Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun teacher Alan Orr’s student Josh Kaldani lands a knockdown in the first round and the best Wing Chun punch KO in MMA in the second round.
The Iron Wolves Team is lead by Alan Orr and has for many years been putting CSL Wing Chun to test in the Cage and Ring.
Some people will ask where is the Wing Chun as they think you should see basic training drills. In application you see the result of our training - power, structure of movement, timing, positional control, angles of punches. You will see our CSL Chinese Boxing Skills. Wing Chun is Chinese Boxing.
MMA is Mixed Martial Arts so we train the arts we need.
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Alan Orr is a Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun 8th Degree Black Belt under his Master Robert Chu
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Alan Orr is a Black Belt in BJJ under his Master World Champion Leo Negao
Also Alan has a background in Catch Wrestling. plus some training in Sambo and Judo.
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Nice to see the concepts and attributes of wing chun being applied in MMA. This is something I am exploring in own training at the moment. My fear is that many wing chun people will not appreciate the video because they are constrained with what wing chun should look like in a fight rather than what it can achieve.
I think we have all seen the videos on YouTube of wing chun exponents being made to look silly and their art failing them. Time to move forward whilst embracing the past but not to be defined by it.
[QUOTE=paulcaz;1265261]My fear is that many wing chun people will not appreciate the video because they are constrained with what wing chun should look like in a fight rather than what it can achieve.[/QUOTE]
Well, I can appreciate the theory Alan covers in his clips. He seems to be one of the few who understands the difference between training form and the abstract nature of the application of Wing Chun, as well as how to bridge the two.
That said however, a big overhand thrown by a guy who trains WC doesn’t make it a “Wing Chun punch”. It’s indistinguishable from the same punch any other MMA fighter who’s never trained WC would throw, and is not an “angle of punch” in any WC lineage I’m familiar with.
At the end of the day, it got the job done. So whatever. Call it whatever pleases you.
[QUOTE=paulcaz;1265261]Nice to see the concepts and attributes of wing chun being applied in MMA. This is something I am exploring in own training at the moment. My fear is that many wing chun people will not appreciate the video because they are constrained with what wing chun should look like in a fight rather than what it can achieve.
.[/QUOTE]
I like Alan Orr and what he is doing. But watching this clip I would not have thought this was Wing Chun if it wasn’t in the tag line. To me, this is MMA with some WCK concepts included. This is not straight up Wing Chun. Wing Chun looks like Wing Chun because that is what it is. You can’t do boxing with some Tan Sau’s, Bong Sau’s and WCK concepts and call it Wing Chun. That’s Jeet Kune Do! :) I certainly appreciate the skill and athleticism shown in the video. But it gives me no idea of what his Wing Chun knowledge might be, or if he even does Wing Chun!
[QUOTE=KPM;1265298]I like Alan Orr and what he is doing. But watching this clip I would not have thought this was Wing Chun if it wasn’t in the tag line. To me, this is MMA with some WCK concepts included. This is not straight up Wing Chun. Wing Chun looks like Wing Chun because that is what it is.
[/QUOTE]
Here’s the thing you know what wing chun practiced in unrealistic settings looks like as in chi sau and san sau and so forth, and you think this is what it will look like when things get really hot and heavy when going all out in fighting. That viewpoint is not based on experience really doing that or even seeing it done like that since you cannot point me to anyone who is able to do it like you think it should be done. Why is it do you think that the guys who train wing chun like the Orr team or Obasi or anyone else does not end up looking like how you think they should? Did it ever occur to you that maybe it is because you have unrealistic ideas of what wing chun is and how it works and that maybe guys like Orr simply have a realistic idea that comes from genuine realistic experience? In other words, they are just much more advanced than you?
It is howling funny how guys will say yeah they could beat me silly but they just aren’t doing it right!
You can’t do boxing with some Tan Sau’s, Bong Sau’s and WCK concepts and call it Wing Chun. That’s Jeet Kune Do! :) I certainly appreciate the skill and athleticism shown in the video. But it gives me no idea of what his Wing Chun knowledge might be, or if he even does Wing Chun!
It has absolutely nothing to do with wing chun knowledge and everrything to do with skill that comes from the training. You can’t see it because you are not there.
What i would be concerned about is what my Martial Art looked like in the streets or in a war setting . Basics are everything and being able to run the opposite direction from your opponet to .
