Ao Qin
I think sifu was referring to the first three forms that are played in YKM. Which are Tung Jee, Sup Jee, and Ying Ching. From what I’ve seen, there is no raising the index figure (like in hung) in any of our forms.
Take care,
Buby
AO QIN
Hi,
Nope thats not ykm, i have this vcd too! I was pretty suprised at the quality of the demo, but it is china pak mei or guangzhou somewhere in china. I have seen the 1 finger salute off a few pak mei schools, i dont think its the hung connection or it maybe the shaolin connection or i have been told its an arogant way to say they are number one!
The stances were longer and wushuish as well. It was a mixture of 9 step push, 5 animals, ying jow lin quil, and a little sup batt mor mix together.
I have the dragon vcd and thats alot better!
Ykm has the hung gar in levels 1,2,3 like buby said to give us a external power and focus, plus good rooting skills. Dynalmic tension and iron body training is our 3rd level ying ching, and developes short power, and dip gwut rib power.
hope that helps.
take care
Garry FT
Hi Ao Qin
That form on the VCD is more like Ying Jow Lim Kiu than Gao Bo Tyui coupled with other forms. They also didn’t use the conventional “5 lakes 4 oceans” salute instead they use what they label as “one stick of incent towards the sky” as salute which might be a Wushu tourament adaptation. There is a heavy WuShu feel to this form (whatever that is). Fancy high kicks (that is but one low side kick and another low back kick in 9 step push) with over extended movements are Wushu favorite not real Kung Fu. The performance in the VCD didn’t give the impression that Bak Mei is a system of power rather it protrayed Bak Mei as a system of form that has over extraggerated structural problem. Personally, I don’t find it a good representation on what Bak Mei is. IMHO, there is a serious breach of style integrity in this form.
Regards
Mantis108
Mantis 108
The fighting applications were twice as bad!
What did you think of the power?
cheers
garry
That VCD
It was interesting, but it looked like a performance piece. I’ll agree with Mantis and FT.
One thing I noted, was that either by design or by omission, there were a number of techniques “glossed over” or “hidden” in the execution.
It did remind me of Ying Jao Lin Que in spirit though, but there were bits of Gau Bo Twi, Ng Ying, etc popped in. Oh yea, and a bit of Tae Kwon Do…
Kei Lun,
You demonstrate some insight into Pak Mei, may I ask where it comes from?
EAZ,
My experience is that the Vietnamese branch is very rich. I’m sure you’ll agree. Something like 5 generations in Vietnam already?
The Gings:
I wonder, perhaps the discussion of Tremor Ging and Elastic Ging would be served by going back to the original chinese and examining the translation of the term? Perhaps that may introduce some more clues?
Sifu says the tendons in your arms and shoulders should stretch, snap out and back. This is an elastic effect, and it takes time to train. Could this fit into the formulae?
I’ve heard tremor ging is like a spasm of attacks, 2,3,4,5 or watever consecutive attacks from the same “issuance” can we say? Perhaps it starts with Mam Fu? I don’t understand totally… Too fancy for a “Kau La, Sak Choi” donkey like me. 
yum cha
Totally agree, for the strikes the tendons and sinews have to be elastic or springy , they stretch out and spring back. Well this is what ive been told but i think most people try too hard with the hum hung baat boy and over extend and not looking at the shoulder rotations for power as well just leaning forwards.
does that make any sense? lol:)
In the VCD…
Hi FT,
I think your comment on his performance is fair. With his footwork and waist (or lack there of) , there are only the arms left. Note that he tends to “push” his strikes out with arm strength only. That to me indicates a problem of rooting. You are also right about elasticity of the tendons and sinews. IMHO the way that he has developed is only suitable for a striking style not a well rounded style. That means he has limited tools available to him. Note the extremely lacking of Chin Na techniques in his applications. [But then he might be saving them] ;). I know someone is going to argue that Bak Mei is a striking style - no more no less but I bag to differ. I believe Bak Mei is a system of power that has a unique delivery protocol which is capable of Da, Ti, Na, and Shuai. The VCD would have been a great venue to showcase what Bak Mei is truely capable of but it falls way short on the delivery. Perhaps they were really preoccupied with a performing art rather than a fighting art.
Regards
Mantis108
PS You are also right about the Lung Ying VCD is better in every way.
Re: That VCD
Originally posted by Yum Cha
EAZ,
My experience is that the Vietnamese branch is very rich. I’m sure you’ll agree. Something like 5 generations in Vietnam already?
All I am saying is that their is evidence for the existence of all forms practiced in Tang Hue Bac lineage that goes back to the early years of Tang Hue Bac. The relatively larger number of forms is NOT due to additions after him (bar one or two exceptions that are well documented).
