Bak Mei Yau Kung Mun

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

I was wondering why Yau Kung Mun denies that they are Bak Mei Kung Fu? Ha Hon Hum was one of the top students of Cheung Lai Cheun in GuangJau. In GuangJau Ha Hon Hum taught Bak Mei for a long time. There are still many lines of Bak Mei that continue from him.
http://www.aaron.net.au/pak_mei/master.html
Last year Ha Kwok Cheung came to GuangJau and he performed at the Bak Mei gathering, it seemed that it was the first time that they gadmitted ith. Now, I have seen the Yau Kung Mun school and their curriculum.
http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm/lineage_chart.htm
All their forms are Bak Mei, the same names and the same movements. http://home.iprimus.com.au/ykm/external_hand_forms.htm@However they leave out CLC in their lineage. I have been told that its because they include internal elements, from HHHfs other teacher monk Tit Yan, that are not found in Bak Mei so they changed the name. Well, Bak Mei is an internal system, having the softness of TaiJi and the explosiveness of Hsing Yi, and even has its own Chi Kung. The kung fu practiced in YKM is Bak Mei!
Of course they practice a touch differently from Bak Mei, but so do all schools in Bak Mei, the differences arenft an issue. The issue is why doesnft YKM, a system made up almost entirely of Bak Mei, recognize that they did infact came from Bak Mei through the teachings of CLC?

Kei Lun

2

Kei lun

Our grandmaster did leave CLC and created yau kung mun from the monk Tit Yun. In guangzhou his studenst still call bak mei yau kung mun and trace there lineage to clc.

Our forms in the beginning are indeed bak mei and hung gar, but our high internal sets are yau kung supp baat serng toy jeunrg, all soft slow moving meditations taught to great grandmaster har from the monk tit yun. I myself consider the bak mei as external with some internal elements, but the ykm internal is purely internal. We always say we are bak mei but most bak mei say ykm arent! In hongkong yau kung mun is ykm and has made a very good name, i know grandmaster ha does go to guangzhou to the bak mei invitations and there isnt any beef between the old masters that i know. Its the new generation that has the beef for some reason with ykm, but its all good! Yum cha’s lineage traces its pak mei to great grandmaster ha but its called guangzhou bak mei, ykm has a new name and ciriculum added from the monk and g/masters hung gar/clf training in the past.

hope this helps!:slight_smile:

garry

3

I forgot!

There has been many stories of the ykm grandmaster after leaving his sifu(clc), so i guess this also could be a reason why there is no connection of clc in the lineage charts!

just my thoughts

garry:)

4

one more question

what did grandmaster ha perform in guangzhou?

cheers
Garry FT

5

It kicks ass all the same!

6

yau kung supp baat serng toy jeunrg

Hi Fiercest Tiger,
Is “yau kung supp baat serng toy jeunrg” a meditation or a slow tai-chi-like set ?

Please let me know.

Cheers

Buddhapalm

7

rolling elbow

Hi,

Well said my brother! Does it really matter what name it is, as long as its effective and has its on healing right?! :slight_smile:

Buddha palm,

yes its slow like tai chi, but it isnt if it makes any sense!

later
Garry FT:)

8

FT

Hi Fiercest Tiger,
Thanks for your reply. The reason why I ask is that there is a form in my school called Dai Fut Jeung. My KF Uncle told me that our Sigung claimed it was a set from Bak Mei style and was rare. I have contacted Bak Mei people, but they do not think so. So perhaps it may be somewhat relatd to YKM.

The set is all palms, slaps, pokes, chops.

Opens :

  • left hook hand, right palm forward (bow arrow stance)
  • step back into cat, right hand circle block and left forward palm
  • turn to right and left hand slap
  • step, right hand inward slap
  • step, left hand inward slap…

Does it sound at all similar ?

