Jasbourne,
You said you throw all your punches straight out from centerline.
Is that all you do? Do you have uppercuts or hooks or anything?
What about kicks, does your style kick?
Sorry if I am being nosey, it actually sounds like you study a pretty cool style.
Try boxing…it will help you lose weight and it will actually teach you how to throw a real punch. Those spinning flying crescent kung fuey kicks will get your fat little hefer butt handed to you on the street.
- WesternBoxer
LOL, man I understand the defensive tone and all, after reading this thread, but that’s harsh. I’m sure the spinning flying crescent has a very poor chance of landing, but how many boxers are watching for kicks? Seriously, not a troll, or even a comment to prove anything against Boxers, I’m just wondering.
OK, so the tension seems to have subsided, so I can throw my opinion in here. I’ve got a few friends that have trained in boxing, as well as running into a few boxers that wanted to add another dimension to their arsenal (namely knees, elbows and good clinching techniques, but some wanted the kicks as well ;)), so I have some vague sketchy knowledge about the style/sport. They are by no means professional level (not even amateur in most cases), but they know enough to show me some things. One of the better boxers has taught me a lot (as well as lending me a lot of Ali footage to check out) about boxing, mostly power generation, and footwork. Not so much about the theory and tactics, though. He’s one of the best fighters I know, and when we spar, he’s probably up near the top (along with the other guy that’s training for MMA).
From what I’ve seen the power generation from styles like boxing praying mantis, and some of what I do in northern Shaolin is pretty much identical as far as the principles (using the hips, torque, body weight instead of muscle, etc), but the details are different, that’s all. Boxing’s strength is the fact that the training is so focused on using the power generation for only your punches, they improve and become much more practical faster than most other styles. If there was a weakness, I would have to say that the defense is mainly focused against punches as well, but if they knew how to gauge distance against a kicker, they would really be a powerhouse fighter.
My friend (from above) is a killer on the inside, but his strength is his boxing footwork, used for bridging against other kickers (he knows the game, so he controls the ranges). He’s got that Ali style ghost jab that can bridge through my kicking range, and after the jab lands, he’s gone (he hits, then off angles behind his opponent), so you’re wide open for some punishing combos. Knowing this, I used a lot more leg kicks and jams to keep the breathing room between us, and another mistake I used to make all the time was trying to shut his hands down, rather than shut his body down. He’s got some Muay Thai experience as well, and his front and side kicks are killer. I don’t make that mistake as much anymore, but I learned more from sparring him than I learned from sparring most martial artists from other styles.
When I work the heavy bag, I mainly use the Kung Fu style kicks, and other techniques like elbows, and knees, but the punches have a definite boxing influence now. I still throw in plenty of knife hands, and open palm strikes, but the jab, cross and hook are very prevalent. Of course they’re all in praying mantis and northern Shaolin as well, but I use them more often than I used to because of my experience with a few boxers. So in a way it has influenced me, but I’ve never been to a formal gym with a formal coach, so I don’t tell anyone that I know boxing, because that would not be showing the sport much respect. I just tell 'em that I’m influenced by the sport.
Boxerchick and JazBourne,
It sounds the same, but it is quite different. I’m no expert on boxing, but if I understand the machanics, the punch moves with the body and uses body unity to generate power where as a Wing Chun punch the body moves first and the fist follows creating a whipping power.
Highlander, right on the money. WC does indeed utilize “whipping power”.
Boxerchick, no we don’t have uppercuts or hooks or techniques of that sort. What we have are a series of principles we follow that continually place us in a position to utilize ‘whipping power’ whether we are punching, striking with open palm, elbow, grabbing, trapping, eye gouging, whatever.
Yes, we have kicks. Often, we are using both hands and one leg simultaneously. None of our kicks are fancy, we never kick above the waist (why waste time putting your feet where your hands already are?), and our combat range is close in, same as western boxing.
