Obviously couple of threads have been people getting tired of MA and CMA, the way it’s headed today. Quite honestly, I feel the same way.
As a whole as martial artists, how can we change this attitude that we see coming full swing into the MA world? Obviously, ONE of us standing alone isn’t working.
What can we do?
Can someone explain to me what “this attitude” is exactly?
Lack of enthusiasm for wanting to fight?
Lack of enthusiasm for tough training methods?
“What can we do?”
About what?
Scotty1.
This is another one of thoe topics where the opinions will head in different directions.
The way I see “Attitude” varies and is driven by the persons view of what they perceive MA is supposed to be.
Personally, regardless of Destination I think there should be an “Attitude” of training hard and bettering oneself.
Similar think being discudsed on E-Budo, which is even a bit more confusing as JMA have Bu-Do & BU-Jutsu concepts, but in rality both can refer to the same thing/style.
B4 we can discuss where MA is heading we first need a common definition of MA and what it is supposed to encompass.
My opinion differs from Members like MerryPrankster, Red5Angel and others.
Just my view.
Well, I just want to know what the supposed problem is.
The MA of today should be shot in the back of the head and put out of its misery. The sickening commercializaton, Hollywoodization and watering down of the arts has made them, on the whole, little more than a pale reflection of what they once were meant to be.
Respectable training halls are few and far between. Only the serious MA can recognize McKwoons for what they are and find the one good training hall out of a hundred. Now all we have are glorified baby-sitting services that cater to frenzied adults who think that by putting Little Johnny in a McDojo he’ll suddenly start making better grades in school and stop torturing the dog at home. :rolleyes:
Using MA to change the psychological outlook of social deviants is NOT what they were intended for. They were–and are–places to learn self defense. Period. Yes, through careful instruction a person may learn humility and respect, but those are secondary benefits that arise from the primary instruction and assimilation of self-defense.
"The MA of today should be shot in the back of the head and put out of its misery. The sickening commercializaton, Hollywoodization and watering down of the arts has made them, on the whole, little more than a pale reflection of what they once were meant to be.
Respectable training halls are few and far between. Only the serious MA can recognize McKwoons for what they are and find the one good training hall out of a hundred."
Ah, I see.
Well, as long as there are people like Aussie Jon and Evo fist learning an authentic art from a ‘proper’ Sifu and continuing on the lineage I can’t see what else can be done.
Is it that there are any less respectable training halls or that they are just harder to find amongst the crap?
Think of it as signal to noise. Are there less signals, or just more noise? I know there’s a lot of fluff surrounding the MA, but was it ever any easier to find a respectable training hall ‘then’ than it is now?
I don’t have a clue, I’m only a baby, this is all I’ve ever known.
Frankly, I think there’s more noise, due to the overwhelming commericialization.
But that’s what I mean. Just because there’s more noise, does that mean there’s any less quality instruction, or does it just mean that you have to sift through a lot of chaff before you get to the wheat?
or do you think that perhaps some wheat has had to turn into chaff just to survive, commercially, therefore ensuring that people who teach for the art and not for the money are more difficult to find?
Right. You have to search longer and harder for quality instruction than ever before. Too, the McDojos and McKwoons are getting better at hiding their true purpose since they must fight each other for a finite amount of dollars in their local areas. This contributes to the noise ration, IMO.
It’s true, you do have to shovel a lot of snow to get to the cabin.
There is a preponderance of schools out there that offer a variety of Martial Arts to train in or to learn as a hobby. Many of these are of the hobby variety and yes, many are just baby sitting places with parents that hope learning in a disciplined atmosphere will help their child become a better person.
In and of itself I do not think this is a bad reason to send a child for lessons. THe environment of serious training hall will definitely have an affect on the childs behaviour. This behaviour can be reinforced further with a parent taking an active role in the childs learning.
Many serious Kung Fu schools will not start a student on the more demanding aspects of the style until they are of an age of understading fully and taking responsibility. THis is dependent on the maturaty and character of the child.
There are also other types of schools that do not offer the type of training you can find in a traditional no BS Kung Fu school. Frankly, I don’t think that 90% of the people can handle or understand what is required to achieve Kung Fu in anything. Society is rife with lazy folks stuffing cheetos and cokes down their gullets trying to get home in time to watch Jerry and the hillbilly love trysts.
Such is the Human condition. Laziness and apathy rule the day. Only the individual can change the individual. This is lost on many. People seemto think that if they attend and listen they will somehow magically absorb skill merely by being in the presence of it. Kinda like a churchified view of things.
