Awesome Mook Jong Demonstration

[Xiao3_Meng4]

[QUOTE=jeetsao;1041756]You would then have to agree that skipping rope, road work, MMA fighters hitting a truck tire with a sledge hammer, chopping wood, and a host of other training exercises have no value to the sport fighter since they have nothing to do with fighting. ??? You obviously have no understanding of the attributes that are trained on the jong. Perhaps if you would take the time to read the text that precedes the video you would gain a little understanding about this training method.[/QUOTE]

@RedJunkRebel

It is also important to make note that practicing the form this quickly is only for those that have already put years into training the dummy slowly and for structure. Additionally, it shouldn’t be practiced this way all of the time. However, the fact is that practicing the wooden dummy form this quickly makes your movements more efficient. This efficiency and level of comfort at this insane speed creates a certain smoothness, stability and accuracy through the transitions from position to position - - creating security during your most vulnerable moments.

@RedJunkRebel

This method of training the dummy at this speed is anything but old and outdated. In fact, that’s why its so controversial to so many of the old school Wing Chun community. It goes against the traditional methods of how to train the dummy yet in a way that doesn’t disregard the completeness of Wing Chun by adding other arts to it.

Although there can never be a substitute for realistic sparring, Karl has found that training the dummy form at this insane speed is an undeniable advancement in making practitioners better… faster.

Holy Time Warp, Kato! What hole have you guys crawled out of???

You guys should hook up with Stan from the other thread. He believes in Santa too.

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=RedJunkRebel;1041775]Yes and yes. Practicing the dummy at this speed develops your body to reduce the amount of effort. As you work on getting your speed down to less than 2 minutes (90 seconds in this video), you must move more efficiently in order to get to each position within the compressed time.[/QUOTE]

There is nothing wrong with practicing moving quickly, and there are traditional ways of doing that. For example, here is Sum Nung practicing the “air dummy” (doing the dummy set without the dummy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU4TkleB5hw

However, the main “purpose” of dummy training is to teach you body leverage and the ability to express that through your bridges (that’s why you are working with a solid, heavy post). Hence the kuit, Muk Yan Jong Lien Ging Lik Gung (the dummy is to train your power).

[jeetsao]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1041785]There is nothing wrong with practicing moving quickly, and there are traditional ways of doing that. For example, here is Sum Nung practicing the “air dummy” (doing the dummy set without the dummy):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU4TkleB5hw

However, the main “purpose” of dummy training is to teach you body leverage and the ability to express that through your bridges (that’s why you are working with a solid, heavy post). Hence the kuit, Muk Yan Jong Lien Ging Lik Gung (the dummy is to train your power).[/QUOTE]

The first couple of days we had knee “jerk” reactions to the video. Now the discussions have some substance.
If the “air dummy” has value and I would not argue against it, then substituting the jong for “air” could keep the movements “honest” as to position, precision and accuracy. No one is suggesting that we abandon the traditional training on the Jong. This simply supplements it.

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=jeetsao;1041809]The first couple of days we had knee “jerk” reactions to the video. Now the discussions have some substance.
If the “air dummy” has value and I would not argue against it, then substituting the jong for “air” could keep the movements “honest” as to position, precision and accuracy. No one is suggesting that we abandon the traditional training on the Jong. This simply supplements it.[/QUOTE]

Why don’t boxers use their heavy bag to work their “speed”? Because that’s not making good use of the training apparatus (which is “designed” for something else).

How do you know whether your WCK movement/actions have “correct position” and are accurate/precise? ONLY pressure can tell you that. The dummy permits you to practice with pressure without a live partner – because with the dummy you are loading your body leverage into the dummy and if your bridges aren’t “correct” they won’t be able to do it effectively (to use an analogy, it is like pushing a stalled car, the heaviness of the car/dummy forces you to align to get optimal body). When you move very quickly and aren’t loading into the dummy, you aren’t practicing this and there is no “check” on your alignment or your precision or your position.

[LoneTiger108]

[QUOTE=jeetsao;1041167]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6PIT205BQE[/QUOTE]

Awesome? :rolleyes:

I have seen many attempts at this sort of practice with the wooden man and have to say that I can’t find any real purpose behind it.

