Are the MA really declining?
How do we measure the decline?
How does the decline manifest itself?
Should we see/preserve MA they way the founders intented them or as a fighting system that needs to adapt and change to the circumstances?
There were always new systems coming up and being dropped trhough the ages, so what makes NOW different?
Yes, there are more bad MA Instructors today then in years gone by, but than we also have way more students?
Personally, I think that the core of good MA practicioners and Sifu has and always will remain about the same size.
Why, because of the way that good MA is transmitted and taught.
With todays modern media and communciation abilities we tend to hear more about frauds and so on, but that does not mean that there were none or fewer in the old Days.
IMHO, I think commercialisation has a lot to do with todays frauds, many people heard that they can swindle people using MA and thus more crooks are climbing onto that particular wagon.
Just look at all the associations that will rank and certify People for a fee.
Why, because they can still get away with it, and it is easy to set up shop on the Net.
Nah. I think we may moving them foreward with all we’re learning in sports medicine, the various forms of competition and even just video tapes of bits of knowlage out there. Now we may be losing the more esoteric parts of the martial arts but if they have enough value they’ll survive even if it’s just as a curiosity or something fun.
people have changed. the general population doesn’t want hardcore training. A perfect example is tai chi. look at how is it taught today - the majority of it seems to be the health only hippie stuff. aero boxing, tae bo, etc. - people are looking for an alternative method of fitness and to learn self defense on the side, not hardcore training. And many of those that do primarily want self defense don’t want to put in the necessary time to learn and develop properly. Because of this, training changes and McDojos are born.
I know the popular thought and answer is to say, “yes”, martial arts are declining. But all I have is my experience.
As I grow, as I move on in my training, I just see higher and higher levels. Now, I know I am very fortunate to be training with my master, and I never imagined martial arts to work this way, but one should always be advancing, so martial arts next week should be better then this week.
As for crappy schools. I remember being a kid, and you knew a good 2/3 of the people showing up at tournaments were just to fill the seats and pay the fee. The people that went home with throphies, usually the same faces and schools.
I don’t know about shooting chi across a room or any of that (doubt it). Dim Mak, I’m open enough to consider its possibility somewhere down the line. But as far as technique, what I am learning now is light years ahead of what I used to study, so as far as I’m concerened martial arts has never been in a better state.
“Just look at all the associations that will rank and certify People for a fee.
Why, because they can still get away with it, and it is easy to set up shop on the Net.”
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. If you won’t judge people on their own merits, you deserve to be taken by such shysters. I know what it takes to be ranked and certified in MY system. So, if somebody in my system has a black belt, I know what that means. Any other system, black belt, or any belt or sash, is meaningless to me. Because I don’t know what it takes.
And I really think that’s the way it’s supposed to work. Ranks and certifications are communiques within a system. You will have to demonstrate your knowledge or technique to a person outside of the system some other way.
I think we get wrapped up in that cr@p and stop thinking for ourselves. It’s lazy.
I know a guy who got his degree from Harvard. A friend was talking about him and said, “That guy is so smart. He got his degree from Harvard.”
I was so confused. “Have talked to him? He’s an idiot. Can’t you tell that? My hat is off to him getting that degree. I bet he’s a VERY hard worker. ‘So smart’? No, I don’t think so.”
My friend reacted like it was this huge secret. “Oh my god, you think that, too?” My friend was afraid to have the opinion that this guy was kind of dim because the guy had some certificate.
You just have to filter through all the crap to find the real good schools. Kind of like looking for a job in the classifieds or online. You see what looks like a great job but turns out to be another pesky job recruiter. Then you see a basic ad with no flare and it turns out to be the best job you’ve ever had.
"I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. If you won’t judge people on their own merits, you deserve to be taken by such shysters. "
People who are completely new to MA and don’t know what to look for don’t know. When they end up at one of the McDojos, they stay there, and may never see what other schools are like. Then they open a school and being in more of the same students… it’s a never-ending cycle
I wouldn’t say declining, but there is a lot happening now. There’s a lot of division creating some new categories of martial arts.
I would say that you now have Traditional which includes all the old formal styles.
Sport (combat, and fitness)
Street (which would be the “Special Forces” or “Street Thug” derivative martial arts)
Each of these is becomming more specialized, and their effectiveness for what they are intended for is getting better.
Where we have problems and where we see some decline are in the “Schizophrenic” schools— the ones that can’t decide what they want to be based on the above classifications. They try to be inclusive of multiple or all of the characterstics (or new styles) and, as a result, tend to be mediocre or bad in all of them (the ol’ Jack of all Trades Master of None syndrome).
