Different rules, mentality, and tools.
But you knew that.
[QUOTE=jeetsao;1044967]
Niehoff "Since Mr. Godwin likes to post videos of himself, why doesn’t he show himself fighting with some MT or MMA fighters and pulling off the techniques from the dummy? Then he can show the world how his training actually does provide “additional benefits”? Or, are these just imagined benefits?
I don’t know where you are coming from. You seem to have some (closed minded) wing chun knowledge, but then suggest the test of skill is to engage in a “fight” with a MT or MMA athlete. MMA and MT are sports. Wing Chun is not about sport or “fighting” it is about ending a “life or death” encounter as quickly as possible.[/QUOTE]
ROFLOL! “Life or death” encounters? I see, your view then is that WCK doesn’t prepare you to fight BUT to prepare you for a “life and death encounter”! Genius. Pure genius.
Tell me, what is the “test” for fighting skill but fighting? Or, are the techniques Mr. Godwin teaches too d3adly to expose sport fighters to?
Yes, I know that you don’t know where I am coming from, because you are in the land of fantasy. Isn’t it pretty there?
So you recognize no difference between self defense and fighting? No difference in a mutually agreed to fight ( with a MMA or Mt guy) and a threat from an aggressor? No difference in the choice of weapons and tactics? Come on. You have to know the difference. There is a list of things not allowed in the cage and an even greater list of those not allowed in MT. But we are a bit off the subject. The original point is that proper jong work will help you develop attributes that make your applications more effective in a real situation. Yes, you still need unrehearsed work with an uncooperative training partner. But just as a boxer does not spar as his only method of training, wing chun offers a number of ways to improve skill, the jong being only one of them.
While there is legitimate distinctions between sports fighting and “street” fighting, it seems 9/10 times its just poor excuse for not doing the hard work required to actually fight.
[QUOTE=RedJunkRebel;1041770]
However, the fact is that practicing the wooden dummy form this quickly makes your movements more efficient.
[/QUOTE]
I agree if “efficiency” means firing an empty gun as fast as you can..or even a loaded one as fast as you can… More shots fired where no shots hit the target means Jack unless it was simply a contest of speed above everything anything else–that’s not what Chun is about. The Jong was never about this kind of focus… That’s just Chun basics 101.
Efficiency is based on accomplishing something in particular–in this case a delivery system, but here it delivers nothing.. Faster does not equate to efficiency unless it is a solitary objective..meaning greater speed above all else.. For most of us greater speed above all else equates to poor training..
There is no substance just speed..where compression means as fast as humanly possible, no body unity, no body connection, without which makes this a fast (and strange) dance…
In all honesty it’s just goofy and certainly does not translate to application nor showcase any true ability that might otherwise exist.
These strangely obsessive training concoctions are often created to distract and substitute for actual hard core reality based training/fighting…
“Best in the world” Puleeeeese..
Let’s see the guy doing something that actually showcases real skill.
[QUOTE=YungChun;1045015]I agree if “efficiency” means firing an empty gun as fast as you can..or even a loaded one as fast as you can… More shots fired where no shots hit the target means Jack unless it was simply a contest of speed above everything anything else–that’s not what Chun is about. The Jong was never about this kind of focus… That’s just Chun basics 101.
Efficiency is based on accomplishing something in particular–in this case a delivery system, but here it delivers nothing.. Faster does not equate to efficiency unless it is a solitary objective..meaning greater speed above all else.. For most of us greater speed above all else equates to poor training..
There is no substance just speed..where compression means as fast as humanly possible, no body unity, no body connection, without which makes this a fast (and strange) dance…
In all honesty it’s just goofy and certainly does not translate to application nor showcase any true ability that might otherwise exist.
These strangely obsessive training concoctions are often created to distract and substitute for actual hard core reality based training/fighting… [/QUOTE]
I agree with you on several things. This type of non-classical speed training is meant to be “outside the box” of Wing Chun basics. I also agree that this type of speed training can be horrible if not balanced out with slow, deliberate, meticulous mook jong training. Slow is better than fast, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t substantial benefits to compression training detailed in the video.
The old saying, “don’t knock it till you try it” goes a long way here. After you can do your jong form in 90 seconds blindfolded with accuracy, control and relaxation, come back and try honestly saying that you don’t see it’s worth.
Good post RJR.
Yungchun
“More shots fired where no shots hit the target means Jack”
You assume they will not hit the target. Not sure why.