In the school I attended, for every one student who stayed longer than 5 years, 250 students would leave in the first year. This is the reality that smacks people in the face when they want to learn how to move like Jet Li, Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan or some other figure they aspire to mimic.
So, in the end, be happy that you are training and that you like training. It really makes no difference what everybody else is doing. THey aren’t you, you aren’t them, just continue. If you want to stop, then stop. But keep in mind that with training, every day lost is another day of non achievement and in fact the more you miss out on your training cycle, the worse you will become until you must start again at the beginning.
peace
“The sickening commercializaton, Hollywoodization and watering down of the arts has made them, on the whole”
Budokan, I sympathize with you, the problem is everything is being hypermarketed and commmercialized. In the US, I dont know if you guys have this problem elsewhere, it is finally come down to the almighty dollar. MA for example, how many people teach JUST to teach? Sometimes its what you want to make your living at, and I can respect that, but even the martial arts has fallen to the quick fix, I want now society.
For me it isnt just the martial arts, its EVERYTHING. I look around me everyday and am disgusted by over marketing, commercialization, publicizing, selling, its effin ridiculous! Americans cant live thier own lives anymore, they must have them lived for them. Look at the popularity of “reality” shows, its pathetic, get up of your azzes and live your own **** life for a change!
I say someone pushes the big red button and we start over…
“lazy folks stuffing cheetos and cokes down their gullets”
Wait a minute! Besides Wing Chun, that is my favorite past time!!!
I am afraid thems fightin words Kung Lek, you have asked for the orange powdery fingers of death to come visiting, and it will, in a bright red and white bubbly package…
I really like your attitudes guys.
I really do want to tell you to get into the MA world and say your piece. Start writing to magazines, write some books, etc. At least try to voice your opinions and get em out there.
complaining about it (while justified) won’t change anything.
Gotta do.
Ryu
I couldn’t agree more. Americans have reached a nadir when it comes to vicariously living their lives through the scripted movements (and, yes, they are scripted) of television personalities on so-called “reality” shows.
It’s a real shame, and speaks volumes for our instant-gratification oriented culture. People are more obsessed with grabbing 15-minutes of fame than working to build long-term stability in their own lives.
I had thought that the events of 9/11 might wake the nation up as a whole and bring them around to a realistic philosophy not drawn directly from television. Sadly, all I think it did was widen the gulf between seriously-minded individuals who accept on principle that life ISN’T a freakin’ televison program, and those who think that Karmic happiness can be gleaned by watching slack-jawed troglodytes air their dirty laundry on Jerry Springer…
Sheesh…
If I didn’t know any better, I’d think I’d walked into the forum of 80 year olds kvetching about the younger generation…
We’ve reached a nadir of human existence? 90% of people today are lazy? Disgusted by marketing and overcommercialization?
At worst, I’m entertained by the marketing and overcommercialization. For every 100 people they bring in, if there is one serious student that seeks out something better we’re doing alright.
Heck, maybe they wanted a family activity. Anything wrong with the local McTKD franchise providing that? A little run of the mill TKD is a good intro and not all bad–so long as we don’t play the end-all-be-all game…
Do you REALLY think people from 300 years ago were composed of better stuff somehow?
Another example of idealizing the past… It had its good and bad, just like today. And just like today, there were a very small number of people at the top of the skill/dedication range, and a large chunk in the middle and some dishonest folks at the bottom.
But to be disgusted? Outraged? to use words like Nadir and percentages of laziness that approach most of the human race?
Hm.
The problem is that our society has enforced the bad habits in people, made them lazier. Do I think that people were better 300 years ago? I think they had to work harder and and so appreciated life more. Some may have hated it but there are those types now.
Need Proof? America is now the FATTEST nation in the world, only technically beat by Samoa, who carry a genetic predisposition towards fatness.
However, Americans watch tv, watch movies, drive everywhere, take escalators, elevators, buses. Americans eat more fast food then any other nation, drives more cars then any other nation, thats percentage based not population based. But its spreading, Europe is fast catching up to our fatness and laziness. Its just our society encourages it through and through. Arent ‘pretty’, are have any ‘talent’, watch tv, escape from your life by playing video games and locking yourself in you living room with the television. Why think for yourself.
Is TV a drug? My wife was talking yesterday and said to me “I hate the tv, when I come home, if I turn it on, I dont want to turn it off.” Some people get regular ‘doses’ of tv, some have watch thier shows…
Sorry MP, you optimism is laudable but I dont feel the same way you do about our society. It can do some great things but is drifting slowly away from that to, now it is becoming a platform for self serving greed and laziness the world has yet to see.