I’m always willing to learn more though, and some comments here are interesting. But, for someone who takes much pride in his wooden man knowledge I can also see why this clip became a target for many!

I was only going through some sets of the 108 last night with a bruv and if you do understand the exact purpose of the form you just wouldn’t practise it like the clip at all. For each precise hand positioning there is an equally important step and stance and I could not see evidence of that balance in the clip.

There is a massive risk of developing a ‘paper hand’ with this sort of training. As impressive as the speed is…

[jeetsao]

The purpose is explained in the text of the video. This is simply one way to use the jong. By no means should you abandon the traditional way of training it. Both are useful.

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=jeetsao;1042753]The purpose is explained in the text of the video. This is simply one way to use the jong. By no means should you abandon the traditional way of training it. Both are useful.[/QUOTE]

The explanation on the video was pseudo-scientific (to sound knowledgeable) bullsh1t.

[jeetsao]

Any specifics in the text that you don’t understand? Maybe I can help.

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=jeetsao;1043698]Any specifics in the text that you don’t understand? Maybe I can help.[/QUOTE]

I understand what he is saying, it’s just that what he is saying is WRONG. Practicing as he does on the jong won’t make your “technique” faster – it will only make your practice on the jong faster. The jong will not and cannot develop fighting skills or WCK skills or attributes (why people can do the jong their whole lives and not develop any significant skill). It is a learning device, not a training device. And it is obvious that Godwin doesn’t understand what the dummy is “designed” to teach you.

[jeetsao]

Niehoff,
It is interesting that you draw a distinction between training and learning. Because I train thoughtfully, I learn nearly every time I train. The text clearly states that proper use of the jong, should lead the student to LEARN. Please see a partial reprint of the text, below.

As time and space are compressed the student can either respond by trying to move faster (which will develop dow lik struggle power and eventually lead to tom da or greedy hitting) , or the student will learn to connect the circular and linear movement seamlessly. Once connected, the circles and the lines can be reduced, thus efficiently quickening the technique.

It is illogical to think that correct repetitive practice will not develop skill or attributes.
When trained properly, the compression form will help you learn to move more efficiently, so your technique will arrive sooner. You also cant help but become faster when the correct muscles are relaxed that would otherwise serve to restrict the movement of the technique.

Have you considered that GODWIN does understand what the dummy is designed to teach and has simply expanded its use?

What is obvious to me, is that you are missing out on some additional benefits of training the jong.

[k_gledhill]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1043828]I understand what he is saying, it’s just that what he is saying is WRONG. Practicing as he does on the jong won’t make your “technique” faster – it will only make your practice on the jong faster. The jong will not and cannot develop fighting skills or WCK skills or attributes (why people can do the jong their whole lives and not develop any significant skill). It is a learning device, not a training device. And it is obvious that Godwin doesn’t understand what the dummy is “designed” to teach you.[/QUOTE]

neither do you Terence, so not so quick you have to be developing the same idea you started with… and we all see from your posts you dont understand that one.

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=jeetsao;1043910]Niehoff,
It is interesting that you draw a distinction between training and learning. Because I train thoughtfully, I learn nearly every time I train. The text clearly states that proper use of the jong, should lead the student to LEARN. Please see a partial reprint of the text, below.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, I make that distinction because there is a natural distinction between learning to swim and developing your swimming skills (becoming better at a skill you already know).

OK, let’s examine the text.

“As time and space are compressed . . ."

How are “time and space” compressed? Is this some sort of Einsteinian phenomena that I am not aware of? For me, time always runs at the same rate, a foot is always 12 inches – they never seem to compress.

“. . . the student can either respond by trying to move faster (which will develop “dow lik” struggle power and eventually lead to “tom da” or greedy hitting) , or the student will learn to connect the circular and linear movement seamlessly.”

The movements of WCK aren’t simply “linear” and “circular” – all lines and circles. Nor does what Godwin writes make the least bit of sense (how does moving more quickly lead to “greedy hitting”?). This is all bullsh1t.