The only attribute that compression training shows is speed. He doesn’t look stable and he shows no power - the jong barely moves.
So he might be fast, he might hit the target - but what about the power?
[QUOTE=jeetsao;1044998]So you recognize no difference between self defense and fighting? No difference in a mutually agreed to fight ( with a MMA or Mt guy) and a threat from an aggressor? No difference in the choice of weapons and tactics? Come on. You have to know the difference. There is a list of things not allowed in the cage and an even greater list of those not allowed in MT. But we are a bit off the subject. The original point is that proper jong work will help you develop attributes that make your applications more effective in a real situation. Yes, you still need unrehearsed work with an uncooperative training partner. But just as a boxer does not spar as his only method of training, wing chun offers a number of ways to improve skill, the jong being only one of them.[/QUOTE]
Self-defense is many things, and one of those things is fighting skill. Fighting skill and attributes are constant (if you can’t deal with a punch in the ring, you can’t deal with it on the str33t, if you can’t go for 10 seconds in the gym, you’re not going to last any longer in the str33t), but tactics – how we choose to use those skills – vary depending on the circumstances. There is no point even discussing tactics if you don’t have the skill and the attributes.
Jong “work” won’t develop either fighting skills or fighting attributes. All Mr. Godwin or you need to do is go fight spar and try to USE these skills and attributes you believe your jong training gives you and you will see how mistaken you are. In fact, if you aren’t doing that, you have no basis for even making your claim – as how can you know doing X will develop your skill if you aren’t testing to see whether or not it does?
[QUOTE=jesper;1045014]While there is legitimate distinctions between sports fighting and “street” fighting, it seems 9/10 times its just poor excuse for not doing the hard work required to actually fight.[/QUOTE]
You are correct. But some of us are found in the 1/10 group.
Fact: the worst drivers think they’re the best drivers.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1045039]Self-defense is many things, and one of those things is fighting skill. Fighting skill and attributes are constant (if you can’t deal with a punch in the ring, you can’t deal with it on the str33t, if you can’t go for 10 seconds in the gym, you’re not going to last any longer in the str33t), but tactics – how we choose to use those skills – vary depending on the circumstances. There is no point even discussing tactics if you don’t have the skill and the attributes.[/QUOTE]
Agree for the most part.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1045039] Jong “work” won’t develop either fighting skills or fighting attributes. All Mr. Godwin or you need to do is go fight spar and try to USE these skills and attributes you believe your jong training gives you and you will see how mistaken you are. In fact, if you aren’t doing that, you have no basis for even making your claim – as how can you know doing X will develop your skill if you aren’t testing to see whether or not it does?[/QUOTE]
Disagree. Jong work can provide cardio so that you can go more than 10 seconds in the street. ( I think endurance is a fighting attribute, so this is an attribute that can be trained on the jong ). I have worked with numerous partners from other disciplines including MMA in a non rehearsed setting and have applied the attributes and movements practiced on the jong and with great success. Finally you state that jong work will not develop fighting skills or attributes. I would have to conclude from your statement that you are correct, but only if it is practiced solely as you apparently prescribe. Jong work, as illustrated in the video does develop these attributes for me. If you have never seriously trained it in this manner, perhaps it would be worth a try before passing judgement. It appears your cup is full.
[QUOTE=Xiao3 Meng4;1045200]Fact: the worst drivers think they’re the best drivers.[/QUOTE]
Didn’t claim to be the best, just one that trains hard and understands the difference in sport and “defense”
[QUOTE=jesper;1045014]While there is legitimate distinctions between sports fighting and “street” fighting, it seems 9/10 times its just poor excuse for not doing the hard work required to actually fight.[/QUOTE]
QFT!!!
[QUOTE=TenTigers;1045217]QFT!!![/QUOTE]
QFT? Sorry. Don’t know that one.
[QUOTE=CFT;1045032]He doesn’t look stable and he shows no power - the jong barely moves.[/QUOTE]
I can understand where it may seem that he may be unstable. Stability can look a lot different at this speed versus at slower speeds. Note that he is not overreaching - - something I see all too often in people practicing the dummy (even at slower “demonstration” speed). His head remains directly centered over his body the entire time, not leaning in or to one side. This is a good sign of stability as we understand that upper body leaning has an real negative affect on the entire structure.
