TCMA Survival

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

Greetings,

The 20th century was one where we saw the rapid spread of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts, TCMA, beginning in China with the founding of the Chin Woo and the Nanjing Central Kuoshu Institute and similar institutions and then blossoming with Chinese migration across the world, foreign interest in TCMA, and the opening of diplomatic relations with Mainland China. While it is nice that there is widespread interest in TCMA, for it to survive will it be necessary for it to go back to becoming a family art/sect art as many styles were in before the 20th century?

Please share your views on this.

mickey

2

No, instead it should become based on evidence. I agree there is a gray area where successful healing is hard to measure. But there are far too many quacks out there preying on the ill and desperate. Medical personnel must be accountable for their actions.

3

Greetings Cataphract,

I am talking about the martial, not the medical. :slight_smile:

I do agree that the emerging alternative therapies need to be evidence based. There have been those that did produce evidence that were not embraced because of $$$. Gerson therapy is one.

mickey

4

[QUOTE=mickey;1295319]Greetings,

The 20th century was one where we saw the rapid spread of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts, TCMA, beginning in China with the founding of the Chin Woo and the Nanjing Central Kuoshu Institute and similar institutions and then blossoming with Chinese migration across the world, foreign interest in TCMA, and the opening of diplomatic relations with Mainland China. While it is nice that there is widespread interest in TCMA, for it to survive will it be necessary for it to go back to becoming a family art/sect art as many styles were in before the 20th century?

Please share your views on this.

mickey[/QUOTE]

There will always be a place for TCMA as exercise in the mainstream BUT yes, I believe that in regards to fighting arts that TCMA will survive as “family styles” unless they take the sport route.

5

If it’s not practical for tactical it will not survive.
There is still room for growth and change.
That is the thing about a lot of traditional things, they kind of “break their own feet” and become anachronistic.
At some point, if you don’t keep developing and working on an art, it dies out.

Having roots in tradition and being open to continued growth is good.
Thinking that it has all been done and is to stand like an ancient monument in defiance of time is kind of foolish.

For definitive proof of this, I present to you the modern world. :smiley:

6

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;1295324]
For definitive proof of this, I present to you the modern world. :D[/QUOTE]

Did Atlantis Really Have Indoor Plumbing?

Video URL Below:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/videos/category/history/did-atlantis-really-have-indoor-plumbing/?no-ist

7

[QUOTE=MightyB;1295327]Did Atlantis Really Have Indoor Plumbing?

Video URL Below:
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/videos/category/history/did-atlantis-really-have-indoor-plumbing/?no-ist[/QUOTE]

lol.

As far as can be told, Atlantis was either a straight up myth, or it was the civilizations that existed in central america.
Tenochtitlan fits the description quite well. But no indoor plumbing.

8

[QUOTE=mickey;1295321]
I am talking about the martial, not the medical. :slight_smile:
[/QUOTE]
LOL :wink:

On topic, I don’t think it makes much of a difference. The idea of the Kung Fu hero is deeply ingrained by Wuxia films now, so that there will never be a shortage of people practicing the forms. Arts like TaiChi changed fundamentally during the last 150 years and spread around the globe. Is it a traditional art? Is it a Chinese art? Maybe in a hundred years people will speak about “traditional American” MMA? I think what we will see is a lot cross pollination.

9

[QUOTE=mickey;1295319]Greetings,

The 20th century was one where we saw the rapid spread of Traditional Chinese Martial Arts, TCMA, beginning in China with the founding of the Chin Woo and the Nanjing Central Kuoshu Institute and similar institutions and then blossoming with Chinese migration across the world, foreign interest in TCMA, and the opening of diplomatic relations with Mainland China. While it is nice that there is widespread interest in TCMA, for it to survive will it be necessary for it to go back to becoming a family art/sect art as many styles were in before the 20th century?

Please share your views on this.

mickey[/QUOTE]

I believe that TCMA systems can survive, but IMO they will never gain the mainstream popularity and acceptance of other categories of MA, such KMA and JMA, and especially the standard arts recognized in MMA; BJJ, Muay Thai, boxing and wrestling. Well, technically, BJJ IS a part of JMA, but that’s another discussion. Historically, TCMA has been insular in comparison. Sure, there are successful Kung Fu franchise schools, but they’re relatively rare, and many of those are actually Karate schools masquerading as TCMA. And many actual TCMA are not available everywhere like other MA.