We train VERY hard to maintain control of range - inside of kicking distance, outside of grappling range - contact range, a place that has about 4 to 6 inches of give, max. We have specific principles that put us consistently in that space, and help us adjust to maintain it. Footwork is incredibly important for that control of distance. We train to ‘feel’ what the opponent does, rather than see it. In fact, one of our advanced training drills is to cross hands blindfolded.
Girl, if you like body mechanichs and precision, you would LOVE wing chun!
Highlander
I think BoxerChick and JasBourne have found the common ground I think really exists.
Actually, the hook, uppercut and overhand right all have a little of that whipping power. It’s not emphasized like it seems to be in wing chun, but it’s not DE-emphasized either, and you aren’t told not to do it. You learn to throw a hook, and the body moves just ahead of the punch itself to generate the most solid power and impact. Same with the uppercut. My overhand right is lousy, so I won’t talk about it. Having seen it thrown by guys that do it well, it DOES look like the body moves pretty well ahead however.
I don’t want to jump on the “we have that too,” band wagon. I’m just trying to emphasize again, that it’s far more alike than it is different. Just because Wing Chun emphasizes increased whipping power does not change the FUNDAMENTAL nature of the power transfer from the feet to the hips to the torso , which is probably 80-90% of the strike itself.
Merryprankster,
I really hesitate to repond to this because there are so many variations on the way WC is taught and what is emphasized that I fear I will get a thousand responses saying that I am wrong and it is done this way or that way. So let me start off by saying there are different ways and none are wrong or better, just different.
Now as far as common ground, descriptions may be decieving. First off, WC does use hips and body twists and torque for power, but not always. The power in WC comes from the elbow.
Actually, there are several ways WC generates power. As far as the difference in the power, let me illustrate:
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Picture a baseball player batting a ball. The motion starts with knee, then hips and shoulder and out to the bat. Contact is made with the ball midway through the motion. Thereby adding the kinetic energy of the body to the impact (a body in motion tends to stay in motion).
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Now picture the motion of a whip. As the arm moves forward, the tip of the whip follows. It never catches up until the arm stops. Then it passes the hand and strikes. I know that some people aren’t going to believe this, but the whip is recorded as the first machine to break the sound barrier because that is what creates the crack at the end of the motion. This utilizes E=MC2 Where E = Energy, M = Mass, and C = speed. Therefore double the speed and generate 4 times the energy. Triple the speed and generate 9 times the energy. It also uses the principles of a top where the point spins at one speed and the top which has a larger diameter spins at a much greater speed.
It is my understanding the Boxing utilizes number 1 and WC utilizes number 2. Quite different.
Skip the E=MC^2
C is a constant–the speed of light. That equation has no particular bearing on this subject
I understand your point though, but I have to disagree. The POWER generation still comes from the feet through the torso–and THAT particular animal is what I’m driving it. What you do at the end of it is going to be specific from style to style, but the method of power generation itself is far more generally applicable.
I want to make sure I don’t misunderstand–are you saying wing chun power comes FROM the elbow or is it expressed THROUGH the elbow. That’s a COMPLETELY different animal.
Originally posted by Merryprankster
I understand your point though, but I have to disagree. The POWER generation still comes from the feet through the torso–and THAT particular animal is what I’m driving it. What you do at the end of it is going to be specific from style to style, but the method of power generation itself is far more generally applicable.
Very true. I think that 10 % makes a lot of difference though. IME, when sparring a boxer, they tend to stay a bit ****her than me. They’re real good at staying just outside of reach, coming in for a nasty combo, and then hopping back out. Almost like they’re hunting you. If the fight stay at this range, I get slaughtered.
If I can get to the inside, I’m a lot more comfortable and usually do better. The punches I’ve learned are shorter, straight shots. Almost like whole body rabbit punches. If I can get inside and stay there, I usually fair better.
There’s the difference in strategy as I see it. I also think the slight differences in the mechanic are more in line with each arts philosopht on what you should be doing. Again, not better. Different.
Water Dragon–the guys you’ve been fighting are apparently outside fighters. There are inside fighters, and they like to be up close. Find a short, stocky boxer, and he’ll be stalking you down, looking to get inside and hit you with short, hard shots. Watch some of the early (read ‘good’) Tyson stuff, and you’ll see an inside fighter.
