Having read so much and spoken with a few people, there seems to be an overwhelming concern/belief that the WC punches, with their relatively short range of motion, lack power.
I would like to hear opinions that prove this assumption/view wrong as I am considering taking WC, but I also now have this concern & am thinking quite seriously about taking Muay Thai or KB instead.
Why those two choices? If not wing chun, then muay thai? Theyâre pretty different in nature. If youâre looking for something thatâs a lot like muay thai, I donât think wing chun is it.
That having been said, Bruce Lee was one of the more famous practitioners of wing chun (albeit probably not the best exemplar of the style). Would you say that he lacked power?
Hi JThorne,
It really depends on the practitioner in question. No one here is going to admit that Wing Chun punches lack power, and thereâs no way to prove or disprove the notion over the internet. If you are interested in checking out WC, check out a few local schools and ask the instructors (assuming theyâre socialble) about short power or inch power. Then ask them if they can give you a little demonstration. Then decide for yourself.
Regards,
Zhuge Liang
Originally posted by Tak
[B]Why those two choices? If not wing chun, then muay thai? Theyâre pretty different in nature. If youâre looking for something thatâs a lot like muay thai, I donât think wing chun is it.
That having been said, Bruce Lee was one of the more famous practitioners of wing chun (albeit probably not the best exemplar of the style). Would you say that he lacked power? [/B]
Tak, why something similar to MT? thats not what I asked, I am looking to decide on & find a âpowerful strikingâ style. Clearly I am drawn to WC or else i wouldnt have been in this forum for starters.
Re Bruce Lee, well he was great & we all love him but you see, I dont have 15 hours a day for 15 years to train and develop that debatable 1 inch punch/push, & I dont see myself using such a technique in the nasty ugly reality of an attack on the street.
also re Bruce, he was somewhat unique and therefore your example is a bit of an extreme one good sir.
My concerns are mainly due to 2 things,
Zhuge Liang, good points, thanks for your reply
Hi JThorne,
Punching âpowerâ is momentum, which is mass X velocity. Ultimately, the ONLY way to maximize punching power is to maximize momentum, and there are many factors that can be manipulated to achieve thisâŚ
Increase Velocity-- There is no way of punching that will inherently get a fist the same distance in less time than any other punch. Two punches can have different SPEEDS (for example, a straight punch will always hit before a haymaker when theyâre thrown by the same person from the same origin to the same target with equal intent), but speed has no effect on momentum.
Improve Accuracy-- More specifically, âmake the velocity vector field of your punch as perpendicular to the target as you can.â This is not just a matter of âhitting the targetâ, but going directly into your target and not grazing off the side at too high a degree. Every velocity vector will have two components, that which is perpendicular to the target, and that which is parallel to the target. The parallel component is negated because in truth, momentum equals mass X velocity X the sine of the angle between the target and the velocity vector/attacking line. Imagine trying to stick a needle into a sheet of paper⌠Would your endeavor be more effective by sticking the needle directly into the flat side of the paper, or trying to stick the needle into the nearly one-dimensional edge?
Increase Mass-- More accurately, âincrease weighted massâ. The mass variable in the momentum function is (the overall mass of the attacker) X (% of mass being applied), which is the weighted mass. This is what the Wing Chun people call âbody unityâ because when you punch, you try to maximize the percentage of the body that is moving forward. Alright, hereâs one more variation of the momentum equation (my apologies!)⌠You can sum several momentums in a single system! For example, when you punch while standing still, your momentum is ACTUALLY V1(velocity of the attacking arm) X M1(the amount of mass that is moving at velocity V1) + V2(mass of the rest of the body) X M2(amount of mass moving at velocity V2)⌠In this case, V2 X M2 is 0 because your body has a 0 velocity. However, if you can move the rest of your body forward, you can add to the overall momentum of âthe systemâ, that system being YOU.