And Kung Fu movies no longer inspire kids/young people to actively seek out Kung Fu training like they did in the '70s and '80s. It’s a different world now. Young people want to do what their role models do, and more often than not, those role models are MMA fighters and other sports figures. For TCMA, that could be both good and bad. There must be an emphasis on the quality of students that DO come to TCMA and their development, over sheer quantity of students.

And yes, TCMA needs to continue to evolve to grow. Otherwise, fewer and fewer people will be willing to invest the considerable time, hard work and sacrifice for something they view as irrelevant and obsolete. Because whether their opinions are correct or not, the reality of declining interest/participation is still the same.

10

I’m not sure it’s accurate to say TCMA is dying. I think there is a challenge in defining the space or segment that TCMA is going to have to target (in the USA).

IMO TCMA classes can do a better job of attracting new students if the instructors figure out what niche they want to satisfy in the market. For example, I keep thinking about how Yoga is filling a need for people who want a semi spiritual traditional physical exercise and how authentic Tai Chi fits that same demographic. Yoga is extremely popular with millennials. So what could authentic tai chi instructors do to grow in the millennial market?

or look at the success of Shaolin in China. Are there (marketing) ideas that we could take from there to grow here?

Wushu / Gymnastics … same demographic.

So again, the challenge is figuring out who is the ideal target customer, and how do we attract that customer?

11

Yes. I agree TCMA survival will be based on evidence (by Cataphract). So if more TCMA students participate in open tournaments, and end up with good result, not only will traditional art survive, it will long live and prosper.

Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

12

Perhaps it is time to let some systems that have out lived their relevance die. Just make them museum pieces and move on.

13

I made a post long ago. Telling you to keep your arts alive. Ill say it again. KEEP YOU ARTS ALIVE !

How you do it or what path you take to achieve that is of little importance. If you are a keeper of your art then the task falls on you, my friends. It’s survival is simply up to you.

14

chinese martial arts will go on without tightey whitey.

15

:smiley: you funee chinee guy. I don’t know about the other styles but WingChun is being kept alive in the movies.

16

[QUOTE=PalmStriker;1295447]:smiley: you funee chinee guy. I don’t know about the other styles but WingChun is being kept alive in the movies.[/QUOTE]

Hi.

Wing Chun won’t have any problems with its survival because it’s the most famous, popular and widespread CMA system in the world after Taiji. When most non-CMA people even mention CMA in a martial context, they are almost always referring to WC.

17

Nice to see you posting again Bwang.

18

Truthfully all the traditional arts regardless their origin likely took a significant hit after the Gracie’s and the UFC. It leads many people maybe most people to believe traditional arts have no effectiveness. Simply not true.

A while back I was corresponding with a BJJ guy I believe in the Washington State area. He told me he really misses the traditional arts. Said he walked away from them. He studied Japanese/ Chinese arts. I forget which, for 20+ years and then jumped the Gracie band wagon and slowly left it all behind. He said, he tried for awhile to keep his traditional school open but eventually the BJJ classes over took the others and he stopped teaching and practicing the other stuff and focused solely on BJJ. He said he regrets it now. His hips and knees are screwed up for all the ground work. He said it really has taken its toll on his body.

Anyway. I love all the arts and appreciate most of the people in them.

19

Greetings,

I thank those who kept the subject matter on topic and serious. And I thank you for your points of view. I have found that TCMA requires a level of immersion that may be best honored by stating at a young age. Additionally, progress may be faster because the commercial aspect ($$$) is removed. Liability costs are removed. It is simply hardcore training over a course of years. The fighting traditions are kept intact and advanced. This does not mean that someone who practices within the family/sect is shut off from outside training. Right now we do not have the structures that will allow such training that disciplines such as ballet and gymnastics have.

Going all out public means that some things are sacrificed: healing modalities particular to certain styles, deadly techniques, alchemy, etc.-- important components for the full development of the human being.

mickey

20

I agree that it’s best to start CMA when young.

In my observation and experience, it also helps to come into CMA training with previous training from outside of CMA. Of course there are exceptions, and many may argue the contrary. But I’ve simply noticed that those who come from a considerable karate, judo, boxing, or other background that emphasizes a lot of sparring, IF they are physically and mentally adaptable, often progress faster in CMA, especially in the fighting aspects, than many people who’ve only trained CMA. I know that my own previous karate, judo and kickboxing experience helped me when I got into CMA, and I’ve seen it that way with others as well.