Toe to testicle range

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

The “modern” wing chun practitioners are so worried about the different ranges of combat. For example, grappling range, kicking range, clince range, boxing range, etc, etc.

The question I pose is why? Why make something so simple so complicated? Unless you are 8-foot tall, there will always be someone taller than you; someone with superior reach \ range than you. In other words, no matter how much you extend your range, someone will still out-reach you. If your opponent out-reach you by 10-inches, are you going to adopt the savate type of kicks by extending your little toes in your wing chun front kick? Or…(roll of drums…) the most simple solution of all, why don’t we let our opponent come to us? Dare I say it, would that be too simple?

Some would say that wing chun is lacking at longer ranges..the simple solution is, don’t fight at those range which would favour our opponent. Let them come to us.
To me, wing chun is very simple – you are either in or out of range. To compete on long range, someone will always beat you. Wong Shun Leung had proven that long range isn’t a problem. Although sifu Wong barely stood above 5’4, he could beat opponent’s whose range far out-reached his. How was this possible? Easy: he didn’t fight his opponent in foot range, long boxing range, out-stretched toe range, long middle finger range…No, he simply let the opponent come within hitting range. LOL

sik siu siu ban doy bil

2

The “modern” wing chun practitioners are so worried about the different ranges of combat.

You referring to any straw man in particular, Jack?

3

anerlick sez: You referring to any straw man in particular, Jack?

Yes Jill

LOL

4 
     chisauking The "modern" wing chun practitioners are so worried about the different ranges of combat. For example, grappling range, kicking range, clince range, boxing range, etc, etc.

The question I pose is why? Why make something so simple so complicated? Unless you are 8-foot tall, there will always be someone taller than you; someone with superior reach \ range than you. In other words, no matter how much you extend your range, someone will still out-reach you. If your opponent out-reach you by 10-inches, are you going to adopt the savate type of kicks by extending your little toes in your wing chun front kick? Or…(roll of drums…) the most simple solution of all, why don’t we let our opponent come to us? Dare I say it, would that be too simple?

Some would say that wing chun is lacking at longer ranges..the simple solution is, don’t fight at those range which would favour our opponent. Let them come to us.
To me, wing chun is very simple – you are either in or out of range. To compete on long range, someone will always beat you. Wong Shun Leung had proven that long range isn’t a problem. Although sifu Wong barely stood above 5’4, he could beat opponent’s whose range far out-reached his. How was this possible? Easy: he didn’t fight his opponent in foot range, long boxing range, out-stretched toe range, long middle finger range…No, he simply let the opponent come within hitting range. LOL

sik siu siu ban doy bil

Excellent post…

5

Im 5`6 and id agree bout moving to the range ur comfortabl with but thats just good combat fighting ur fight not theres. ive perfected the best range though 300ft away running run away fight another day.

6

Did common sense fly out the window?
A leg is usually longer than an arm.

An opponent can kick you from a distance where you can’t punch him.
So if you’re waiting for him to move into punching range you could be in a position where you can get kicked and you can’t punch back.

If you are comfortable with kicking than it’s a different story but I don’t believe WC people are usually at the technical level of other arts who specialize in kicking.

7

Yes Jill

Be careful you don’t fall down and break your crown.

After that first post, are you sure it’s not you who’s obsessed with ranges? I’m not.

A worthy opponent is going to try to take you out of the zone where you are most comfortable.

If you’re waiting for him to get where you can punch him and he kicks the crap out of you at distance and stays there, then your strategy failed.

Just because WSL did it (according to you) doesn’t mean you or just any WC student can.

8

Mr Anerlich what are you saying . . . lol . . . next you will be telling me that I can not play basketball like Michael Jordan . . . or box like Mohammed Ali . . . or surf like Kelly Slater . . . and so on . . . if I can not do it like these people or do what these people can do what is left for me. . . doing it as myself the best I can . . . finding my own way . . . lol . . . what a crazy idea!