Cheers

Buddhapalm

9

buddha palm

Hi Mate,

Nah! Kinda but not quite, can you please email me privately about this info of your uncle, i will share more with you on this!

talk later
Garry FT;)

10

Elastic force

In Vietnamese lineage of Pei Mei (Tsang Wai Bok and others)), their is a high level form, way after Tiger exits forest, called "Elastic power " that is performed in the way you mention that is perfored in Tai Chi like slow/fast fashion. It comes after 5 elements form. There is also another form called “Luc kinh Cam Ma” in vietnamese, or “Magical trembling power …”

The description above sounds like another form called Long Mon Buc Da which means Oppressive bridge at the Dragon Gate. (Nothing to do with Long hinh ma kieu, the Dragon form imported into certain Bak Mei schools). That is the slaps are downward motions as you step forward…

Hope this is of interest.

11

Eaz

Dear Eaz,
Your descriptions of the other forms sound interesting. Is it possible to know more about the sets that sound similar to what I describe.

The forward stepping wave hands are alternate hand slaps go up and down with each step, they are blocks I think followed by a palm to face. Lots of side slaps inwardly.

My Grandmaster/Sigung would have learned this in Toisan/Canton probably between 1915 and 1950 I would guess.

I can be reached also at teleka@pacbell.net

Cheers

Buddhapalm

12

I knwo next to nothing about the fors “elastic power” and “trembling hand”, the latter simply the final ersult of Pei Mei training with many specific exercices before.

Long Mon Buc Da, has an opening with a similar flavour as 18 frictions or Tiger exits forest, but is longer and as I said has a series of forward steping combining a pivot and a downward palm (or forearm in some versions) thrust. This is my understanding of “oppresive bridge” in the name of form. They are followed by pal to face.

So all in all sounds a bit azt least like your form.

(I just noticed that TS Tang, student of Chow Fook, has 5 elements form and Single power. Thus another school from older generation master who has these forms. On his web site it says he learned PM at age 15 in Canton from CLC, or in 1928. THis makes him not as old a student as Ho Hong Har or Tsang Wai Bac, but still old enough to know these forms which were subsequently no longer taught apparently. -once again no value judgement just an observation).

EAZ

13

Thanks for going completely off topic guys!

Fiercest Tiger:
Thanks for your tone, I didnft want anyone to take it offensive. All Im saying is that YKM should always recognize CLC in their lineage. You said it your self that a big part of YKM is Bak Mei. Would it be what it is without Bak Mei??? Tit Yan didnft create or contribute all the Bak Mei, Lung Ying and Hung Gar forms that comprise YKM. Therefs nothing wrong with a branch of Bak Mei, its just respectful to admit where it comes from.
I believe it was Man Foo Cheut Lum that Ha Kwok Cheung performed at the gathering, but donft quote me on that, there were a lot of masters and performances that day.

EAZ:
In the Vietnam school there are a lot of forms. I donft know that much about the teachers from there but my Sifu was sent a book out of respect from one of the Vietnam Bak Mei schools on all their material. They have a few different versions of Gau Bo Toei, Cheun Fa Gau Bo Sup Saam Toei, Moh Kiu Gau Bo Toei, etc., someone went crazy on the forms there, the majority are clearly not traditional. I still have their forms list, if anyone is interested I can post it.

Kei Lun

14

Fiercest Tiger, you mentioned that you consider the bak mei as external with some internal elements, but the ykm internal is purely internal. Well Bak Mei is an internal art, on the same (but slightly higher) internal level as Hsing Yi. Bak Mei is power from internal that manifests itself externally. The 2 forces in Bak Mei are Geng Ging (scared or shock power) and Sai Dong Ging (power of tremor?) both of these are internal forces and are applied to all movements in Bak Mei, therefore each and every form of Bak Mei is internal. This power is what Bak Mei is. You can apply this power to Hung Ga, Tai Chi, Tong Long, etc. Bak Mei is not a group of movements, or sets of forms, it is a system of power, which is purely internal, even though 90percent of the Bak Mei out there cannot do it, only verbalizes the theories.

Anyway, higher up once the internal power is better developed and understood by the practitioner, then one goes back and makes all the forms slower and softer, like TaiJi, but still exerts power the same (faat ging).