Furthermore, there have been as I said at least one other branch of Pm in Vietnam completely independent of CLC lineage that comes froma monk who apparently passed away in 1985 at a rather ripe age.
Regarding “one finger salute”, my sifu told me last night that this salute used to belong to highest level forms only after Mang Fu but in Guangdong some people democratised it for lower level forms. He also said that it indeed means something like we are n°1 Already as you all know beginning saute have knees bent and 3 direction salute and later forms salute is done standing and slowly with only eyes looking to right and left. So I suppose one finger version came after this. Since few people even practice these higher level forms, that is why it has fallen out of current PM practices.
eaz
Thats what i said about the one finger salute!
Fiercest Tiger:
Well I have to say you have given a more hospitable response than I thought, thank you. I must say it is a shame though, I would think to be under CLC would be something to be quite proud of. Actually, in the GuangJau Bak Mei group, we most all concider HHH to be the top student of CLC. But you are right in saying that ultimately the decision is in the hands of Ha Kwok Cheung.
As for you have never seen the power I spoke of, well, its not because Bak Mei doesnft have it, its just because so few can do it. But actually I have always been impressed by YKM and enjoyed what they do, I find it closer to GuangJau Bak Mei than HK Bak Mei.
EAZ:
I didnft mean to make a judgement on the Vietnam school, I donft know enough about them to do so. But your right, all schools have different curriculums. The HK school under Cheung Bing Lum lists on their site all the forms of Bak Mei. My linefs curriculum is a bit different than theirs still. Who knows eh.
But just for my information, who brought Bak Mei to Vietnam? Was it just one guy?
Ao Qin:
The VCD of Gau Bo Toei was performed by a student of Kwan Kwok Fai, who studied from both CLC and HHH. That performer was originally a Hung Ga stylist, he learned from Kwan Kwon Fai when he was in his mid-80fs (now he is 91 and still performs). But the form he did we call Lok Ging Gau Bo Toei, 6 power 9 step push. There was an article on this form in Wulin magazine about 4 years ago by Siu Ting Fun, the current Grandmaster of the GuangDong Bak Mei group. The form is correct but unfortunately his performance looks like hung ga, his teacher was too old to do proper stances so he just substituted from his former training, and just could not be thought of as Bak Mei.
Yum Cha:
My insight on Bak Mei? Well I studied it for a long time, in China and Hong Kong. I live in Asia so I often go to GuangJau to help with the Association there and support their events. There, all the Bak Mei people, regardless of line, get together often and keep quite close. We just hosted a meeting for the HK Bak Mei Lai Cheung Assoc., the whole group got together and Cheung Bing Lum came too. So I keep in touch with my Bak Mei family a lot.
Hideous:
Thank you!
Kei Lun
Kei Lun - Hideous: Thank you!
You are most assuredly, and deservingly, welcome, honey pot man.
Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous
Kei lun
Why did you think i would flip out over the question you asked? Maybe in the past as fierce tiger ..lol but im a bit over all the Bullshiet that comes with my school and style is the best, so basically i just shut up and teach and train! Hopefully the proof is in the pudding as they say.
Thanks for the thread at least i brought to attention why YKM does things like this and that! You have some good knowledge and i hope one day to meet up and talk and show the tremor type of ging. Like i said ive never seen one tremor ging only springy type (Tarn ging)if thats the way to say it and spell it? Ive been to guangzhou 3 times now and have trained with a few guys that come from HHH. It has a dragon flavor to it as well, do you think the guangzhou bak mei have a dragon flavour?
Can you tell me why the vcd was called luk ging gau boy tau? Doesnt every move in pak mei use luk ging anyway? Also one more question regarding tremor, What does this do to a person why you hit them that other gings dont do?
thanks and many respects
FT Garry:)
Kei Lun
Hello, thanks for the glimpse into your background.
Its nice to know somebody visits our website, as well.
I have to admit to feeling a bit sandbagged though <grin>, as I am prone to guess that you may know the school where my Sifu came from, and that you may even know about him… Siu Ting Fun is whom our Sifu claims alliegence to.
You can check the pictures from Guangzhou on our website if you haven’t already. You probably know of our Si Gung, Leung Sui Hoy as well.
News from the “old school” would be greatly appreciated…
Thanks for the details on the VCD, one of the great mysterys of pak mei video-dom has apparently been solved.
EAZ
Did I understand you correctly when you said the single finger salute was only used for the advanced patterns, the ones after Mam Fu?
I hope I haven’t said anything offensive, I admire your line unreservedly.