Thanks,

Ghost

9

It would be a fools game to just sit isolated in one spot and wait for your opponent to come to you, especially when they are a long range fighter. You can manuver in and out of the long range to entice your opponent to commit to a strike, thats when you make your move. Lets not forget the fact that WC fighters are “allowed” to move around, lol. In fact, the more you move the better off you’ll be because you are no longer a sitting duck…

10

Mr. Ghost, are you just playing devil’s advocate here?

How could you even begin to think you would have the skills to play like Michael, box like Ali, surf like Kelly Slater, skateboard like Tony Hawk, play guitar like Andreas Segovia (sp? - the list could go on) when your thinking goes something like this “. . . other areas of life that are more important to me than wc . . . so for me I know that being the best I can be is not a realistic option . . .”?:confused:

if I can not do it like these people or do what these people can do what is left for me. . . doing it as myself the best I can . . . finding my own way . . . lol . . . what a crazy idea!

I don’t know what you’re saying about ‘finding my own way’, but ‘doing it as myself the best I can’…that is a novel (crazy) idea.:eek:

11

Mr Justin . . . I always play devil’s advocate . . . lol . . . even with myself . . . because I am always questioning things . . . I know this can be annoying . . . I even find myself annoying . . . lol. In this case I was thinking that Mr Anerlich had good view . . . that we should not chase others . . . in this case try to be like late Wong Sueng Leung . . . it is great that these people provide inspiration for us . . . but there is difference between inspiration and trying to be replica of them . . . if you see what I mean. I am also thinking that Micheal Jordan and Kelly Slater and Wong Seung Leung and others achievements are because besides question of talent is that they do their acitvity their way . . . they not copy others . . . they get good being original individual . . . and then have followers who try to get good being xerox copy . . . lol . . . at least this was my thinking when I make post . . . I hope it not annoy you . . . as I say I can be annoying. If I annoy you I apologize.

Thanks,

Ghost

12

Sure but you have to train against those attacks, or better yet, those skilled in these venues in order to develop the ability to learn how to correctly bypass their ranges. It also helps to fully understand your range and how to keep it.

Each art has its range of specialization and each artist who chooses a range to specialize at should be familiar with how to get into that range. Understanding the general tactics at work at each range and getting experience with folks who use other methods is a no brainier for stacking the deck.

Or you could just do “don’t hit me” Chi Sao all day and forget about all of this crazy stuff. LOL :slight_smile:

“Know thy enemy and know thyself and you will always be victorious.” - Sun Tzu

13

CSK writes:

To me, wing chun is very simple – you are either in or out of range

I’d agree, that’s simple, in many senses of the word.

Most Wing Chun people appeal to this argument, which overlooks the reality that control of range is a skill to be learned. You wait for them to come to you? Great, that’s called ‘being a counterfighter’- incidentally not really how I’m told Wong fought (and not how most little guys fight big guys and win)- that style of fighting as with any other requires you know the difference between being ‘in’ and ‘out’ of range- something you overlook with such simplification. Learning the difference on a guy who knows how to close with a stiff jab to draw you, and moves off the jab, in, out, angling, with level changes, setting you up for the next punch, kick, takedown- that’s a skill, saying it’s ‘very simple’ is much like dismissing all of chi sao as ‘just feeling’.

Andrew

14

Good posts, AndrewS and Edmund. But for me, the key flaw to this thread can be found right here in chisauking’s opening post:

“Some would say that wing chun is lacking at longer ranges..the simple solution is, don’t fight at those range which would favour our opponent. Let them come to us.”

***AS IT HAS ALREADY been pointed out, 5’4" Wong Shun Leung was known for bringing the fight to his opponents; and it’s a cold day in hell when a smaller man can fight a big man (who’s any good) successfully without bringing the fight to him.

Which means, as Edmund pointed out, he needs to be able to fight through the longer ranges. But “letting someone come to us” makes us a counter fighter (as AndrewS pointed out).

This is not a good strategy against any good fighter - not just bigger men.

Because if his attacks are good - you’re almost always playing catchup - and you’re letting him set the tone and therefore control the fight.