Yes. It’s the natural order of things. Every human endeaver reaches an apex. After that bells and whistles are added to sell it to the general populas. Then it’s reduced to it’s lowest common denominator for economics. More bells and whistles are added to keep the public interested. More hype is written by literature and science wannabees. The product now only vaguely resembles the original. Only a small portion of what made the thing good to begin with still exists. Everyone can afford it now. Most everone can do it now.
What fits into this catagory?
Most automobiles.
Most music.
Most cinema.
Most television.
Most clothing.
Most furniture.
Most sports.
Most culinary arts.
Most fine arts.
ect.
Many believe CMA apexed in the early 1900’s.
Film in 1939.
Recorded music in 1967.
ect.
At one time not long ago only one person knew how to make a flint knife. They rediscovered it. This can happen with anything. Gold beading is another example.
MA is what it is… just because u have MA for fitness, point sparring, self defense and sport does not make one bad and the other good… if anything each is getting better at what they do… people get out of MA what they want… if u want cardio KF u get that… if you want MMA… thats out there too… as for newbies not getting what they want… well thats part of the process… hell… i use to train at a McDojo… but without that experience i might not be where i am today…
I think all of those divisions are part of the problem, as all of those divisions don’t belong under the term “MA” tae bo is by no means martial, not is the new age tai chi if you aren’t learning the applications.
I don’t know if I would call it a decline, though I think many styles are changing, seems this has really happened in the past 10 years or so with the introduction of the UFC and the like. I can’t speak for all areas around the world, but were I live there seems to be this new breed of MMA training and the loss of the so-called traditional arts. I don’t think that this is completely a bad thing though. Throughout the history of MA the so-called new and inproved arts have also come about, though this didn’t always mean that they were better, just someone’s perception, or maybe even a marketing ploy.
As far as the traditional arts, I believe they must adapt to to their surroundings, such as how to take on these new styles. But at the same time my question is how much can you change or adapt your art without eventually changing your entire style/system. I have always wondered how was Wing Chun used and trained back in the day over 250 years ago? Is it the same, similar or completely different? How much has been lost over the centuries? My next question is what will Wing Chun look like in another 250 years, how will it have changed by then?
As far as the McDojos, well I believe in some sense they have probably been around since people began charging to teach the martial arts. I am sure there were frauds 200 years ago. Unfortunately, they do give true martial artist a bad name, but this is were your belief in your system comes in. If you believe in what you are doing, no one else should be able to influence you and your training. Though, I have to admit that I label the Tae Bo groups and groups like this under the McDojo label. This is because people are told that they will be able to handle themselves in real life situations if they take this class. I think this is a false sense of security, IMHO.
I don’t see it as part of the problem as it pertains to the quality of MA available… it’s Tae-bo for gods sake… I’m sure noone( I could be wrong ) is taking tae-bo for self-defense purposes… its tae-bo… its for fitness… the problem I do have with those cardio type classes is the fact that most dont teach it correctly and can lead to injury… but thats another thread… but anyway it serves its purpose and that fitness… but MMA style instruction is ‘bad’ to someone that wants fitness… if u wanna fight and there is no sparring move on… but that doesnt mean its bad… its just bad for u… granted there is difficulty in finding what u want in MA… but its outthere… it may not be the style of first choice or a longer drive than what u want… but its still there…u might wanna do shuai jiao(sp?) but u might have to settle with judo… but it still serves the purpose… to throw dude on his neck…
I’m sure noone( I could be wrong ) is taking tae-bo for self-defense purposes
Yep. You are wrong. It is common among housewives to take the hours in between Days of Our Lives and Oprah to improve their physique and self defense skills. It’s like sweatin to the oldies with a side of ass whooping.
This is because people are told that they will be able to handle themselves in real life situations if they take this class. I think this is a false sense of security, IMHO.
that IMO is gonna change too… with forums like this and the help of UFC and the like… people who are interested in MA are becoming educated as to what to look for in a MA school… but u will still have parents that need a babysitter for lil jonny after school… and McDojos will serve them( and even in McDojos hids a monster of a fighter… and thanks to lil jonny, his training is being paid for )… lil jonny mom is gonna wann lose a few for mr jonny so she’ll take the cardio class… and when lil jonny grows up he’ll wann be like Shamrock and he’ll either move on or train with badazz fighter after hours at the McDojo…