As well Bak Mei also has its own Chi Kung methods. This Chi Kung was passed to very few students of CLC, and those who learned it horded it as a treasure and only taught the lucky few students. Most who didnft learn it just adopted another Chi Kung method into the system and called it Bak Mei Chi Kung, so its hard to find out if the Chi Kung you learned in your school is the original or not.

Bak Mei Chi Kung is different than other Chi Kung methods in that in the beginning the Chi is trained to gflowh, like that in TaiJi, the standard. But later, the Chi is trained to gpulseh, which makes it martial, an internal element unique to Bak Mei. When you look at Hung Gar the force is strong and consistent, in Choy Lee Fut it is flowing and again consistant (like momentum carrying the movements), TaiJi smooth and continuous, and so on. But in the Hakka styles, i.e. Bak Mei, Lung Ying, Lam Tong Long, etc., they tend to be very choppy, which is why they donft usually do that well at forms competitions! If people in these styles do flow through a form, fast as lightning, non-stop stepping and striking, then there is no internal elements involved. The internal element in Bak Mei does not flow, it pulses. Purely internal eh!

Kei Lun

  • yau ying da ying, mo ying da ying -
15

Hi

Kei Lun - awesome insight and extrapolation! Well said indeed! The feeling one gets from practicing Bak Mei is very difficult to describe in words - certainly, “alive”, and “powerful” spring to mind. You come to be aware of the little movements, and the little muscles that are not commonly used, in everyday life. I guess that applies to every art though, if practiced with enthusiasm and diligence!

I’ve always thought of Bak Mei as more of a method of internal power generation - that’s the beauty and mystery of it. The forms (aside from JB and GBT), seem less important than the breathing, and various methods - almost like a “martial chi-gung” style. However, I do think the movements have to fit the method to some extent (i.e., would be difficult to incorporate into longer-arm systems).

Cheers!

16

kei lun troll

kei lun - Thanks for going completely off topic guys!

Ah yes, the honey pot stirrer is angered by his failed attempt to cause discord and strife among his most recently selected target. For shame I say, that the plans of kei lun, martial arts Master supreme have been thwarted by those he desired to annoy. Careful my friends, the great kei lun will most assuredly reach deep into his mystical bag of magazines, comic books and videos to select and unleash a devastating revenge.

kei lun - All Im saying is that YKM should always recognize CLC in their lineage.

Since the great kei lun, expert on many matters martial has degreed that it should be so it behooves all whom fall within earshot of kei lun to immediately comply with his demand. I trust FT will quickly make the necessary changes in his Pai’s lineage charts so as to not rile the great kei lun and risk earning his mighty and righteous wrath.

kei lun - … someone went crazy on the forms there, the majority are clearly not traditional

Ah yes EAZ, yet again the great kei lun, expert on matters pertaining to CLF, SPM, western boxing, and now YKM and Bak Mei, pontificates from on high. I bow in the direction of one so learned, so obviously high eyebrow that all should grovel in appreciation for his lowering of self to address we puny mortals who struggle on, seeking expertise in merely one hand.

kei lun - … my Sifu was sent a book out of respect …

A first rate display of Sun Dar powers as kei lun’s martial arts comic book collection was incredibly brought to life and sent out a book under its own volition. Bravo kei lun, bravo. I wait in eager anticipation of what your video collection will do at your bidding.

Cannibalism is unequivocally a valid dynamic for all societies. I am, Hideous

17

Hey Guys!

YKM wont change there name to Pak Mei and will never use CLC in the ykm lineage, unless the grandmaster (alive) says so! But i doubt that as ykm has represented for 80 yrs without using CLC name or the mention of Pak Mei. I like to mention that YKM does hold roots to Pak Mei as a foundation and people ask me what does ykm resemble i say Pak Mei and Dragon! Although i have Pak Mei forms i have learnt i will teach it in YKM in the future or i may hold a seperate class for Pak mei Kung Fu.

In Guangzhou some of Great Grandmasters ha’s students call it pak mei and some use CLC in the lineage. YKM is in the hands of Grandmaster Ha Kwok Cheung the son of G/GMATER Ha Hon Hung and he has built ykm into a formiable martial art as it is today and Lion and Dragon Dancing is one of the best perfomances in the world today.