Bottom line? Sometimes you will have no choice about fighting at longer ranges - because you realize that you have to bring the fight to him and he’s good at defending and attacking in the longer ranges…(made all the more pronounced if he’s also a big man with long arms and long legs and good skills at trying to keep the fight in those longer ranges. Watch any of Mirko Cro Cop’s fights to see what I’m talking about - as just one example).

Hence my belief in the value of using some fight strategies and techniques (from other systems) that specialize in those longer ranges - as a way to fight your way in…since wing chun is primarily a close infight. You can’t just rely on the concept of…“well as soon as he starts to move in with an attack I’ll make my move to come in on him”.

Because it requires you to always have to correctly read his moves first, and then in the blink of an eye, find the perfect counter, the perfect angle for the counter, etc.

You’re playing catchup constantly. Not smart. If he’s fast, strong, and good at long range punching, footwork, and kicking - then you’re almost always one step behind. Successful fighting requires that you always try to be one step in front…and to do this against a skilled fighter from a starting position of more than about three feet away (which could be very often)…you need some longer range moves other than what are commonly found in wing chun.

15

I’m in agreement with a lot of the posts.

Even if your strategy was to be a counter fighter, the longer range would be where you would have to focus a decent part of your training - to get the timing and angles.

And you would have to train with partners who were good at long range techniques to perfect your strategy against decent attacks.

You’d practice by getting your partner starting from out of reach, kicking, attacking in combinations etc. Even if you’re weak at long range techniques, you need to practice against someone who’s good at them.

In the end, it helps a lot if you’re at least competent in some long range techniques yourself.

16

Out of range range

Ah, the good old internet. Just as usual, my point has been taken right out of context once again. Let me quickly address a few points…

Anerlick sez: Just because WSL did it (according to you) doesn’t mean you or just any WC student can.

Good old Anerlick, you have this amazing perception to state the obvious. Just because some people understands wing chun, doesn’t mean everybody understands wing chun. (stating the obvious)

In keeping with wing chun ideals, I try to keep every thing that I do simple, easy, and direct. My core point was, why complicate things? Why confuse people by saying “grappling range”? Does this mean that at this range, techniques are exclusive to grappling techniques? Ho, ho, ho. LOL. No, off course not. At this range, we can punch, palm, kick, elbow, jab, headbutt, etc., etc. Or, to simplify things, we can “simply” say we are in hitting range.

In response to critism that wing chun lacks long range ability, I tried to illustrate, with the example of Wong sifu, that this was not the case. I reasoned that if you need long range wing chun, then you will always be at a disadvantage to taller people. For example, no matter what “long range” wing chun sifu Wong tries to adopt, he will never out-reach an opponent that’s 10-inches taller than him. So the idea is not to focus on the long range, but concentrate on the distancing between you and your opponent. I can’t see the logic of appending millions of different styles to your wing chun skills in order to overcome the so-called weakness in wing chun’s long range ability, when what you actually need is distancing \ closing the gap skills – which is catered for in Chuim Kil. I simply refute that at the so-called ‘grappling range’, wing chun’s skills is any less in dealing with your opponent. If you agree with me, why call it grappling range?

Here is some key points regarding distancing…

  1. No matter how much you focus on ‘long range’ wing chun, some one will have a greater range than yourself, therefore only a fool, or a very, very tall person, would focus on this aspect of wing chun.
  2. If you stay in your opponent’s hitting range, but you are out of his range, then you are a fool
    3 ) If you are facing a taller opponent than yourself with greater reach, you must bridge the gap so that you are also within hitting range. (there are more ways to acheive this than by waiting for your opponent to come to you, but it doesn’t mean you have to include western boxing, BJJ, TKD, fencing, etc. etc. in your portfilo of techniques)
  3. Don’t worry if you are only in your opponent’s so-called kicking range. If he can kick you, you can intercept his kicks also.
  4. Just as you don’t play your opponent’s game, you got to be at the distance which you are comfortable with. At the end of the day,it’s about closing the gap, and not fighting at longer range (whatever that means)

As many can see from the above examples, there are only 2 real ranges – in or out of range. Also in keeping with wing chun’s principles, I’d kept things simple and direct. By mastering distancing, I can match anyone, regardless of height and reach. By focusing on longer range techniques, you limit yourself to opponent’s that’s your height \ reach or only slightly taller.