So, really, it’s not even a matter of philosophy–it’s a matter of personal preference.
Now, where I DO agree with you is that method of delivery will make a difference in fighting philosophy. That’s just flat out true, regardless!
Originally posted by Merryprankster
I want to make sure I don’t misunderstand–are you saying wing chun power comes FROM the elbow or is it expressed THROUGH the elbow. That’s a COMPLETELY different animal.
I stand corrected on the E=MC^2.
I don’t quite understand what you mean by FROM the elbow or THROUGH the elbow. All I can tell you is my Sifu says generate power from the elbow. Basically when we strike we focus on pushing with the elbow. A WC fighter should be able to stand with their back to the wall and generate power in their punch without loosing contact with the wall. We do not use the shoulder to generate power in our punches (obviously the shoulder does play some part or the arm couldn’t move, but it is minimal).
ATTN: Wing Chunner. Come on guys help me out here. I know there are some of you out there that know what I’m talking about but can explain it better than I can.
MerryPrankster
Interesting. Do gyms tend to promote one specific style? Truthfully, all the Boxers I’ve sparred have come out of one gym. Whaddya think?
Both yes and no.
A good trainer will try to help you be proficient in all areas. They’ll help make your strong points stronger and your weak points less so. That said, the heavyweight that teaches boxing at one place I know of teaches something that looks quite a bit different than the lighter guy I go to. I think you tend to teach what you know, and the guys that you teach absorb that, and pick up little bits here and there, and use what works for them, and when they teach, they teach THEIR boxing, on down the line, and that gets adjusted and so on and so on.
So yeah, I think that one boxing gym could teach a guy to dance and another to come inside.
Hello Boxerchick
I’m sort of a boxer. 
IMHO Boxing training is a faster way to develop fighting skills and body conditioning/Endurance.
Kung Fu is Amazing but unlike boxing it will take alot longer to become good at it.
After 3 months of boxing a fighter can become good, while after 3 years of MA a fighter can still suck.
This of course all depends on the teacher , student and the style.
I myself Love and respect all Fighting Sports and Martial Arts.
WC uses the shoulder!!
We just don’t extend it away from the plane of our torso. In other words, we don’t reach with the shoulder. But yes, we use the shoulder muscle, yes we turn the torso and the shoulder travels through space. What do you think all the stance turning is for? Anyway, we are visualizing the same thing, but the semantics of “WC doesn’t use the shoulder” are completely wrong.
-FJ
as far as i can explain it, the wing chun punch gains its strength through structure. that’s why we say our power comes from our feet. the overall structure of a punch with the elbow out is intrinsically less strong (not the power of the punch – i’ve eaten many a hard right cross).
think on this: the shoulder is one of the most, if not the most, flexible joints on our bodies. for sheer stability, the shoulder is strongest with the elbow down, à la wing chun’s lin wan kuen (straight arrow punch, the singular version of chain punches). the shoulder loses structural strength as the elbow begins to point outward more.
wing chun also takes advantage of the elbow-down position and uses it for its wonderful wedging capabilities. think about a sledge and a splitting maul. the maul, when given energy, splits through the wood, analogous to wing chun’s ideal of wedging off offending limbs, hoping to get to the meaty center of the attacker.
which is more important to wing chun – the integrity of the shoulder or the wedgingness – is up for discussion, but we can do that later.
back to the elbow. or soon. because the shoulder is strongest when the elbow points down, it is most capable of transmitting the power that good, solid footwork can provide. if it is as a weak angle, much of that power will be lost. if it is at a strong angle, more of the power will be transmitted through the arm and into said attacker’s meaty center. if i’m correct in my conclusions, it all boils down to physics and anatomy.