Where’s that razor?
Personally, I think two of the most irritating things in the martial arts today are the constant bickering and lack of dialogue among practicioners. If it’s not intra-style p!ssing and moaning over who has the TRUE undiluted form of the art (Not that this ever happens in Wing Chun, mind you:D ), it’s just shouting matches between traditionalists and modernists or whatever two groups are in vogue at the moment.
Man, you’d think that this whole martial arts business was a religion unto itself sometimes…
Now, I’m not saying that lineage isn’t important or that frauds shouldn’t be rooted out, or even that the traditional methods don’t work (au contrare, I rather like my traditional training)-- but the simple fact of the matter is that, in the grand scheme of things, we’re all doing the same thing. Why be so divisive and hostile towards any sort of discussion that isn’t a carbon copy of your own views? Heaven forbid that we actually learn something through dialogue :rolleyes:
Anyhow, that’s my personal pet peeve. Now back to the regularly scheduled discussion.
Originally posted by red5angel
Sorry MP, you optimism is laudable but I dont feel the same way you do about our society. It can do some great things but is drifting slowly away from that to, now it is becoming a platform for self serving greed and laziness the world has yet to see.
You know, I remember reading a quote from a Sumerian scribe nearly 4000 years ago that ran something like “The world is coming to an end-- children no longer obey their parents and everyone is writing a book” (paraphrased, of course). The point is, this accusation seems to be leveled at somebody else every couple years. Remember, in the 50’s rock and roll was seen as degrading, lewd, and even satanic. Did the world end because Elvis dared to play some ripped off blues songs and shake his hips?
Okay, moving on…
I think Merry raises a good point when he says:
Originally posted by Merryprankster
[B]Do you REALLY think people from 300 years ago were composed of better stuff somehow?
Another example of idealizing the past… It had its good and bad, just like today. And just like today, there were a very small number of people at the top of the skill/dedication range, and a large chunk in the middle and some dishonest folks at the bottom.[/B]
This is another thing that irks me-- the idolization of the past. Do you really think that society’s fallen so far in the last 150 years? I sure don’t.
There’s always been lazy, ignorant, unmotivated people, but they never make it into the history books. All we remember are the ones that stand out, the exceptional ones-- be they exceptionally good or exceptionally bad.
go fight or go write…
it seems that what many define as the ‘problem’ with cma, is more of a dislike of modern society and its values.
we live in a world of fast food and information overload. like kung lek said, for every 250 bad students, there may be one good one. i think it has probably always been that way, not just now. and sure there’s a lot of junk out there, but half the fun is learning enough to recognize the good stuff, a rewarding part of the process. in the end, the shallow commercialized arts and misconceptions will be just that, and the real quality stuff will remain intact and understood by the few that are willing to work hard enough and look far enough. things that work and are useful will not become extinct. things may evolve as they always have, but the core will remain. i know i train hard…why should i care if everyone in society doesnt train like a shaolin monk or understand martial arts? if someone cares enough, they can and probably will figure it out. if you don;t like the arguments over ‘traditional -vs- mma’ then just go do your own thing and ignore it. but if you choose not to partake, you will forfeit your points of view and certainly won’t prove much or effect the outcome of people understandings of cma.
i think ryu has a great point and attitude; if you really have an issue and feel strongly that something is wrong with the state of cma, then figure out what to do and go do something about it. peronally, i think the ‘problem’ is beyond cma, i think its just the way modern society affects cma. whining about it just makes you sound like like a grumpy old man yearning for the past, as prankster pointed out
personally i think the modern world is fun, i like the overload and exposure that it brings. i like the cheezy martial arts flicks and video games that misrepresent the ‘true’ fighting arts. i even like to watch modern wushu athletes and the fact that i can fly to bejing to see it in the olympics. would being confined to one small village and its family style somehow be a superior and more desirable living situation for your society? things were better like that back then? not for me. you can have your museum quality forms and training. i have done plenty of that too and i enjoyed it, but i don’t care to be mired in the past with a great albetross of tradition to uphold. the beauty of it is that i don’t need to because many of you will do that for us, because thats what you like to do, and thats wonderful. i like to learn it and then move on and go try to apply the knowlege and techniques to the modern world. different personalities are a good thing. but just because i don;t want to spend my life kissing some masters ass, doenst make me or others with my attitude somehow beneath the pedantics of society.