"Once connected, the circles and the lines can be reduced, thus efficiently quickening the technique.”

No it doesn’t – I can make my movement much smaller and still slow it down. And making movement smaller can have a deleterious effect – particularly if it switches from a gross motor action to a fine motor action.

It is illogical to think that correct repetitive practice will not develop skill or attributes.

Do you think poor practice will develop skill and attributes? That you can just repeat anything and it will develop skill and attributes? You develop fighting skills from practicing the movement/techniques in fighting, not with a wooden dummy.

When trained properly, the compression form will help you learn to move more efficiently, so your technique will arrive sooner.

No, it won’t. You can practice however you want and however long you want on the wooden dummy and it will not mean you will be able to do it in fighting.

You also can’t help but become faster when the correct muscles are relaxed that would otherwise serve to restrict the movement of the technique.

Sure, but you won’t learn how to or develop that working on a wooden dummy.

Have you considered that “GODWIN” does understand what the dummy is “designed” to teach and has simply expanded its use?

Yes, I considered – and rejected that idea.

What is obvious to me, is that you are missing out on some additional benefits of training the jong.

Since Mr. Godwin likes to post videos of himself, why doesn’t he show himself fighting with some MT or MMA fighters and pulling off the techniques from the dummy? Then he can show the world how his training actually does provide “additional benefits”? Or, are these just imagined benefits?

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1043985]neither do you Terence, so not so quick you have to be developing the same idea you started with… and we all see from your posts you dont understand that one.[/QUOTE]

It’s not about “ideas” or “developing ideas.”

WCK’s approach is to control the opponent while striking him, and EVERYTHING in WCK (forms, drills, kuit, faat, etc.) is consistent with that approach.

Bayer’s “idea” that everything in WCK is a tan/jum punch is not what other branches of WCK teach, not what Yip Man taught, and not what WSL taught.

[Phil_Redmond]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1044217]It’s not about “ideas” or “developing ideas.”

WCK’s approach is to control the opponent while striking him, and EVERYTHING in WCK (forms, drills, kuit, faat, etc.) is consistent with that approach.

Bayer’s “idea” that everything in WCK is a tan/jum punch is not what other branches of WCK teach, not what Yip Man taught, and not what WSL taught.[/QUOTE]
How do you know what Yip Man or WSL taught? You weren’t there. Your Wing experience is limited to who? Robert Chu and Hawkins Cheung? I stand corrected If I missed someone. I’ve studied with way more Wing Chun people than you have and I have more experience in Wing Chun than you. I’ve even competed using WC.
Until I started working for a Law Firm I trained and taught full time. Yet, I never come off as a know it all like you do. I’m open to interpretation and different ideas. In fact, I’m still learning. Why? because NONE of us knows all there is to know about what the founders thought/taught or who taught what to whom.
No one can know all that Yip Man, WSL or anyone else taught privately.
Unless you’re omniscient you can’t know either.

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1044253]How do you know what Yip Man or WSL taught? You weren’t there.
[/QUOTE]

We can do it by looking to what THEIR students do and teach.

Your Wing experience is limited to who? Robert Chu and Hawkins Cheung? I stand corrected If I missed someone.

I initially learned Leung Ting’s wing tsun, then Cheung’s TWC, and then either visited or attended seminars from lots of people before finding and training with Robert. And since that time I’ve seen even more.

I’ve studied with way more Wing Chun people than you have and I have more experience in Wing Chun than you. I’ve even competed using WC.

“Studied with way more WCKa people”? Really. OK. So what? That’s like saying you went to more grammar schools than I did.

Yes, you keep SAYING that you competed “using your WCK” but if it is anything like what your students do – and it will be since you are the one teaching them – we don’t see much WCK, do we?

Until I started working for a Law Firm I trained and taught full time.

Good for you, Phil. In other words, you took people’s money for teaching them TWC. And you are proud of that?

Yet, I never come off as a know it all like you do. I’m open to interpretation and different ideas. In fact, I’m still learning. Why? because NONE of us knows all there is to know about what the founders thought/taught or who taught what to whom.