I use to argue with YUM CHA he was a YKM student under my sifu in the old days too, about YKM is the same as Pak Mei. But i now realise that we share the same recipe and forms but we do things different to his school and our training methods get us to different levels,powers etc. Our power generated is different! I like to say the way my YKM school produces the ging is a springy type not a whipping type. So yum cha my brother if your reading sorry for all the arguing in the past!:smiley:

cya’s
FT:)

18

Kei lun

I didnt read your post on page one before posting my last post, so i’ll put my thoughts on your theories.

:slight_smile:

Fast Forms with power and muscle tension at the end, during, or before, is still external to me. To close a fist you must use muscle. To draw the elbows in and round the back you must again use muscle, so there is tension. I’m just trying to split the external to internal training in Yau Kung Mun. Our beginning forms have a Hung Gar influence but also contain the Bak Mei principles. These forms have a snappy springing type of force. As we get higher in the Bak Mei forms like Gau Bo Tui, Sup Batt Mor, Meng Fu Chut Lum, all these forms use Yau Kung, soft and hard power. So now you could say these forms are more internal, if you get what I am saying.

Ging is ging, power manifested from the body by leading the mind, chi, and heart. So this way it has gone from internal to external. Geng Jak Ging and Faat Ging are explosive like a shock. I have yet to see this tremor ging to understand what you are talking about, as I have not seen one bak mei teacher do this type of ging you are talking about. I have seen one man do nine step with a very rigid stance but he had a springy elastic power in the arms, so that is the elastic power that EAZ must be talking about.

Tiat Yun is the monk who passed the true Yau Kung Mun (internal chi gung forms) to Har Hon Hung. Har Hon Hung then absorbed Bak Mei and his years of training in Hung Gar into the syllabus for foundation and understanding hard and soft powers, as well as training the body for our higher levels. Some people like to go from soft to hard, I myself like to go from hard to soft training.

Anyways, I have much respect for Bak Mei and I try to promote Bak Mei the best I can. At the end of the day you get to your level of training and I get to my level of training so it’s all good. As I have said many times, I bleieve that ging is better felt than seen, many people are fast and snappy but can’t time or penetrate a punch so therefore this type of ging is useless without timing. As long as I have enough power to hurt someone if I need to and I am confident that I can use my kung fu, thats all that really matters. Nothing beats the ging of a gun.

Anyway, I hope this clears up my break down of internal and external of the forms trained in Yau Kung Mun. Bak Mei forms maybe to you are all internal, and I do understand what you are saying, but it doesn’t all seem true to me.

Take Care,

FT Garry :smiley:

19

Kei Lun and FT

Very interesting thoughts on PM thank you. Kei lun your first paragraph is particularly interesting in that you say PM is system of power rather then forms. This is coherant with what I have been taught. However methodology to reacht the end goal appear quite disparate from school to school.

Kei Lun, before making what appears to me a hasty judgement on forms on Pei Mei in Vietnam please be aware that all forms practiced (bar one) can be traced to Tsang Wai Bac, ie; circa 1932. You may think he invented them. However, all forms practiced in Vietnam (bar 2) are practiced elsewhere, however the reverse is not the case. An easy example is something like Singular power, practiced by Chow Fook lineage but not elsewhere. Or Dia Sach, fighting on the ground: practiced in some schools and not others, or 5 elements etc…

I would also add that their are other branches of PM than CLC. I know of only one pesonally, in Vietnam, brought by a monk who interestingly enough tought essentailly power generation technics more than forms. I am sure there are others.

20

Fierce Tiger

Hi Fierce Tiger,

You mentioned that YKM has a Hung Gar influence in the beginning forms. I have a VCD of a version of (Canton) Gau Bo Toy, with a guy in red pants and black shirt on the cover. Some of the stance work and technique resemble Hung Gar more than Bak Mei. The bow starts off as Bak Mei, then he raises his right index finger in the Hung Gar iron finger salute.

Is this actually YKM? Anyone else seen this VCD?

Thanks - Ao Qin