I can see how it is hard to believe, but trust me, everything he is doing here is deliberate. This includes the lack of destruction to the dummy. I understand the act of “sending” or “releasing” a certain amount of energy into the dummy. But this is different. Note that the text in the video mentions how this type of training can develop rigid/struggling energy. He’s focusing in remaining relaxed and purposely trying to control his application of force to the dummy… a nearly impossible task at this speed.
[QUOTE=RedJunkRebel;1045234]I can understand where it may seem that he may be unstable. Stability can look a lot different at this speed versus at slower speeds. Note that he is not overreaching - - something I see all too often in people practicing the dummy (even at slower “demonstration” speed). His head remains directly centered over his body the entire time, not leaning in or to one side. This is a good sign of stability as we understand that upper body leaning has an real negative affect on the entire structure.
I can see how it is hard to believe, but trust me, everything he is doing here is deliberate. This includes the lack of destruction to the dummy. I understand the act of “sending” or “releasing” a certain amount of energy into the dummy. But this is different. Note that the text in the video mentions how this type of training can develop rigid/struggling energy. He’s focusing in remaining relaxed and purposely trying to control his application of force to the dummy… a nearly impossible task at this speed.[/QUOTE]
Not nearly impossible at all… considering the fact that once you get past a certain speed, human muscular force production actually decreases. Add to that the fact that he has almost no full kinetic chain force development and you have someone, in that demo, who is able to produce very little force in the first place.
[QUOTE=jeetsao;1044967]I don’t know where you are coming from. You seem to have some (closed minded) wing chun knowledge, but then suggest the test of skill is to engage in a “fight” with a MT or MMA athlete. MMA and MT are sports. Wing Chun is not about sport or “fighting” it is about ending a “life or death” encounter as quickly as possible.[/QUOTE]
These examples demonstrate what is generally the result when you put a “sport” guy against a “life or death” guy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABqD8Odaebw
http://www.vidilife.com/video_play_550606
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LZVDVEKRrI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h50xdieYG8Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYQiPRUu7b0&feature=related
… and it’s been going on at least since Kano developed judo in the 1800’s because of his belief that, since Jujutsu’s “deadly techniques” could not be practiced at full force, they were ineffective. He used his philosophy of full out training with safer, “sport” techniques to challenge the jujutsu guys and, basically, smashed them.
It’s pretty much been proven over and over again that “life and death” training doesn’t really hold up against sport training.
Knifefighter,
Pretty ugly. I love MMA. Same thing happens when you put boxers in with them. No matter how skilled the boxer, he is in the other guys arena. But the fact is that in these videos you have mma fighters against “weekend warriors” . These Ninjas, Kung fu guys etc. are not skilled practitioners, seem far from possessing deadly skill, and are playing the other guys game. Apples and Oranges.
And second. There are rules to protect the fighters. You know very well that many techniques in street defense are not allowed in MMA. Even in the early days the Gracies forbid the eyes as targets and would not allow fish hooking and biting. Today there are even more rules, gloves etc. Again, I love MMA and think they are great athletes and some are even great fighters but they are not the be all and end all in self defense. And yes if you play their game you will loose as these guys found out in your videos.
[QUOTE=jeetsao;1045325]Knifefighter,
Pretty ugly. I love MMA. Same thing happens when you put boxers in with them. No matter how skilled the boxer, he is in the other guys arena. But the fact is that in these videos you have mma fighters against “weekend warriors” . These Ninjas, Kung fu guys etc. are not skilled practitioners, seem far from possessing deadly skill, and are playing the other guys game. Apples and Oranges.
And second. There are rules to protect the fighters. You know very well that many techniques in street defense are not allowed in MMA. Even in the early days the Gracies forbid the eyes as targets and would not allow fish hooking and biting. Today there are even more rules, gloves etc. Again, I love MMA and think they are great athletes and some are even great fighters but they are not the be all and end all in self defense. And yes if you play their game you will loose as these guys found out in your videos.[/QUOTE]
Several of those videos allowed all techniques. When you allow the “d3adly str33t techniques”, the street guys fare even worse.
BTW, there were a few Gracie matches that had biting, eye gouging and all other techs. I saw Ryan Gracie bite a guy’s ear off (actually, I saw him do it twice). Like I said, the “deadly street guys” always got the short end of the deal.
If you can’t fight without foul tactics, you won’t be able to fight any better when your opponent is allowed to use foul tactics.