And I’m still learning. In fact, I don’t call myself “master” like some people. Or take their money.

But I do think that what our ancestors taught is pretty clear – all you have to do is compare the older branches of WCK (Gu Lao, YKS, early Yip, older mainland branches, etc.) and you see the commonality.

No one can know all that Yip Man, WSL or anyone else taught privately.
Unless you’re omniscient you can’t know either.

I understand why this is important for you, Phil, since Cheung CLAIMS to have learned his TWC privately from Yip – and, you’ll say that we can’t prove that didn’t happen (like we can’t prove there isn’t a Bigfoot). But we all know that’s not true, it’s just a marketing story and that TWC is Cheung’s own re-tooling, or should I say modification, of what he learned at Yip’s school (mainly from his seniors). What Yip taught is easily seen by looking to his students.

[LoneTiger108]

[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1044492]We can do it by looking to what THEIR students do and teach.[/QUOTE]

Is this really how you decide what Ip Man or any of the elder masters taught?? There is a massive flaw here T :rolleyes:

If I just use Lee Shing as an example and understand that everybodies image of LSWC originates from my Uncle Austin Goh, as he is the more ‘famous’ commercial teacher, am I right to expect ALL of Lee Shings other students’ students to be the same?

Fact is, the world has still to see many of the elder generations and what they can do so your reasoning to me is plain silly

[t_niehoff]

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1044499]Is this really how you decide what Ip Man or any of the elder masters taught?? There is a massive flaw here T :rolleyes:

If I just use Lee Shing as an example and understand that everybodies image of LSWC originates from my Uncle Austin Goh, as he is the more ‘famous’ commercial teacher, am I right to expect ALL of Lee Shings other students’ students to be the same?

Fact is, the world has still to see many of the elder generations and what they can do so your reasoning to me is plain silly :p[/QUOTE]

You don’t understand what I am saying.

If we want to know what some deceased person taught (or how they taught), how can we know except by looking at their students? Of course, students can vary, but by comparing different students from the same teacher, we can see those things in common among all of them (which makes it highly likely they came from the same source). This is why, for example, there are Yip Man signatures (in forms, drills, etc.).

[RedJunkRebel]

[QUOTE=jeetsao;1043910]Niehoff,
It is interesting that you draw a distinction between training and learning. Because I train thoughtfully, I learn nearly every time I train. The text clearly states that proper use of the jong, should lead the student to LEARN. Please see a partial reprint of the text, below.

As time and space are compressed the student can either respond by trying to move faster (which will develop dow lik struggle power and eventually lead to tom da or greedy hitting) , or the student will learn to connect the circular and linear movement seamlessly. Once connected, the circles and the lines can be reduced, thus efficiently quickening the technique.

It is illogical to think that correct repetitive practice will not develop skill or attributes.
When trained properly, the compression form will help you learn to move more efficiently, so your technique will arrive sooner. You also cant help but become faster when the correct muscles are relaxed that would otherwise serve to restrict the movement of the technique.

Have you considered that GODWIN does understand what the dummy is designed to teach and has simply expanded its use?

What is obvious to me, is that you are missing out on some additional benefits of training the jong.[/QUOTE]

Great post. I couldn’t agree with you more.

[jeetsao]

Niehoff "Since Mr. Godwin likes to post videos of himself, why doesn’t he show himself fighting with some MT or MMA fighters and pulling off the techniques from the dummy? Then he can show the world how his training actually does provide “additional benefits”? Or, are these just imagined benefits?[/QUOTE]

I don’t know where you are coming from. You seem to have some (closed minded) wing chun knowledge, but then suggest the test of skill is to engage in a “fight” with a MT or MMA athlete. MMA and MT are sports. Wing Chun is not about sport or “fighting” it is about ending a “life or death” encounter as quickly as possible.

[Xiao3_Meng4]

[QUOTE=jeetsao;1044967]Wing Chun is not about sport or “fighting” it is about ending a “life or death” encounter as quickly as possible.[/QUOTE]

I love this forum.

Endless entertainment.

'Cause, y’know, sport fighting is all about dragging the fight out. :rolleyes: