[QUOTE=paulcaz;1265261]Nice to see the concepts and attributes of wing chun being applied in MMA. This is something I am exploring in own training at the moment. My fear is that many wing chun people will not appreciate the video because they are constrained with what wing chun should look like in a fight rather than what it can achieve.
I think we have all seen the videos on YouTube of wing chun exponents being made to look silly and their art failing them. Time to move forward whilst embracing the past but not to be defined by it.[/QUOTE]
Many thanks, yes your right. Many have the idea that if it works in MMA it can’t be Wing Chun. It’s funny. so we can’t worry about people like that.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1265265]Well, I can appreciate the theory Alan covers in his clips. He seems to be one of the few who understands the difference between training form and the abstract nature of the application of Wing Chun, as well as how to bridge the two.
That said however, a big overhand thrown by a guy who trains WC doesn’t make it a “Wing Chun punch”. It’s indistinguishable from the same punch any other MMA fighter who’s never trained WC would throw, and is not an “angle of punch” in any WC lineage I’m familiar with.
At the end of the day, it got the job done. So whatever. Call it whatever pleases you.[/QUOTE]
We have many punches in the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun system. This is pure application of our structural power and timing. This is our reeling punch. I may put up a clip on my you tube channel showing this punch.
[QUOTE=KPM;1265298]I like Alan Orr and what he is doing. But watching this clip I would not have thought this was Wing Chun if it wasn’t in the tag line. To me, this is MMA with some WCK concepts included. This is not straight up Wing Chun. Wing Chun looks like Wing Chun because that is what it is. You can’t do boxing with some Tan Sau’s, Bong Sau’s and WCK concepts and call it Wing Chun. That’s Jeet Kune Do! :) I certainly appreciate the skill and athleticism shown in the video. But it gives me no idea of what his Wing Chun knowledge might be, or if he even does Wing Chun![/QUOTE]
Going by your post you don’t understand Wing Chun or JKD lol or MMA in fact!
MMA = mixed martial arts.
Straight up Wing Chun? WTF is that lol Wing Chun is not a limited style. I know we see lots of basic drill based Wing Chun around. But that;s not Wing Chun.
The training forms, drill, chi sao, sparring. The application is a fight.
In a fight you use the skills you gain from the training. Balance, timing, position control, power and much more.
You say -
But it gives me no idea of what his Wing Chun knowledge might be, or if he even does Wing Chun
It is a fight its not an instruction tape. If you can’t see the weight placement to gain power. The hip and center control then you can’t see the deeper layers of Wing Chun skills.
[QUOTE=tc101;1265313]Here’s the thing you know what wing chun practiced in unrealistic settings looks like as in chi sau and san sau and so forth, and you think this is what it will look like when things get really hot and heavy when going all out in fighting. That viewpoint is not based on experience really doing that or even seeing it done like that since you cannot point me to anyone who is able to do it like you think it should be done. Why is it do you think that the guys who train wing chun like the Orr team or Obasi or anyone else does not end up looking like how you think they should? Did it ever occur to you that maybe it is because you have unrealistic ideas of what wing chun is and how it works and that maybe guys like Orr simply have a realistic idea that comes from genuine realistic experience? In other words, they are just much more advanced than you?
It is howling funny how guys will say yeah they could beat me silly but they just aren’t doing it right!
It has absolutely nothing to do with wing chun knowledge and everrything to do with skill that comes from the training. You can’t see it because you are not there.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=tc101;1265372]KPM does not see that what forces you to see this is the realistic training. That is why guys who do that training like Orr and Obasi and the other guys really fighting get it and he doesn’t.[/QUOTE]
I find it interesting and bit boring that you just keep repeating your mantra and don’t even try to acknowledge or counter the points I have made.
[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1265331]KPM, I have to agree. I would not have recognised the WC either. I’ve watched the clips where Alan explains how what he does is WC, and he makes a lot of sense. So since he’s the coach and he can see it, I’ll take his word for that. I just wish I could see a bit more WC in the mix, like when Alan himself demonstrates.
Still, the results are impressive. Kudos to Josh Kaldani, his coach Alan Orr, and to the Iron Wolves.[/QUOTE]
What is wing chun? training and application look different.
[QUOTE=LFJ;1265346]If in the end it is indistinguishable from a simple overhand punch from any other system, the training of Wing Chun form or shape and all that first is a waste of time. Why not just train the overhand straight away like other successful fighters in MMA?[/QUOTE]
In Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun we train our structure and center so we can punch with power and not lose base. A lot of boxing punches have a higher center of balance, which means they can lose balance. This is one of the many many reason we are punching differently from normal boxing. We train a chinese boxing system. I can’t see why people on a wing chun forum are unhappy to see our wing chun working.
[QUOTE=Alan Orr;1265377]Going by your post you don’t understand Wing Chun or JKD lol or MMA in fact!
MMA = mixed martial arts.
Straight up Wing Chun? WTF is that lol Wing Chun is not a limited style. I know we see lots of basic drill based Wing Chun around. But that;s not Wing Chun.
The training forms, drill, chi sao, sparring. The application is a fight.
In a fight you use the skills you gain from the training. Balance, timing, position control, power and much more.
You say -
But it gives me no idea of what his Wing Chun knowledge might be, or if he even does Wing Chun
It is a fight its not an instruction tape. If you can’t see the weight placement to gain power. The hip and center control then you can’t see the deeper layers of Wing Chun skills.[/QUOTE]
I never said Wing Chun was limited. Let me ask you this Alan. If you took one your students or of Robert’s students that has never done any MMA specific training or even sparred with MMA guys and threw him in the cage for a bout at an event…would he look anything like Josh did in that clip? I still say that was MMA with some Wing Chun concepts included. And there is nothing wrong with that. Was Vitor doing Wing Chun in the clip I posted? I agree that the training develops skills. But then why does it look nothing like the training when expressed in the cage? You fight the way you train. So I maintain that what we are actually seeing in these clips is a result of MMA training more than it is the Wing Chun training. That’s what I mean by “straight up” Wing Chun. The average guy training Wing Chun today is NOT going look like your guys if he ever had to fight. That is because your guys do a heck of a lot of MMA training in addition to any Wing Chun training. You fight the way you train. Many Wing Chun people are guilty of not taking their Wing Chun training to a more realistic level. But one doesn’t have to train MMA to do that.
And you agree with Twen/tc101 that it has nothing to do with Wing Chun knowledge? Doesn’t Wing Chun knowledge equate to Wing Chun training? So you could throw out the “Wing Chun knowledge” that you are imparting to your students and just do the MMA training and they would be just as successful?
Notice at the beginning of the clip he throws the very same punch that Josh used in the clip that started this thread. But pay attention at about 53 seconds in. Early in his career Vitor was known for straight direct punching. Watch him charge in and overwhelm his opponent with what is essentially Wing Chun chain punching. To me, THIS looks more like Wing Chun than the clip at the beginning of this thread. Should we claim Vitor as an example of Wing Chun’s success in MMA? Is Vitor doing Wing Chun? Or is Vitor doing good MMA that just happens to occasionally incorporate some Wing Chun concepts?[/QUOTE]
I have trained with Vitor as he is a friend of my BJJ teacher. He wasn’t doing Wing Chun and has never said anything different - he just fired a one two repeated and charged. So that is a pointless reference. On the other hand Josh does train Wing Chun - Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and we did train to land that punch. All my MMA fighters train CSL Wing Chun - is that clear for you? I am bored of explaining that just because you have a limited insight to what we do - it does not mean we do.
If, I think, maybe, could be, - all BS. You don’t know so what are you adding?
We have a system which is tested in very way. We know what we can do and why we do it. That is why we have such a strong team of fighters. My UK guys have done very well, I have been in NZ a year and already we have a very strong Team. This because I teach a system. It is not lucky concepts or a mix of ideas.
We know what we are doing. Our Wing Chun is very different to others, I know as after 27 years in Wing Chun I have checked out many styles and teachers. I am very very clear on my art.
[QUOTE=KPM;1265382]
And you agree with Twen/tc101 that it has nothing to do with Wing Chun knowledge? Doesn’t Wing Chun knowledge equate to Wing Chun training? So you could throw out the “Wing Chun knowledge” that you are imparting to your students and just do the MMA training and they would be just as successful?[/QUOTE]
No no no no not it is not about knowledge it is about learning and developing skills. Skills. Change your thinking to what skills do I have, what skills have I learned, and so on instead of knowledge. You see there is two types of knowledge, unrealistic knowledge and realistic knowledge. Realistic knowledge comes from experience actually doing the skills. Unrealistic knowledge comes from not doing the skills.
Now without a tag line identifying it, I doubt anyone would recognize this video as Wing Chun.
We train skills then we punch and kick people. The skill of when, why and how is in the training. The training is not fighting.
This is true. But if when you are fighting you are going to look like a boxer (as in the clip above), why not just train boxing? If the delivery system for your punches and kicks when fighting doesn’t look much like the delivery system you used when training for punching and kicking, then one has to wonder about the training. You fight the way you train. If you are going to use a boxing structure when sparring and call it Wing Chun, then we should be seeing the same structure when you do your drills or Wing Chun forms. Shouldn’t we? Why train one way and fight another?
Now don’t get me wrong Alan. There is nothing wrong with what you guys are doing. But I would call it MMA with Wing Chun concepts, not Wing Chun.
[QUOTE=KPM;1265382]I never said Wing Chun was limited. Let me ask you this Alan. If you took one your students or of Robert’s students that has never done any MMA specific training or even sparred with MMA guys and threw him in the cage for a bout at an event…would he look anything like Josh did in that clip? I still say that was MMA with some Wing Chun concepts included. And there is nothing wrong with that. Was Vitor doing Wing Chun in the clip I posted? I agree that the training develops skills. But then why does it look nothing like the training when expressed in the cage? You fight the way you train. So I maintain that what we are actually seeing in these clips is a result of MMA training more than it is the Wing Chun training. That’s what I mean by “straight up” Wing Chun. The average guy training Wing Chun today is NOT going look like your guys if he ever had to fight. That is because your guys do a heck of a lot of MMA training in addition to any Wing Chun training. You fight the way you train. Many Wing Chun people are guilty of not taking their Wing Chun training to a more realistic level. But one doesn’t have to train MMA to do that.
And you agree with Twen/tc101 that it has nothing to do with Wing Chun knowledge? Doesn’t Wing Chun knowledge equate to Wing Chun training? So you could throw out the “Wing Chun knowledge” that you are imparting to your students and just do the MMA training and they would be just as successful?[/QUOTE]
More if and buts. When Josh trained for his fight he was sparring with all my guys. Fighters and just class based guys. Everyone I teach learns and trains the same system. We are not the average wing chun guys as we train as fighters. It doesn’t mean you have to fight or do MMA. I have guys that never want to fight and are just as good as Josh, I have guys better than some of my fighters. I have fighters that only what to train wing chun and boxing, wing chun to use in K1.
We train the classical training. Forms, drills Chi Sao, sparring. We apply that to the problem given - the street - mma- boxing K1 etc
Not all wing chun is the same, that is true. Not all wing chun will work in the cage and some not even on the street. That has nothing to do with me.
I don’t understand why on this forum some people always what to say - you guys do well but it can’t be wing chun lol
My students are successful due to - CHU SAU LEI WING CHUN is that clear for you?
Normal Chi Sao to Clinch to Ground - This one is old 2008 - I’m now a BJJ Black Belt so my grappling has improved. Oh Neil in The video is my PRO MMA fighter 5-1-0 ( 1 Was to knee injury). He is super tough.
Now without a tag line identifying it, I doubt anyone would recognize this video as Wing Chun.
We train skills then we punch and kick people. The skill of when, why and how is in the training. The training is not fighting.
This is true. But if when you are fighting you are going to look like a boxer (as in the clip above), why not just train boxing? If the delivery system for your punches and kicks when fighting doesn’t look much like the delivery system you used when training for punching and kicking, then one has to wonder about the training. You fight the way you train. If you are going to use a boxing structure when sparring and call it Wing Chun, then we should be seeing the same structure when you do your drills or Wing Chun forms. Shouldn’t we? Why train one way and fight another?
Now don’t get me wrong Alan. There is nothing wrong with what you guys are doing. But I would call it MMA with Wing Chun concepts, not Wing Chun.[/QUOTE]
I know there is nothing wrong with what we are doing in MMA LOL, But thanks for telling me.
Why not train boxing? - Hello, I have said so many times. We train Chinese Boxing - Wing Chun Kuen. All our skills which you can’t seem to see (not my fault or problem) are the reason why we have success in MMA. Of course Wing Chun on the street will be different in terms of use of tools, but core skills are the same. The power develop and structure is the same.
We do not train western boxing as we punch differently as we train Wing Chun. Our fist position, our hip and feet our angles, our timing, our should control. So many things. I have many students that train western boxing before coming to me. The first thing they say is wow this is so different. Is that clear enough for you?
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1265373]Fighting looks like fighting. Gong Fu is a method of developing a particular skill…all respect to Sifu Orr and his team for bringing their Gong Fu training into a real and live environment. They are a light in a dark and shameful world.[/QUOTE]
I have trained with Vitor as he is a friend of my BJJ teacher. He wasn’t doing Wing Chun and has never said anything different - he just fired a one two repeated and charged. So that is a pointless reference.