[QUOTE=KPM;1265298]I like Alan Orr and what he is doing. But watching this clip I would not have thought this was Wing Chun if it wasn’t in the tag line. To me, this is MMA with some WCK concepts included. This is not straight up Wing Chun. [/QUOTE]
KPM, I have to agree. I would not have recognised the WC either. I’ve watched the clips where Alan explains how what he does is WC, and he makes a lot of sense. So since he’s the coach and he can see it, I’ll take his word for that. I just wish I could see a bit more WC in the mix, like when Alan himself demonstrates.
Still, the results are impressive. Kudos to Josh Kaldani, his coach Alan Orr, and to the Iron Wolves.
Here’s the thing you know what wing chun practiced in unrealistic settings looks like as in chi sau and san sau and so forth, and you think this is what it will look like when things get really hot and heavy when going all out in fighting. That viewpoint is not based on experience really doing
Yep, there it is! There’s the mantra again. Thanks Twen!
Why is it do you think that the guys who train wing chun like the Orr team or Obasi or anyone else does not end up looking like how you think they should? Did it ever occur to you that maybe it is because you have unrealistic ideas of what wing chun is and how it works and that maybe guys like Orr simply have a realistic idea that comes from genuine realistic experience? In other words, they are just much more advanced than you?
Did it ever occur to you that it is because they spend a large amount of time training MMA and not straight-up Wing Chun? Why is it that you think the guys that train Wing Chun WOULDN’T be doing any identifiable Wing Chun in a sparring clip? Do you think that the Alan Orr student in that clip is doing anything that you would have recognized as Wing Chun if it hadn’t been named in the tag line? I have all of Alan Orr’s videos. There is good stuff in those videos. When Alan is teaching and demo’ing it looks like Wing Chun! When he is doing Chi Sao it is obviously Wing Chun. So why is it when they take a step back out of Chi Sao range and into a cage it stops looking anything like what Alan was demo’ing or doing in Chi Sao? Shouldn’t it carry over? Why train one way and fight a different way? My answer…? Because they are doing MMA, not Wing Chun! It may be MMA with a Wing Chun “twist”, but it is MMA nonetheless and not Wing Chun. I’m sure you know the old Army adage: “you fight the way you train.” If you spend the majority of the time training for MMA, you are just naturally going to fight like any other MMA fighter. If you spend the majority of the time sparring with whatever works, then you are naturally going to fight with whatever things came up for you that worked with the guys you train with. That won’t be good Wing Chun basics unless you spend the same amount of time or even more time training specifically those Wing Chun basics and work on bringing them out in your sparring. “Training realistically” is not the answer. Realistically training your Wing Chun is what we want, and sparring is NOT the only way to do that.
Don’t get me wrong. Kudos and congrats to Josh and Alan and the rest of the Iron Wolves team! Great job!
It has absolutely nothing to do with wing chun knowledge and everrything to do with skill that comes from the training. You can’t see it because you are not there.
No. It has everything to do with WHICH particular skill you are training. And that particular skill should be based on Wing Chun knowledge. Otherwise why in the heck are you bothering with Wing Chun? Why aren’t you just training MMA, or boxing, or kickboxing??? You can’t see that…well, I’m not sure why. You seem to have this weird fixation on sparring and telling everyone how terrible their Wing Chun is because they don’t “train realistically.”
[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1265331]KPM, I have to agree. I would not have recognised the WC either. I’ve watched the clips where Alan explains how what he does is WC, and he makes a lot of sense. So since he’s the coach and he can see it, I’ll take his word for that. I just wish I could see a bit more WC in the mix, like when Alan himself demonstrates.
Still, the results are impressive. Kudos to Josh Kaldani, his coach Alan Orr, and to the Iron Wolves.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Steve! I agree. Kudos to Josh and the Iron Wolves!!
[QUOTE=LFJ;1265339]I would like to understand how the KO punch was a “Wing Chun punch”.
To me, it is indistinguishable from the same big overhand any MMA guy who’s never done WC would throw.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Sure, Wing Chun has punches that come from various angles. But they are delivered with Wing Chun mechanics. That punch sure looked like a generic overhand punch that any MMA fighter would be throwing.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1265339]I would like to understand how the KO punch was a “Wing Chun punch”.
To me, it is indistinguishable from the same big overhand any MMA guy who’s never done WC would throw.[/QUOTE]
I think Orr has explained this before. This is my explanation not his. Wing chun is not in the form or shape but in the substance. Most people are stuck at the form or shape level of training. The form or shapes are what is taught to beginners as a means to learn the substance but they are not the end. Once we catch on to the substance by practicing the form or shapes we no longer are restricted to form or shapes since we can express the substance without them. You become free form in your actions. The wing chun punch for example involves hitting with your structure or your center in a particular way.
