[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;942212]I can tell you this, the ability to generate enough force to damage and incapacitate with strikes is far more crucial for a smaller/lighter fighter than for a bigger one, for obvious reasons.
I recall Mas Oyama once saying, I would rather get hit by a dozen “slaps” than one punch.
For bigger people that carry more weight in their strikes “naturally”, systems that advocate multiple “machine gun” strikes are a fine fit ( think kenpo), but for those that must generate far more mass/force behind their strikes, well, lets just say that power is at a premium.[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;942212]
Probably why Lam Wing-Fei’s Jook Lum favored elusive movement, and rapid-fire, multiple strikes utilizing the fung-an choy to nerve clusters.
_BTW-to people who are ready to go off and troll about "all that phoenix-eye, etc is bull****, Jook Lum also has heavier strikes, elbows, hammerfists, etc. It’s not all “deadly dim-mak.”
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;942212]I can tell you this, the ability to generate enough force to damage and incapacitate with strikes is far more crucial for a smaller/lighter fighter than for a bigger one, for obvious reasons.
I recall Mas Oyama once saying, I would rather get hit by a dozen “slaps” than one punch.
For bigger people that carry more weight in their strikes “naturally”, systems that advocate multiple “machine gun” strikes are a fine fit ( think kenpo), but for those that must generate far more mass/force behind their strikes, well, lets just say that power is at a premium.[/QUOTE]
Probably why Lam Wing-Fei’s Jook Lum favored elusive movement, and rapid-fire, multiple strikes utilizing the fung-an choy to nerve clusters.
BTW-to people who are ready to go off and troll about "all that phoenix-eye, etc is bull****, Jook Lum also has heavier strikes, elbows, hammerfists, etc. It’s not all “deadly dim-mak.”
And…look at it this way-if I have a ballpien hammer, and I pop you in the face, you will be in a world of hurt, (even if momentarily) and I can follow up. It’s not magic, or mysticism. It’s just pain and the shock that accompanies it. It’s not meant to be a coup de gras, but more of a set-up. Like a jab, but causing a heckuvalot more sharp pain. It’s only one tool out of many.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;942249]Probably why Lam Wing-Fei’s Jook Lum favored elusive movement, and rapid-fire, multiple strikes utilizing the fung-an choy to nerve clusters.
BTW-to people who are ready to go off and troll about "all that phoenix-eye, etc is bull****, Jook Lum also has heavier strikes, elbows, hammerfists, etc. It’s not all “deadly dim-mak.”
And…look at it this way-if I have a ballpien hammer, and I pop you in the face, you will be in a world of hurt, (even if momentarily) and I can follow up. It’s not magic, or mysticism. It’s just pain and the shock that accompanies it. It’s not meant to be a coup de gras, but more of a set-up. Like a jab, but causing a heckuvalot more sharp pain. It’s only one tool out of many.[/QUOTE]
I can and have drilled people though phone books with my PE fist, I used it as a Kubotan !!
Years ago the JKA did a study about muscular strenght and effort in strikes ( It can be found in Nakayamas book, Dynamic Karate) and they found that the first 3 strikes of combination were the most powerful, the 2nd being the most, but after that there was a CONSIDERABLE drop in force and speed.
that would make sense, as your first strikes in most cases, are combined with launching the body,body torquing+adding momentum,(think step jab/cross) whereas your follow ups are body torquing alone.
[QUOTE=TenTigers;942255]that would make sense, as your first strikes in most cases, are combined with launching the body,body torquing+adding momentum,(think step jab/cross) whereas your follow ups are body torquing alone.[/QUOTE]
Yep.
I remember when I started to forge my PE fist, I had alawys been told it was not needed because you are aiming for the “soft spots” anyways.
Unfortunately, in a fight, those soft spots tend to be coveerd by hard spots !!
So I forged it, I can do push-ups on them on concrete, hit them on the IP bag and can drill close to full force on the HB.
I only used it once in a “playful” sparring match with open fingered gloves and was asked politely to NOT bring “blunt weapon” into training.
LOL!!
[QUOTE=TenTigers;942198]Hey Victor,
doesn’t the inverted punch in chum kiu utilize the torquing of the waist and shoulder? If it’s in the form, then it’s in the system. If a concept is brought up, then it can be expanded upon and extrapolated, thus being applied to different circumstances, strikes, etc. I am I correct here, or am I misunderstanding the strike, or delving too deep? (is there such a thing?);)[/QUOTE]
***IT WAS in the chum kiu form I learned from Moy Yat, but in William Cheung’s (TWC) chum kiu it’s not there.
In Moy Yat’s version, it was explained that this was a punch back to the centerline when you need to quickly return to it - similar to much of how the bil jee form is explained.
In any event, yeah, I suppose you could look upon it as an uppercut type punch with lots of body torque - but in the overall wing chun scheme of things, it’s much more of an “exception” than it is the “rule”.
But for myself, that is NOT the exception. I think that’s key. If u (general sense) have a default view of chain punching as ur attack, then u have limited urself. I see uppercuts, hooks, cross, chain punches all the same and accessible for use.
In other words, u can turn the shoulder when it’s safe to turn the shoulder to land a blow. U can throw a hook when the opening is there. It all becomes “alive” and free. Wing chun training simply let’s u do this - not restrict u from it.
That’s a very good point grasshopper, people need to let go of chain punching and pratice other punches that utilize body motion more. There are lots of different strikes in the system, and there are lots of different body mechanics in the forms and drills. Welcome to the forum.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;942331]As far as uppercuts, hooks, and crosses go - I prefer to work with the boxing ways of throwing them…and then work that into my wing chun…
and work my wing chun into the boxing.
Pretty mystical, huh?!
That was zen and this is now! [/QUOTE]
Totally was zen. haha - i agree. It’s interesting, once you get the hang of throwing hits out the “wing chun” way, your boxing punch (as it appears) will have that wing chun feel and character to it…
PunchDrunk - thanks! so far it’s been good here. seems like thre’s effort to stay away from politics and bashing each other. Nice to see!
Now this is a very interesting sparring match. First of all, both guys are about the same exact height, weight, reach. And watch how often the wing chun guy eats punches (and some kicks) from longer range…and how he does much better from close range…
although clearly his skills in other arts also helped a great deal from close range (ie.- sambo, wrestling/grappling).
And look what happened later in the fight when the san shou/kickboxer guy tries a spinning back-kick (give credit to the wing chun guy for being close enough and alert enough to jam it)…
All-in-all, what I see here is a wing chun short range striking strategy doing little more than counter-striking and counter-reacting (although at times he did it fairly well) - against a stylist with more longer range weaponry.
Cool vid! it’s great to see guys mixing it up like that!~
FWIW, I watched that video, and I don’t think the WC guy was getting tagged by those longer range shots ‘because he was using WC’. I think he ate those shots because he didn’t understand how to engage using WC.
What I saw was, when the other guy started throwing those shots from outside, instead of using gate theory and proper bridging, the WC guy just fired back with shots of his own - he was trading with the guy. It was effective at times because he was using CL theory while the other guy was taking the longer path. But, he still ended up eating the long range punches in return.
Sometimes he even stepped back when he did it, which gave the other guy even more opportunity to throw more of those long range attacks. Only when the WC guy ate up the space was he most effective at neutralizing the long range shots. He ate the long range shots when he either stood there and tried to trade punches, or when he backed up.
I admit I only watch half the video, but it was enough to see he wasn’t using WC engagmetn or bridging strategies to shut his opponent down to stop those long range shots from being effective.
Again, it was a cool video, and nice to see WC guys mixing it up and sparring the way a MA fighter should!
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;942730]Now this is a very interesting sparring match. First of all, both guys are about the same exact height, weight, reach. And watch how often the wing chun guy eats punches (and some kicks) from longer range…and how he does much better from close range…
although clearly his skills in other arts also helped a great deal from close range (ie.- sambo, wrestling/grappling).
And look what happened later in the fight when the san shou/kickboxer guy tries a spinning back-kick (give credit to the wing chun guy for being close enough and alert enough to jam it)…
All-in-all, what I see here is a wing chun short range striking strategy doing little more than counter-striking and counter-reacting (although at times he did it fairly well) - against a stylist with more longer range weaponry.
I dont think the Chunna ate any punches or kicks at all. Any of the Blue mask’s punches that landed hardly even made the Chunna break structure. The blue mask was off balance most of the time which is why there was no power in his strikes or kicks and why Red(Chunna) didnt have to worry about the long range.
I argue that the strikes you saw Red ‘eating’ were just bouncing off harmlessly. Also all of those attempts at shooting didnt work because of the same reason…Chunna had balance and didnt compromise structure and idea.
Now the Chunna’s strikes, on the other hand, were rocking Blues world. I also noticed that the further into the clip…Blue was more and more on the retreat. Red was jamming and stop-kicking at will.
As far as skills in other arts go…I didnt see Red(chunna) do anything but maintain balance, which is not a different concept or art outside of WC…even when he spoiled all those shoots. This is not to say that the RED didnt have any other skills…but just because he foiled some shoots and turned a guys ground attempts against him doesnt HAVE to mean that he used something OTHER that WC.
I agree, a lot of the shots from Blue didn’t have as much pepper on them when they landed. And, red did ‘intercept’ blues attempts to strike. And, he did control CL.
But, he intercepted Blue’s intent with punches of his own - Red still was, for the most part, trading punches. There was no real bridge control, and no ‘control’ over Blue’s COG when trading punches. Yeah, he disrupted the punches by striking in return, but he still caught the punches (even if less effectively as you pointed out).
And, I am aware you can’t stop all punches - a weakened punch is better than a full-on punch. But for the “just bouncing off harmlessly” remark, they were wearing head gear and gloves. Those punches still would have quite a bit of sting if they were knuckle on cheakboane as a lot of those were.
Either way, my points still stand. Red did back up a lot, even directly after landed a shot. He didn’t eat up space most time. And, he didn’t show a good awareness for engagement. But he did, for the most part still handle his opponent.
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;942778]Chris, … Red did back up a lot, even directly after landed a shot. He didn’t eat up space most time. And, he didn’t show a good awareness for engagement. But he did, for the most part still handle his opponent.[/QUOTE]
I agree here wholeheartedly. I think had he done this better he would not have had to deal with the shoots or the power kicks hardly as much… if at all.
[QUOTE=Graychuan;942789]I agree here wholeheartedly. I think had he done this better he would not have had to deal with the shoots or the power kicks hardly as much… if at all.[/QUOTE]
That thread was too funny. I especially liked the part on there where Victor gave everyone sh!it because those fighters were not from the right lineage and he was going to make a video to show how the right lineage did it right and then never made the video.
I also liked the part when the WC guys talked about how bad it was to “slip into boxing style”, as if using something that actually worked was something you wanted to try and avoid.
Another good part was where Victor was saying one of the “only three good lineages” was from Bruce Lee… this after telling me sometime back that the type of WC I had learned was no good because this was the lineage.
I’m guessing the thread got locked and cut at the end when everyone started giving Victor cr@p for never coming up with the video and he started making up a bunch of excuses why he couldn’t do that.