No it is not a pointless reference. My point was that Vitor did something that was more recognizable as Wing Chun than what Josh did yet no one claims that he was “doing Wing Chun” in the cage!
On the other hand Josh does train Wing Chun - Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and we did train to land that punch. All my MMA fighters train CSL Wing Chun - is that clear for you?
Of course its clear to me! Its also very clear to me that they train MMA as well. What we see in the cage is more a result of MMA training than Wing Chun training. Otherwise anyone training Wing Chun WITHOUT the MMA training should be able to step in there and look the same, shouldn’t they?
I am bored of explaining that just because you have a limited insight to what we do - it does not mean we do.
I know what you are doing and admire it. I just don’t think it is all Wing Chun, that’s all. To show one of your guys winning is great! Congrats! To call it a success attributed to Wing Chun when he wins with a punch exactly like Vitor what uses in the clip I posted is just a little off.
If, I think, maybe, could be, - all BS. You don’t know so what are you adding?
Adding to what? I’m just expressing my opinion.
We know what we are doing. Our Wing Chun is very different to others.
Could that be because it is Wing Chun adapted to a MMA format? Could that be because you include lots of MMA training? My point is that if you are labeling clips as “Wing Chun” that look nothing like Wing Chun, the non-Wing Chun person is going to think “what’s he talking about? That looks just like any other MMA fighter!” That doesn’t really help our cause or image to the rest of the martial arts world because they will just think Wing Chun is a joke and trying to pose as MMA. I think it would be better to talk about how Wing Chun concepts and training has enhanced your MMA. And if the average Joe sees your MMA/sparring clips labeled as Wing Chun, and then walks into just about any Wing Chun school in the world other than yours looking for the same thing…he’s going to be a bit disappointed.
I know there is nothing wrong with what we are doing in MMA LOL, But thanks for telling me.
Look Alan. I’m not your enemy. I was giving you props. No need for the sarcasm.
Of course Wing Chun on the street will be different in terms of use of tools, but core skills are the same. The power develop and structure is the same.
Well, here is a key point…“Wing Chun on the street”…which I am assuming you mean “as opposed to Wing Chun for MMA.” Which could easily be seen as…Wing Chun the way is was originally designed…as opposed to Wing Chun adapted to MMA. At least that’s how I see it. But that’s just my opinion.
[QUOTE=Alan Orr;1265380]training and application look different.[/QUOTE]
Playing devil’s advocate… would you say the same thing about a boxer or a BJJ practitioner’s training? Does their training, in your opinion, look different to their application?
[QUOTE=Alan Orr;1265381]I can’t see why people on a wing chun forum are unhappy to see our wing chun working.[/QUOTE]
Well, I am not one of those people. I understand the abstract nature of Wing Chun in application. You explain it well in your many clips, all of which I pretty well agree with. Are you aware of any other WC lineage that uses this punch though? I am not, but my experience is not as broad.
Again, just so anyone reading is clear! I admire what Alan and his guys have accomplished in the cage! They are hardcore and a good example to all! But I see what they are doing as either Wing Chun adapted for MMA, or MMA with solid Wing Chun concepts included. And there is nothing wrong with that! Wing Chun is not limited, it is adaptable. What I disagree with is labeling clips as Wing Chun that look nothing like “typical”, or “straight up” Wing Chun and look exactly like the typical MMA that everyone else is doing. Overall I don’t think this is actually good for Wing Chun’s image for the reason I noted above. This would be like an MMA fighter with a TKD background landing a knock out roundhouse kick to the head and labeling the clip as an example of the success of TKD in the cage. Well, don’t most other MMA fighters know how to do a roundhouse kick whether they studied TKD or not? Was their something unique about that roundhouse kick that made it instantly recognizable as TKD? Probably not. But if the fighter had landed a knock out capoeira kick to the head that no one other than capoeira fighters were using…THEN one could say that was an example of capoeira’s success in the cage!
[QUOTE=BPWT..;1265393]Playing devil’s advocate… would you say the same thing about a boxer or a BJJ practitioner’s training? Does their training, in your opinion, look different to their application?[/QUOTE]
Yes they do. Im boxing you use a speed ball, focus pads etc. You do not take them in the ring. Wing Chun forms and drills are training skills - timing speed positioning.
BJJ - Training has many levels. As it is a sport art it is closer to normal training. But comps add a lot of strength and power. You can train BJJ without that.
I certainly appreciate the skill and athleticism shown in the video. But it gives me no idea of what his Wing Chun knowledge might be, or if he even does Wing Chun![/QUOTE]