Your Sifu is in town now? Did he bring you any presents? <grin>
You never answered my question about German or French.
FT
G’day matey. Getting chilly in the park…brrrrrr.
cold as a mutha
we usually train 3 mornings a week at 8 am!
take it easy
Garry
one finger salute
I have heard about the one finger salute. Its just like the 5 lakes 4 seas salute except that the right hand is a one finger pointing up formation. I understand that it can be used in any level Pak Mei forms but its usually used by senior sifus during demonstations. It signifies something like “I alone am tops…”
Cannon fist
that would make it one lake and no sea’s …heheheh lol;)
Re: Kei Lun
Originally posted by Yum Cha
[B]EAZ
Did I understand you correctly when you said the single finger salute was only used for the advanced patterns, the ones after Mam Fu?
I hope I haven’t said anything offensive, I admire your line unreservedly.
Your Sifu is in town now? Did he bring you any presents? <grin>
You never answered my question about German or French.
FT
G’day matey. Getting chilly in the park…brrrrrr. [/B]
-
Yes single finger = advanced forms (which few people in PM seem to practice anymore (I do not know them myself)
-
Absolutely nothing offensive in your quotes, no worries, same with Kei lun.
-
Sifu alterantes carrot and stick with dizzying spped throughing me into doubt, delight, desperation and outright mental fatigue in the end. Most satisfying.
-
I am Anglo-French but do speak a little German becuase of family origins (grand parent).
All the best and I wish you guys in Australia were’nt on the opposite side of the world from me.
EAZ
Fiercest Tiger:
Why did I think you would flip out? Its just hard to judge someonefs tone through text, just look at Hideous there having a hissy-fit over my each word. I can hear his next response to this now.
Who did you train with in Guang Jau? I donft think GuangJau Bak Mei has a dragon flavor, its just that most of them do practice dragon as well, just as YKM does. But most whom Ive met do try to keep it separate, just an opinion.
Its true all the forms do have glok gingh, I guess this is just for a flashy name, sounds good though donft it.
The power of tremor and the power of shock to an opponent? Hmmm, I see what your getting atc tell me if Ifm right. I suppose you could say that the shock power is for penetration (single/multiple strikes), and tremor power is more of a repulsive force (a push, or good to get out of kum-la situations)! Hard to verbalize, but howfs that?
Yum Cha:
Yes, I know. I did like your website, I was interested when I saw the GuangJau Pak Mei banner, as we have the same one in our school. Ask your Sifu if he knows the gHop Geng Do/He Jing Dao Associationh under Lau Cheun (Siu Ting Funfs predecessor).
Oh yeah, the normal salute, of the palm and the fist is called glau yip jeungh - willow leaf palm, and the one finger salute is called gyat ji heungh - stick of incense. It represents the higher level forms in Bak Mei, by meaning that you are becoming skilled and knowledgeable, that you are beginning to gstand aloneh. I believe for most schools Gau Bo Toei is the first form to start with this. Later its found in Sup Baat Moh Kiu, Man Foo Cheut Lum, Dei Sat, Jeui Hut Yee, etc. Do the HK schools practice this as well?
Kei Lun
- Kung Fu is Kung Fu, its not childs play! Lei Siu Lung
Hey Kei Lun
YES! Tones over the internet can be easily misjudged well especially me, i type the way i speak and half the time i dont mean it to sound rude, but it does!
Your breakdown of the tremor is ok i suppose, but what do i know, i havent seen it of felt it! As for kum la it can be countered with kum la or any other fighting range. To me shock power is the understanding of Fear and the power of subconscous re action, like someone burning you with a cigarette when your not ready and you react without thinking and hit the persons hand away. The springy or elastic type of power is the training through 2 man drills and special equipment so you tendons and sinews are strong and flexibly. So i really dont know the tremor ging methods, maybe i do but untill i see it i may understand what it is?
In guangzhou the students of HHH did and maybe still do dragon forms, in australia myself and my sihings do what was taught to us from our master LEUNG CHEUNG! The only form i see as dragon is the ying jow lin quil which was taken from lung ying mor kuil i was told. Doesnt look anything like it, it does have some moves though that look like some dragon strikes.
What is single force used for?
what was double force used for?
regards
FT:)
Conseptualizing ging
Hi F.t,
Wouldn’t you say that the different types of ging is acheived in stages of development?
To start you would practice faat ging, then on to shock power ging and then to the tremor ging.
To me they are part and parcel of the same thing once you get tremor ging your faat, shock power should improve.
This is only my opinion. I have heard of this tremor ging and kum-la techniques cannot be used. Once contact is made the opponents strucure is lost straight away because of the intensity of the tremor but it is done naturally without thought.