on.

[QUOTE=duende;1014308]Ummm… do you read your own posts? Know yourself Hendrik before you can know others.

Do you ask to exist?

With your Mun Sau, you ask your opponent a question, and then they (your opponent) gives you an answer.

In HFY, we meet and accept oncoming energy, and then restore harmony. Energy dictates all. There is no question, there is no answer. Our goal is simply to exist in harmony with the natures. For if you don’t exist, you are a non-starter! hahaha

For you to state that there is no WC or SENSING here, is ridiculous.

But just to make you happy, I’ll do some Hendrik WC for ya:

Who is it that is making statements and claims they no nothing about??? (QUESTION)

Hendrik Santo! (ANSWER)[/QUOTE]

90

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1014303]All structures flex and move.

Mechanical resonance is the phenomenom of a structure flexing and moving in harmony with the environment.

This results in a tendency for excess energy to be absorbed and leads to violent swaying motions because of the resonance.[/QUOTE]

Have you ever heard about DAMPING FACTOR? DAMPER? under damp , over damp, critical damp, system compensation? and do you know what is a Pole and Zero in a control system?

What are they?

Do you homework; get a clear understanding before applied those resonance stuffs. Without a clear concept, how are you applied these in Body mechanic or Bio…etc.

I certainly could reply your post in the same way you post. however that is not the point isnt it?

Originally Posted by Knifefighter View Post
That’s why you need to couple it with biomechanics. Add an exercise physiology class to that
\and you wouldn’t talk the nonsense you talk now.

also, I have never believe in those who advocate grounding/rooting to the ground as the Truth of Universe top martial art. It cant be done.

So, why is six directional force vectors is needed? that is because with the manupulation of the six directional force, one "compensate " one’s dynamic physical system’s Zero and Pole, be able to achieve a oscillatory system for fajing, an under damp system for fast acceleration, a critical damp system for flowing, an over damp system for power absorbtion. and the question is do one’s body has that six directional force vectors training and ability?

It is always silly to be similar to a frog under the well and thinking the sky is a wide as the opening of the well.

91

[QUOTE=chusauli;1014149]An Jing means the strength is there, but hidden. Hua Jing means the strength is changing with the opponent’s changing strength - as such, you are in a state of flux to neutralize.

It means that Hendrik can Hua Jing.

If you are familiar, you must only know the movement of the pelvis is only at the Ming Jing stage, otherwise you know Hendrik can Hua Jing, and it looks like this shape or that shape, accordingly to the vector force the opponent gives him. So dealing with vector force, when you have the idea, has no shape. As I said, you do not overload your frame, (hence “collapsing structure”), but can relax the muscles so that the vector force is “conducted” along the frame. .[/QUOTE]

Robert, thank you very much for the explaination,

                                                                            This was exactly the answer that I was looking for!!

I also use An jing, but I always thought of it as peng jing. and I also use hua jing, but I just think of it as changing to neutralize or to manipulate the opponent’s force. I was not familar with the terminology. Thanks again for the clarification.

[QUOTE=chusauli;1014149] [This way, you can slow the opponent, uproot them, throw them at will, push a little to get their reaction, then strike them as you like. This is all embodied in the WCK Kuit, “Kuen Yau Sum Faat”. [/QUOTE]

This hit it right on the nail. I like to think of it as the Spheric Force Field of Offense and Defense:)

[QUOTE=chusauli;1013900]Most of the time, those who have a “structure” use it at the wrong distance. WCK is supposed to use structure at a close distance to offset the opponent’s balance.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this 100%! what are some of the strategies that you use to close the distance to be able to apply structure?

92

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1014362]Have you ever heard about DAMPING FACTOR? DAMPER? under damp , over damp, critical damp, system compensation? and do you know what is a Pole and Zero in a control system? [/QUOTE]

The fact is, those are completely irrelevant to the original analogy of flexibility and movement.

Without a clear concept, how are you applied these in Body mechanic or Bio…etc.

Mechanical resonance plays no role in body mechanics and efficiency of human performance.