Improvement of the Significance of the Mass/Velocity Interaction-- Essentially âgood structureâ. Wing Chun folks keep the shoulder and elbow down because to keep them raised, you have to keep a positive upward velocity in those joints to counteract gravitational force. And every unit of energy spent keeping your shoulder and elbow up COSTS YOU one unit of velocity in your attacking velocity vector field. âStructureâ also includes hitting the right target with the right tool. You want to hit the softest target with your hardest weapon, which will ensure that you donât âlet upâ with your velocity for fear of hurting yourself (conditioning is useful).
Improvement of the Dual-Source Momentum Interaction-- The relationship between the momentums of you and your target. Essentially, when youâre hitting, you want to MAXIMIZE the difference in momentums⌠when being hit, you want to MINIMIZE it. The only way you can increase the momentum difference is by ensuring that your attack is as POSITIVE (going into the opponent) as possible, and that the targetâs velocity is as NEGATIVE (coming toward you) as possible. In Wing Chun this is achieved by attacking while your opponent attacks⌠So long as youâre attacking the right target with the right structure, youâll be able to inflict as much damage through momentum as possible. Minimization of the difference in momentum is making sure that when youâre attacked, your velocity and the velocity of the attack are both negative (or positive, depending on your point of view). This is achieved in Wing Chun by turning.
To lay your fears to rest, I explained above that the âpowerâ of a punch is determined by velocity and mass. DISTANCE IS NOT A FACTOR! It doesnât matter if you use a âshort range of motionâ, so long as your velocity WITHIN that range of motion is high (a cultivation of something called âexploding powerâ, which most Wing Chun people practice, I think).
I hope that explains things for you. Sorry itâs so immersed in physics, but metaphysics isnât my forteâ.
JThorne- differentwing chun folks punch differently. Power varies with method used and user. True for boxing too- not all boxers have top quality power.
Punching the air and punching a wall bag are two quite different things.
If your alignmnent is right, and know the importance of the elbow in the punch and punch straight and up to shoulder level and
not snap your elbows upward or downward you should do fine
in punching air. If your elbows give you trouble- stopâ you are doing it wrong.
What art should you take? Dunno- get the best instructor that you can get. Searching for a good instructor is very important..
JThorne- differentwing chun folks punch differently. Power varies with method used and user. True for boxing too- not all boxers have top quality power.
Punching the air and punching a wall bag are two quite different things.
If your alignmnent is right, and know the importance of the elbow in the punch and punch straight and up to shoulder level and
not snap your elbows upward or downward you should do fine
in punching air. If your elbows give you trouble- stopâ you are doing it wrong.
What art should you take? Dunno- get the best instructor that you can get. Searching for a good instructor is very important..
Power
In our Wing Chun training, the development of energy (internal and external power) is addressed through: Hei Gung - for cultivating energy - and Fa Jing/Faat Ging - for releasing that energy. Energy cultivation, through certain training methodologies, is guided by what some might refer to as idioms - two examples would be: from my understandingâŚ
Loi Lau Hoi Sung (generally means: retain what comes, escort what goes); this references the idea of yin and yang - flowing, in other words.
Lut Sau Chi Chung (generally means: energy off, energy on); this references both soft and hard energy.
These two idioms help the practitioner develop their own sense of power appropriate and specific for any given application. In every motion these two idioms bring functionality and combat reflexes to fruitition, so long as you stay true to the methods being taught. These two idioms are both deep in meaning, and at the same time very simple.
Energy alone is influenced by structure. To decide what serves your purposes, it would be best to learn about the structure of a Wing Chun punch, then see how that influences your energy. Wing Chun structure is based on minimal motion. If you find it difficult to get accustomed to this, you must start off with larger motions - for example basic jabs and crosses.
It is much more easy to feel the level of power required to do these things, because the more space you use to more energy you can develop, and the more you will feel at first. Though I must stress this is a basic level of functionality, albeit devastating and real when used properly, Wing Chun movement and structure goes back to teaching us how to accomplish the same thing (instantaneous, explosive power) with less space, proper structure and movement.
