Lots of Martial Arts Schools Are Closing?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

So calling around Seattle, trying to find places to train if I relocate there, a common thread has come up, which is that a lot of schools are in fact closing or their memberships are really down.

It seems the main schools surviving are the ones that have a lot of kids programs and teach really watered-down martial arts.

Anybody else see this happening? Like for example, there are no more Tracys kenpo schools around Seattle, they’ve all shut down. Several instructors I called said they teach kids to stay alive but there are very few students anymore even for kids, and they wonder what’s going on.

2

http://www.makskungfu.com/

your search is over! :wink:

3

Thanks, but no thanks. I don’t want to learn a lot of useless forms.

I’ve found a place that doesn’t require forms. It’s called Ring Sports United.

4

The martial arts industry is just reaping what it’s sown. Kids programs went from a way to generate money that went into the adult programs to taking over the schools. Also add on programs to learn self defense, weapons and all the other things that used to just be a part of learning martial arts and you have a great way to eventually undermine your own school.

On the other hand a friend of mine is doing well by orienting his school toward families and by also renting out floor time to other arts.

5

Got it. You wanted martial sports, not martial arts.

6

Im pretty sure that Maks doesnt teach but a handful of forms and focuses more on 2-man drills. Sounds like youve already nailed the coffin shut, but if you have an open mind, there is atleast one person on this forum that trains there who can give you more info.

7

I think several things have impacted this trend.

First, the rising popularity of Mixed Martial Arts. I think you will see more traditional Chinese Schools close while the MMA gyms survive. I believe that this is just a trend though.

Second, the economy is bad. With rising gas prices everything is more expensive these days and it’s harder for a small business like a martial arts school to survive.

Third, people are more lazy these days and don’t want to put in the hard work that is required at a martial arts school.

Forth, some people think forms are useless.

8

It is a sad state of affairs for TCMA schools at the moment. I think the reason kids classes are booming and adult classes aren’t is that parents will pay the money for their kids to go and get excercise (instead of sitting in front of the tv) much more willingly than spend it on themselves. What i think has been working at a few schools i saw in my search for a school after i moved to MD was that classes with parents and kids together were pretty successfull.

However, doesn’t this bode well for the future of CMA? If you have all these kids learning at a young age it means that when they get a little older there will be more of a demand for CMA than there currently is. Of course that doesn’t help ppl looking for a school right now.

9

Thats funny.

10

I think it’s a lot of reasons - the price of gas, having to travel distrances for a good school, the cost of training - a lot of schools take advantage of students with price for testing, fees for sparing gear, and other hidden costs. If you look at movies these days, there’s more action films and not so much an emphasis on martial art action films: Seagal, Van Damme, Ninja movies, the Karate Kid, are all a thing of the past. It’s more some martial arts with guns. There’s no “Kung Fu the Series” or “Vanishing Son.”

Finally, Americans are more overweight than ever. Joining a school and sticking with it takes effort and many people are looking for a quick fix with some flash.

11

All sorts of McDojos are closing? This is sad why?

Good riddance.

12

Took a little look at this site and was amazed. The price was about $80-85 dollars a month!!!:eek:

Is that high or about the norm these days?

Just wondering…

(and not to point out this school, it was just the link I followed)

13

i would agree with you if it was just the McDojos. Its been my experience that they are the ones that are weathering the storm. It seems that the legit schools are suffereing more. I think that the McDojos tend to be better in the marketing of their schools whereas many of the “good” schools tend to have the “the proof is in the pudding” approach. Whether this is true everywhere i can not say but it was true where i used to live. I haven’t paid too much attention to schools other than mine since i moved to MD. This of course also goes back to the kids. Kids like sashes (belts). So you end up creating belt factories in some of the schools and that keeps mom and dad paying and the Mc Dojo survives.

I once spoke with a woman that ran a TKD school and she said to me that she hated that so many schools turn out such high ranking unskilled students. So i asked her why the students progress so fast if they aren’t good enough. She said that many of those kind of schools get funding from the AAU but one of the requirements for the funding is that a certain percentage of the students attending have to show progress. So they pass them to keep their funding. That could be another reason for the longevity of the McDojo.

Honestly i don’t know if the AAU thing is true. That was just something someone told me.

14

That’s the norm and actually a little bit on the cheaper side from what understand. I do know that what Master Bill charges is super super super SUPER cheap. Like crazy cheap. Of course, the COL in general is lower in Lexington though.

15

It’s really about the economy

Martial arts is a luxury in America. When the economy is bad on the middle/lower economic classes, attendance drops. It’s happened before. Fix the economy and all sorts of wonderful things will bloom again, including martial arts.