93

[QUOTE=chusauli;1014149]An Jing means the strength is there, but hidden. Hua Jing means the strength is changing with the opponent’s changing strength - as such, you are in a state of flux to neutralize.

It means that Hendrik can Hua Jing.

If you are familiar, you must only know the movement of the pelvis is only at the Ming Jing stage, otherwise you know Hendrik can Hua Jing, and it looks like this shape or that shape, accordingly to the vector force the opponent gives him. So dealing with vector force, when you have the idea, has no shape. As I said, you do not overload your frame, (hence “collapsing structure”), but can relax the muscles so that the vector force is “conducted” along the frame. .[/QUOTE]

Robert, thank you very much for the explaination,

                                                                            This was exactly the answer that I was looking for!!

I also use An jing, but I always thought of it as peng jing. and I also use hua jing, but I just think of it as changing to neutralize or to manipulate the opponent’s force. I was not familar with the terminology. Thanks again for the clarification.

When you met Andreas Hoffman, did he also use An jing and Hua jing, because I’ve only seen him do ming jing?

[QUOTE=chusauli;1014149] [This way, you can slow the opponent, uproot them, throw them at will, push a little to get their reaction, then strike them as you like. This is all embodied in the WCK Kuit, “Kuen Yau Sum Faat”. [/QUOTE]

This hit it right on the nail. I like to think of it as the Spheric Force Field of Offense and Defense:)

[QUOTE=chusauli;1013900]Most of the time, those who have a “structure” use it at the wrong distance. WCK is supposed to use structure at a close distance to offset the opponent’s balance.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this 100%!

What are some of the strategies that you use to close the distance to be able to apply structure?

94

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1014364]The fact is, those are completely irrelevant to the original analogy of flexibility and movement.
Mechanical resonance plays no role in body mechanics and efficiency of human performance.[/QUOTE]

Who cares about analogy? What is the point to get all the knowledge which is non applicable with the reality? isnt it those stuffs are just talk nonsense as you phrase it? nonsense from east or west or physics are all nonsense.

In fact, mechanical resonance plays a major role in FAJING performance. It is via resonance or starting of oscillatory state one get a fast acceleration and make a momentum transfer, although One usually not finished an oscillation cycle or the second cycle has left with only very little momentum / amplitude to resonance.

it is about dynamic control system design technology. Same with in Robotics today same with human body. if one intended to go physics then go all the way instead of wasting time on wrong model and wrong assumption just to win an argument for ego boost.

and in fact,

why is six directional force vectors handling is needed? that is because with the manupulation of the six directional force, one "compensate " one’s dynamic physical system’s Zero and Pole, be able to achieve a oscillatory system for fajing, an under damp system for fast acceleration, a critical damp system for flowing, an over damp system for power absorbtion. and the question is do one’s body has that six directional force vectors training and ability to implement them?

Thus, I have never believe in those who advocate grounding/rooting to the ground as the Truth of Universe top martial art. that is not the case. those are just one single case or one element for designing a dynamic power transfer system.

With this, I would love to let those who always says " I have it too. I can Hua Jin too…my WC has the six directional force vectors… as in this chinese term or that chinese term." Dont kid yourself. It is about technology to make things happen. It is not lips service.

95

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014365]Robert, thank you very much for the explaination,

                                                                            This was exactly the answer that I was looking for!! [/QUOTE]

Great.

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014365]I also use An jing, but I always thought of it as peng jing. and I also use hua jing, but I just think of it as changing to neutralize or to manipulate the opponent’s force. I was not familar with the terminology. Thanks again for the clarification.

When you met Andreas Hoffman, did he also use An jing and Hua jing, because I’ve only seen him do ming jing?[/QUOTE]

An Jing means you hide your obvious, make it subtle. It is not Peng Jing. Peng Jing is Tai Ji’s way to whole body power, as expressed in the first of the 13 ways of Tai Ji. It means head to toe is connected.

Hua Jing is using neutralization of energy. Where did I put the load? Where can I load so I don’t overload to restrict or slow me? How much control do I need? It is about using just enough, not go overboard all out, all of the time.