Think of it as starting off with big motions, then working your way down to smaller, more compact motions. It is like going from gross motor skills to more sophisticated and refined skills. I think this would probably be the most appropriate path to take to appreciate both sides of the fence.
To offer the progression that I train in the HFY system, we go through these basic steps:
Body Mechanics - gross motor skills, basic drilling movements
Techincal Knowledge - reinforcing step one with more specific details and refining those motor skills and attributal training
Skill Challenges - testing structure, reaction and energy against a live opponent. In this step, everything is tested. You either pass or fail.
â1) the short range of motion on the punchesâ
Punches, be they boxing, MT or WC, are not thrown with the arm alone. The entire body from the toes to the knuckles is involved. The mechanics of the three arts differ, but each can result in a powerful punch. âInch powerâ is the coordination of all those various parts of the body into a compressed space and time.
"The âinch punchâ is a demonstration of that ability. It is incorrect to assume that WC somehow forces you to use only extremely short range strikes. It doesnât.
WC is not the only art that practices this. I know a Russian MA guy who could hit me at least as hard with a âzero-inch punchâ as anyone else ever has.
Remember short strikes allow you to telegraph your intentions less, and you can fit in more strikes in a smaller timeframe. But there are ALWAYS tradeoffs, whatever anyone says.
Practicing FULL POWER strikes with FULL EXTENSION into thin air can damage your joints, though his is generally more common with kicks than punches due to the mass of the leg v. the arm and the lower level of fine muscle control.
Whoever told you that WC people donât hit bags and pads is wrong. We do plenty of bagwork. If you take up MT or boxing, youâll be doing plenty of rounds of shadowboxing anyway so if your assumption was correct youâd be stuffed anyway. Fortunately, your assumption is wrong.
To me, the art is less important than the knowledge and teaching skill of the person teaching it. If thereâs a good MT school and a crap WC school in your town, Iâd send you to the MT school every time. Also, different instructors suit different students. You need to find an instructor that suits you.
BTW, Bruce Lee also did MT and boxing and incorporated them into JKD - though what exactly he has to do with any of this escapes me.
Good luck!
Originally posted by JThorne
[B]
My concerns are mainly due to 2 things,
[/B]
Try both and compare.
I presently train both wing chun and thai boxing, although wc has been my core training for some years.
I can relate the following from my experience but in the end going out there and taking a few classes in both is worth a million words.
As others have said the sort range of the wing chun punches is complimented by your body mass, so if you weigh 80kg and your moving into your opponent with the strike a lot more power can be generated than if you were stationary. The wc punches also are not (IMO) designed for a one hit one kill scenario, however at a short range you can deliver a lot more of them while creating your own fence or guard in front of your body (centreline theory). This reduces the risk of copping a counter strike. WC hand strikes also bridge well into shorter range elbow and knee strikes, which IMO are similar in some ways to MT elbows for short range power.
When practicing in the air any strike whether punching or kicking its not a good idea to lock your joint out to full extension. This causes hyperextension of the joint and can lead to injury. IMO you definately need to incorporate bag or focus mits into training to work on power, something MT does very well.
If you choose the MT path (depending on the club) there will be a greater emphasis on conditioning and fitness. The skills may be picked up quickly with a lot of hard work (sparring, skipping, running, bag and focus pad work) and little theory to produce excellent striking skills. In MT you would also be entering a âglovedâ training style, so a lot of the checking in absorbed on the gloves or evaded.
If you choose the wc path then there is a lot of emphasis on theory and forms (again in most clubs/kwoons). WC will also incorporate a large variety of hand blocks and trapping skills, rather then evasion (weaving, etc). In the longer term hopefully this enables you to develop skills trap or tie up you opponents offense and strike from advantage.
Personally its all good, as long as you can find a good instructor.
the short range of motion has nothing to do with itâs power. In fact that is precisely where part of the power comes from.