Which method is simpler? You decide. Please: no more stating the obvious like: you can only master distancing skills if you have good footwork.

17

Like you’re misunderstood?

You stated that WSL let people come to him therefore there’s no need to practice or think about long range techniques. Everyone pointed out the simple arguments against that idea but you still keep ignoring the points made.

18

Edmund is correct.

19

In order to become proficient at this one must gain experience working from that range; I think that’s all most folks are saying, that and, it would be advisable to seek folks out who actually know how to use that range with some skill. How far to go is up to each person.

Yes you can say that - as you are being dragged down to the ground by a grappler, but I don’t think it’s going to help you…

Just as WCK has it’s range of specialization so does BJJ, Catch, Sambo, Greco, etc. Now if you think that’s the same range as WCK you are going to find yourself in a world of trouble.

Lets look at some positions:

  1. Body Lock

Lets say you are in the midst of closing on the opponent and you find yourself in a body lock about to be lifted off the floor - your WCK technique choice will be what?

  1. On your back

You are knocked down and on your back and the opponent has followed you down and has you in a side control - your WCK technique of choice will be what?

  1. Opponent throws a lead and you do a perfect pak but sadly he goes low and has both arms around your lead leg as he drives into you for the takedown - your WCK technique of choice will be what?

While WCK is great it is not trained for use on the ground or against grapplers; they will be using different methods that a non-grappler will NOT be familiar with and using the floor to help control you. If you are in grappling range then you already missed your chance to use your WCK and are now in another world unless you are training WCK techniques on the ground and to defend against takedowns, in which case please explain.

Again in order to deal with grapplers you need to work with grapplers and at least learn some grappling basics. This is a given today, anyone serious about being well rounded must add some grappling/groundwork into the mix. If you don’t work with grapplers you will be grappled.

Bruce also thought he would be immune to the effects of grapplers until he found himself being sat on by Judo Gene Labelle. Later that day Bruce decided to add grappling into his mix and shortly after that MMA was born and even depicted in ETD.

20

Looooooooooong range wing chunners

Ah, the subject is moving off tangent now. From trying to keep things simple, folks here has made it even more complex \ confusing…

I just want to cover one more thing in regards to sifu Wong before I let the people who loves to argue for the sake of arguing take the soap box. It’s quite true no matter where you are in the world, you will always get silly buggers.

Edmund sez: Like you’re misunderstood?

You stated that WSL let people come to him therefore there’s no need to practice or think about long range techniques. Everyone pointed out the simple arguments against that idea but you still keep ignoring the points made.

I’d tried to illustrate the point using Wong sifu simply because he was a very small guy. He could beat bigger and taller people NOT by resorting to ‘long range’ techniques, because no matter what long range techniques he could have applied, it still would not be as ‘long range’ as a vastly taller opponent. Letting your opponent come to you is one of the ways to get within hitting range, at no time did I state that was the ONLY way. If you want to contort what I’d said to get your argument across, go ahead.

YungChung sez: In order to become proficient at this one must gain experience working from that range; I think that’s all most folks are saying, that and, it would be advisable to seek folks out who actually know how to use that range with some skill. How far to go is up to each person.

Stating the obvious again. Just like saying if you want to get good at wing chun you must practice hard and correctly. That’s a given with every thing. It’s your problem to make out there are many ranges in combat if you want, but it doesn’t take a genius to work out that if you are in hitting range, you can use practically what techniques you choose. If you want to delude yourself that there are significantly different ranges of fighting, whereby different techniques are exclusive to that range, you carry on complicating things.

Just a quick question to all the REAL fighters on this forum with all their battle experiences: What ‘long range’ techniques could a small guy use against a vastly taller opponent? What would you call that ‘range’? LOL