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014365]This hit it right on the nail. I like to think of it as the Spheric Force Field of Offense and Defense:)[/QUOTE]

GM Chu Shang Tin also relates is like this, too.

Basically you have a cue ball - you can aim it in all directions around you…and shoot or expand as you desire.

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014365]I agree with this 100%!

What are some of the strategies that you use to close the distance to be able to apply structure?[/QUOTE]

You should already know…the strategies are all WCK - Yap Mun (Enter to gate), Bik Seung (Close in), Sik Dae (Eat Space), Juie Ying (Chase Form), Tib San (Close Body), Hung Jai Sum Jung (Control the Center of Gravity)… and others. That is the Kuen Faat of WCK.

96

[QUOTE=chusauli;1014149]An Jing means the strength is there, but hidden. Hua Jing means the strength is changing with the opponent’s changing strength - as such, you are in a state of flux to neutralize.

It means that Hendrik can Hua Jing.
[/QUOTE]

And of course don’t forget the Dung Jing, which is the force with which you can take a …

Oh, never mind.

97

Thanks for the reply Robert!

[QUOTE=chusauli;1014374]An Jing means you hide your obvious, make it subtle. It is not Peng Jing. Peng Jing is Tai Ji’s way to whole body power, as expressed in the first of the 13 ways of Tai Ji. It means head to toe is connected..[/QUOTE]

I used the term Peng jing to discribe the wing chun whole body connectedness because it was the closest term that i could find that explained this idea. Since I didn’t think wing chun had a name for this.

[QUOTE=chusauli;1014374]GM Chu Shang Tin also relates is like this, too. [/QUOTE]

Would you say GM Tsui Sheung Tin uses the 6 Directional force vector, hua jin, and An jing as well?

[QUOTE=chusauli;1014374]
You should already know…the strategies are all WCK - Yap Mun (Enter to gate), Bik Seung (Close in), Sik Dae (Eat Space), Juie Ying (Chase Form), Tib San (Close Body), Hung Jai Sum Jung (Control the Center of Gravity)… and others. That is the Kuen Faat of WCK.[/QUOTE]

I am familar with these strategies, I guess What I am asking is how do you personnally apply them?

98

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1014373]Who cares about analogy? [/QUOTE]

Apparently, you did.

In fact, mechanical resonance plays a major role in FAJING performance. It is via resonance or starting of oscillatory state one get a fast acceleration and make a momentum transfer, although One usually not finished an oscillation cycle or the second cycle has left with only very little momentum / amplitude to resonance.
why is six directional force vectors handling is needed? that is because with the manupulation of the six directional force, one "compensate " one’s dynamic physical system’s Zero and Pole, be able to achieve a oscillatory system for fajing, an under damp system for fast acceleration, a critical damp system for flowing, an over damp system for power absorbtion. and the question is do one’s body has that six directional force vectors training and ability to implement them?.

LOL @ six directional force vectors, mechanical resonance, and Fajing… welcome to the zone of the theoretical non-fighter ™.

99

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014378]Thanks for the reply Robert!

You’re welcome.

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014378]I used the term Peng jing to discribe the wing chun whole body connectedness because it was the closest term that i could find that explained this idea. Since I didn’t think wing chun had a name for this.[/QUOTE]

This is not correct. Peng is a Tai Ji word.

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014378]Would you say GM Tsui Sheung Tin uses the 6 Directional force vector, hua jin, and An jing as well? [/QUOTE]

Why don’t you ask him?

I do not like to answer questions like this. Can you guess why?

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014378]I am familar with these strategies, I guess What I am asking is how do you personnally apply them?[/QUOTE]

KFF, WCK is basically Lai Lou Hui Soong, Lut Sao Jik Chung. It is not how I apply it - it is how you apply it. I do not teach my way, I show you a way or options, then you make your choice. WCK is not like other systems that gives you one answer. Its all about choices. You should know this. If Dunn Wah taught like Moy Yat, you know this is the way.

100

[QUOTE=chusauli;1014404][QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1014378]This is not correct. Peng is a Tai Ji word.[/QUOTE]

Would you say ground reaction force is a better term to discribe hua jing and An jing?