The rise of MMA hasn’t really shown much economic impact on the traditional martial arts. It has shown more impact on the health clubs than anything, just like TaeBo did a few years back. The demographic for MMA is too narrow. Actually, TaeBo had a more significant impact because it had sex appeal. MMA has some sex appeal, in a sort of brokeback way, but it’s more of macho appeal, like boxing really. TMA has a much broader appeal because it grabs the young and old. It may surprise you tough-talkers here, but the bulk of bill-paying MAtists are just in it for healthy pastime, especially with kids and those slightly past their physical prime. Most parents look at MMA cage fights and are turned off. That’s not what they want to put there kids into. Since MMA is very physically demanding, it requires far more time on task than most people can invest. For them, some ‘useless forms’ are very useful. Like wushu (and who else would compare MMA to wushu but me?) there’s not much money in it because the demographic. Generally, it’s only the teens to thirty-somethings that has the time and the energy to invest seriously in these arts, and they seldom have a lot of bank, accept on the upper end, and that’s when they tend to start looking for something a little less hard. Of course, there are exceptions, but looking at general economic trends, MMA only poses a threat to the timid.

Don’t get me wrong - I think MMA is great. I love sitting down with a beer and watching some good MMA. But I confess, I’m past my physical prime and there’s no way I’m ever going to get in the cage at my age. Plus my whole interest in martial arts stems from sword practice, so MMA has little to offer me in that regard.

16

For everybody that’s ribbing me about the forms thing, please understand that for people with 20+ years experience in martial arts, learning new forms is kindof a waste of time. For one thing, if you study the applications, they overlap between the martial arts.

Plus, who has the time to learn a bunch of new forms and practice them in addition to whatever forms you already practice? I sure don’t. Add to that the fact that every new school requires you to do the forms their way. Yang Tai Chi, for example, there are so many different variations.

So I think that a school where you can train in a fairly realistic manner (sparring) that doesn’t require you to learn their forms or a lot of new techniques is probably optimal. Hence something like Ring Sports United with a MMA focus.

As for what Gene said about the health thing, I think that’s right on. Most of the people I’ve met recently in schools seem to be there to get healthy and lose weight. The martial arts was just a side thing that is less boring for them apparently than going to the gym and working out. Plus, you don’t really want kids doing weights and treadmills.

For example, the local TKD schools are loaded with kids and fat teens. TKD seems to be primarily a way for parents to stick their kids in something to help them stay in shape and lose weight, and the tournament and belt aspect keeps them interested. (Oh, and not to mention the time the kids spend in TKD is like a babysitter).

Adult Tai Chi (non fighting and non contact) seems to be popular with everybody in the 35+ age range.

Plus, there is the liability thing. You teach people martial arts like they used to, and you get hurts, ouchies, sprains, broken bones, etc., and that’s a big liability. MA insurance is like the 1-2 million range, so if somebody sues you for over $2 million (if they break their neck in a throw you’re probably looking like $10 million+). This is the reason I personally don’t open a school. Otherwise, I’d open a school tomorrow.

17

schools are having a hard time here as well.

Just had lunch w/ my jujitsu teacher and found out his enrollment was down as well as mine.

I’ve only had one student quit that cited economics though. She was driving 25 miles one way and is a small business owner selling a luxury product so her busines has been slacking off as well.

Everyone else either ‘got busy’ or lazy.

A TKD school nearby has closed.

There is one little thing happening though: a TKD guy, ATA I think, has opened several tiny little schools around town…3 or 4 I think. Word is he’s not making a lot of money because he doesn’t have a bunch of students at any school but is just carving up the pie into smaller bites for everyone. On the other hand, he’s bracketing the city. This town sucks azz to cross between 3 and 7 for such a relatively small place. I have had people tell me they didn’t want to come to a class on the other side of town.

I’ve been debating closing down and trying to get back into a rec center. I’ve been in the black exactly one month out of 18…

18

Something strange is going on besides just the health craze and all that. It really seems like we’re in a mini-recession or something even though most people out there seem to have jobs. I’ve noticed that there’s a lot less stuff going on in general. (Stuff meaning everything from horseback riding to movie going to church to martial arts).

I can’t really figure out why, though. People at work are now taking a lot of vacation now, and they just seem to be relaxing, taking time off, doing some walking around, work on the house, or watching T.V. !!!

Even the video stores are in a lackluster state. They said their sales are down due to video on demand and stuff like that.

Do you think the real cause might be TIVO, movies on demand, and stuff like that? Because it really seems like most people are just sitting at home watching T.V.!

BTW that part of NC seems really nice.

19

Where just busting on you man. Besides you’re the one who said that you didn’t want to learn a bunch of useless forms. Having as much experience as you say you have, you should know that the back bone of any Chinese Martial art or style is it’s forms.

20

Well, I have to say that I don’t really agree with that. The way that a lot of Chinese martial arts are taught are starting with forms and then going to techniques. But it seems fairly obvious, doesn’t it, that the people who invented the forms started with technique and then went to forms?