[QUOTE=tc101;1265343]I think Orr has explained this before. This is my explanation not his. Wing chun is not in the form or shape but in the substance. Most people are stuck at the form or shape level of training. The form or shapes are what is taught to beginners as a means to learn the substance but they are not the end. Once we catch on to the substance by practicing the form or shapes we no longer are restricted to form or shapes since we can express the substance without them. You become free form in your actions. The wing chun punch for example involves hitting with your structure or your center in a particular way.[/QUOTE]
If in the end it is indistinguishable from a simple overhand punch from any other system, the training of Wing Chun form or shape and all that first is a waste of time. Why not just train the overhand straight away like other successful fighters in MMA?
[QUOTE=tc101;1265343]I think Orr has explained this before. This is my explanation not his. Wing chun is not in the form or shape but in the substance. Most people are stuck at the form or shape level of training. The form or shapes are what is taught to beginners as a means to learn the substance but they are not the end. Once we catch on to the substance by practicing the form or shapes we no longer are restricted to form or shapes since we can express the substance without them. You become free form in your actions. The wing chun punch for example involves hitting with your structure or your center in a particular way.[/QUOTE]
For others checking in the punch happens at about 7:18. Let’s see… “hitting with your structure or your center in a particular way”…that particular way possibly being using Wing Chun mechanics? Leaning forward, ducking your head and swinging from the shoulder are not typical Wing Chun mechanics as far as I know. Sure didn’t look to me like his punch was connected to his hips in a Wing Chun fashion. And besides…let’s say I work with a friend that is an MMA fighter and simply show him how to throw a hard straight punch down the center that connects to the hip and uses his structure better than the typical rear cross. Is he now “doing Wing Chun” in the ring?
Notice at the beginning of the clip he throws the very same punch that Josh used in the clip that started this thread. But pay attention at about 53 seconds in. Early in his career Vitor was known for straight direct punching. Watch him charge in and overwhelm his opponent with what is essentially Wing Chun chain punching. To me, THIS looks more like Wing Chun than the clip at the beginning of this thread. Should we claim Vitor as an example of Wing Chun’s success in MMA? Is Vitor doing Wing Chun? Or is Vitor doing good MMA that just happens to occasionally incorporate some Wing Chun concepts?
[QUOTE=LFJ;1265346]If in the end it is indistinguishable from a simple overhand punch from any other system, the training of Wing Chun form or shape and all that first is a waste of time. Why not just train the overhand straight away like other successful fighters in MMA?[/QUOTE]
Many arts have similar let me emphasize similar tools. Fighting is in the end going to look like fighting. Wing chun is just a way to train for it and to approach it.
Here’s the thing you have guys like the Orr group or Obasi and so forth that are wing chun trained there is no doubt about that. They all know the forms can do the drills and so forth. Yet what we see again and again is these guys who take the next step and don’t just keep playing forms and drills but train to fight and do fight end up not looking like the form/drill guys think they should. What we never see is any wing chun people really fighting looking like what the form/drill guys think they should. Why is that? Orr has already explained it. I explained it. I think people do not want to accept that explanation because to admit it would mean that being at the form/drill level is only the first stage of wing chun.
One of the things I find hard to believe about so many in wing chun is that they gauge their wing chun on what they think they know or think they understand and not what they can do. This is why they keep talking about knowledge or understanding and not skill or performance. The form/drill guys know how wing chun should be and they understand it better than anyone it’s just that they cannot do any of it.
What you have are guys who cannot do it who would get beaten silly by Orr or Obasi telling us these guys who would destroy them are doing it all wrong. Stop and think about that. Guys who can’t do it and can’t point to anyone who can do it like they think it should be done think they know - there is that word again - better than they guys really doing it how things should work. Their excuse is well well yeah they can beat me but that’s not wing chun. They say that because their perspective is from the form/drill stage where they see wing chun as fixed dance steps. Not wing chun? No it is just they cannot understand that the fixed dance steps cannot be for the most part used or fit into fighting but the movement, the connections, the ability to handle pressure, generate power and so forth what I learned was the substance behind the forms/drills can be used in fighting.
KPM does not see that what forces you to see this is the realistic training. That is why guys who do that training like Orr and Obasi and the other guys really fighting get it and he doesn’t.
Fighting looks like fighting. Gong Fu is a method of developing a particular skill…all respect to Sifu Orr and his team for bringing their Gong Fu training into a real and live environment. They are a light in a dark and shameful world.
I certainly appreciate the skill and athleticism shown in the video. But it gives me no idea of what his Wing Chun knowledge might be, or if he even does Wing Chun!