however, physics also tells us that inertia can give us lotsa power, too. a good, solid hook can be tremendously powerful if the legs, hips, torso, shoulder and tricep are all used properly. i believe it can be reasonably more powerful than a typical wing chun punch. this is mainly because of the momentum the punch can gain through greater distance traveled before target and power gained by using the torso natural twisting motion. a hook with just the arm moving looks and feels silly, and it doesn’t generate much oomph. add a good twist of your trunk and there’s a strike with some poop to its stuff.
i guess it’s time to make some conclusionary effort. wing chun knows it’s punches probably won’t generate the same kind of end-it-all power that a lot of boxing punches. however, the wing chun chain punch is just one of the strikes we have. to that, i say rubthefaksau. wing chun willingly accepts slightly less power for the stability and the use of the elbow for our delightful wedging efforts, which spawn that better-than-chocolate-cake stuff called chi sau.
this is not to say that wing chun is better. all martial arts make certain sacrifices in order to obtain certain benefits. i get upset when people say one style is better, especially when they’ve only done that one preferable style. i like it when people try several, find one or two and stick with them for GOOD reasons that make sense to and for themselves.
oh, and keep in mind, all these statements are from a guy who studies ggm leung ting’s wing tsun, so my statements about wing chun in general may be not broadly accurate. the typical boxing-type punches i write about are grounded in my years and years doing tae kwon do as a kid and teen. tkd punches are standard enough, methinks.
one thing to add to that: by strength of the shoulder, i did not mean brute force sourced at muscles like deltoids, pecs, etc. i mean structural integrity (no star trek jokes, please). as in, the knee is structurally weak from either side, and thus can be screwed if struck from either side.
Thanks guys for jumping in here. I was feeling a little over my head trying to explain this.
yes, but buddha:
Would you describe the power generation of wing chun as being significantly different than some other style? That is, is the power transfer from ground to torso in an analogous strike (no sense in comparing the right cross to the hook, etc) so fundamentally different that a person in another style would look at and go “gee, how the heck does that work?” (see my non-ma example above)
I think all strikes rely to a good deal on proper structural integrity. I can FEEL the difference when I pivot properly on a right cross and have a solid structure behind it. There’s a giant difference to me.
Also, just IMO, I think a proper hook is a relatively “short” punch when thrown properly. The distance between it’s start and it’s finish is not very big. But I do understand what you are saying, so I’m not really disagreeing with you
yeah, you’re right on the hooks. i was just using it as an example. but it can work for a right cross, too, because there is a weight transfer that adds power and a rotation at the hips. heck, even wing chun has a hook and an uppercut, and a good deal of power on these is from the hips.
however, taking two of the most similar and common strikes in boxing and wing chun – the cross and the chain punch – and we can break down the similarities and the differences:
similarities
- both are straight (the chain punch slightly moreso)
- both use the body to help generate power
- both use the tricep as a huge power source by extending the arm through the target
differences
- the power gained from footwork in the chain punch is from moving the whole body as one complete structure, and thus power is found in using the body’s most stable and structurally sound angles and stepping forward through the target, but …
the power gained in a right cross’ footwork is gained by transferring the weight to a stationary point (the front foot) and transferring that momentum all the way out to the fist.
- the integrity of a wing chun punch is based on the strongest available angle for the shoulder. this is why baseball players get rotator problems so often – a ballplayer can throw a ball exceptionally fast, but if the shoulder is not properly warm, the whipping motion on a weak and awkward angle of the shoulder causes said player to park his bum on the bench after his doctor tells him he tore/screwed/demolished his rotating bits.
both of these lists can be a heckuvalot bigger, but those, i think, are the important parts. in all generality, you’re pushing your fist through someone’s face, using power generated from your whole body. how the power gets there and how the fist is composed isn’t as important as the ugly dent you’re inflicting upon someone’s grill. 
and i just realized my language up there sounds really arrogant about wing chun. it’s not meant to be, and i’m too hungry to change it right now (lunch time). rest assured that, with the exception of tae bo, i have a great deal of respect for any martial goodness. it’s with individual stylists that i begin to make my distinctions between stout fellow and worthless sunomobeach.
so please forgive me if i sound like i’m saying wing chun is the best thing since sliced bread. i don’t mean to sound like it.