Those who only see the short distance of travel fail to realize most of the force âgoes throughâ due to this and that other things are also in play such as stance shifting, waist torque, elbow forceâŚ
Hereâs an easy way to prove to yourself which as more power, boxing/Thai boxing or wing chun. Grab a baseball or softball. Throw it using the mechanincs that one would use when hitting in boxing/Muay Thai. Then throw it using the mechanics taught in WC. It will be obvious which produces more power.
Knifefighter
What do you really know about the mechanics taught in Wing Chun above the usual surface views on the subject?..Anyway!..
With good instruction and technique,Wing Chun punches ARE very powerful.No doubts about this. It is the same for any other striking styles.Some practitioners are good ,some are not so good.
Re: Concern about the power (or lack of) in WC punches
Get somebody whoâs good at Wing Chun to punch you at short range with full body power. From your hospital bed youâll have plenty of time to reflect on how your concern about the lack of power in a WC punch was alleviated.
Originally posted by JThorne
[B]Having read so much and spoken with a few people, there seems to be an overwhelming concern/belief that the WC punches, with their relatively short range of motion, lack power.
I would like to hear opinions that prove this assumption/view wrong as I am considering taking WC, but I also now have this concern & am thinking quite seriously about taking Muay Thai or KB instead.
[/B]
stevo is saying what all the other guys are saying but in a cruder way 
Knifefighter sez:
((Really? Ever watch baseball players fighting?
BTWâthere are many kinds of power-context is everything))
Re: Concern about the power (or lack of) in WC punches
Originally posted by JThorne
[B]Having read so much and spoken with a few people, there seems to be an overwhelming concern/belief that the WC punches, with their relatively short range of motion, lack power.
I would like to hear opinions that prove this assumption/view wrong as I am considering taking WC, but I also now have this concern & am thinking quite seriously about taking Muay Thai or KB instead.
[/B]
My 2 centsâŚthere are different kinds of power that can be expressed in a punch. It can be like âcrackingâ a short length whip, like âcrackingâ a longer length whip, or like swinging a baseball bat to name a few. Each does damage in its own way and its use depends on context, as Joy stated. Wing Chun has its own structure and context for how it produces power in a punch. The power is certainly there. For those that donât understand the structure and context, it may appear to be weak compared to other styles. But it is not!
Keith
I would only add that in Wing Chun we are not concerned only about degrees of power or force, but we also specialize in precise and appropriately timed application of whatever degrees of force we have. I also agree with those whoâve noted that skills and abilities in these areas will vary widely. In other words, Stevo is correct.
Regards,
i have answered everyones points one by one below but would like to say that the overall impression from all replies combined is a very defensive attitude, in other words âOur/My WC is the best/undefeatableâ etc etc, this certainly makes me question things.
Marky very interesting stuff indeed & very scientific, all your points noted & understood, thank you.
yuanfen good points, yes I have heard that the instructor is possibly the single most important aspect. is this because of personal âchemistryâ between student & him?
Savi points about âEnergy/iesâ noted, a bit too involved imho, believe me, when you are being attacked in the street by capable & nasty people, you will not be contemplating the various types of energies. My interest in MAâs is not for the aesthetics or great benefits of cultivating chi et al, I want real self defense.
anerlich it wasnt me who mentioned Brucee 1st (surprise surprise), good points otherwise & thanks. Oh, on the subject of Bruce Lee, I went to 1 WC club only to see several sad wannabe twats in the full Bruce Lee / Jet Li suits, that is a bit OTT if you ask me.
namron excelent points, thank you
EmptyCup, Knifefighter, old jong good points, noted.
Stevo your answer is an adolescent one, no worries but i would guess that you are clearly in your teens, i hope for your sake you donât walk around with a serious âfalseâ sense of security.
Keith thanks for replying, I believe you
thanks for all your replies
Less of âchemistryâ-
more of differences in levels of knowledge of the art, willingness to share and the the studentâs ability to critically understand
and develop.
I state these things as I see themâŚI am not consciously at least defensive. Who knows what lurks in my unconscious- who knows who knows-the shadow knows! I learn from those with quite different viewpoints in all quite varied subjects of my interest not limited to wing chun.