I think you’ve been given some very good answers here.
The only thing I would like to add, is that I think it’s unwise to separate the WC punch from the rest of the system for analysis.
Despite what you’ve seen on TV or in the movies… Most people can not take an upper-gate strike to the head. You can train and build up all the muscle power you like. But when a WC punch hits you on the temple, it’s over. You took the long road with your Muy Tai round punch, the WC’er took the short road, and that big punch of yours never even got a chance to be used.
For instance, in the not so distant past, there’s a well-known fight between a Bak Mei master who dropped in on a Pan Nam WC school in China. I’ve seen the Bak Mei master… he’s basically a square… absolutely massive. However, when he visited this Pan Nam school, he got way too ****y and it turned into a fight. The WC’er redirected the Bak Mei master’s strike with a Tan, and followed up with a temple strike. And that was it… over end of story.
This is not some Kung Fu fairy tale… We have had visitors to our school who on their trips to China have stopped in on this school, and have seen his blood stain on the floor from where he went down. The School has left it there.
For you to say that what Savi wrote is too much info and aesthetics, and that you want something more for real combat is very naive. What is more real than training your arms to be whips with conditioned striking points on the ends, and having your muscle memory be trained to automatically detect an opening like water finding a leak.
I must say, that I also agree with Joy on the importance of the Sifu. Marky gave some very good technical knowledge, but without a Sifu this knowledge will not transmit into the body.
And btw… I’ve yet to meet a capable street fighter… That is a myth. You might find someone with a naturally powerful punch, or somene who knows how to use their mass, but that’s about it.
True power in WC comes very late, developement wise. You first have to build the SNT structure…cordinateed, and directed at the correct target (relaxation for speed). A linked body accelerated at a single point produces plently of power.
2 solid hits from a person who understand WC power generation well is going to lay u flat.
If you dont have the patience WC requires for power, id advise MT or KB.
well folks, some very good answers and I am taking note.
Can’t say I’m convinced of WC being too good though.
i was just reading another thread in the Reality forum and someone there (a WC practitioner) commented that with trapping, there are only 1 or 2 types of punches that indeed can be trapped, his words were “don’t try trapping against a hook, a jab or cross or even a haymaker”, i have to ask that if this is the case, why learn traps?, i mean these tend to be the most common of all punches thrown by some untrained thug, no??.
STeebas, at what point did I mention patience or the lack of it?
in fact I regularly & patiently watch a great Sil Lim Tao training video with a few additional energy drills and a few demos of application and enjoy it thoroughly,
it’s just the system on the whole looks a little bit weak.
On another note, why do so many ‘Non Chinese’ folks wear those Bruce Lee / Jet Li suits??
Originally posted by JThorne it’s just the system on the whole looks a little bit weak.
JThorne,
I appreciate the feedback, and in relation to your comments to me, I was addressing how to train and develop it. That is quite different that addressing real time combat application and reflex.
As cliche as this may sound, “Don’t knock it 'til you try it.” Though there are many different versions of Wing Chun out there, there is no single Wing Chun system that represents the rest of them. They are all different, and no system is better than any other. Period. What makes one system better than another is the person using it.
Take care in your search for what suits you best. What’s important is that our own happiness is what has to be served.
learn traps b/c they do work if the opportunity presents itself. Always better to know more even if you don’t ALWAYS use it than to be lacking in the event that you need it
Also traps train reflexes and touch. Problem is even the term “traps”. It does not always mean causing an opponent to have his arms pinned. Trapping trains the flow you do use in fights such as your hook example. Traps do work when you are up close and flanking your opponent. Anytime you are close they work b/c you can control the arms. Often those untrained thugs you speak of they are weak against this…
Traps train the positioning as well as being efficient with the block and attacks. So even if it may seem like they are not being used the theory is still there. Hard to explain on this medium but just take my word for it
Originally posted by JThorne
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it’s just the system on the whole looks a little bit weak.
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Wing Chun does not have to look tough!..Why should it?..
And…trapping… :rolleyes: Is only to be considered as the very first .00001% of what Wing Chun is about…(IMH O) of course. But these things are essential to learn offensive /defensive lines.
i was just reading another thread in the Reality forum and someone there (a WC practitioner) commented that with trapping, there are only 1 or 2 types of punches that indeed can be trapped, his words were “don’t try trapping against a hook, a jab or cross or even a haymaker”,
Total bollocks.
Traps are about taking the opponent’s balance as well as pinning his arms. Anything they swing compromises their balance. It is not dependant on type of attack thrown!
Originally posted by Marky To lay your fears to rest, I explained above that the “power” of a punch is determined by velocity and mass. DISTANCE IS NOT A FACTOR!
Originally posted by yuanfen
((Really? Ever watch baseball players fighting?
He was asking about power generation. Throwing an object is a demonstration of this.
“Power = mass x acceleration x distance/time” KnifeFighter
I put quotes around “power” because I wasn’t literally talking about power. Your equation is correct, but it has nothing to do with the damage done by a punch. When most people talk about the “power of a punch”, they’re talking about the damage dealt (momentum) of a punch, not the rate of change in work of a punch as a function of time as you’ve written above.
On that note, the power function has nothing do do with distance either! Power is a function of the RATE OF CHANGE in distance over time, not the distance itself. In other words, power is based partially on velocity… much like momentum, as was discussed earlier.
they’re talking about the damage dealt (momentum) of a punch
I would say theres much more than momentum involved, when we are talking about damage of a punch. Size of “hit-area” for example (think of 20kg spear and 20kg bowling ball).
And “grounding power” with proper aligments of course… to cancel that nasty opposite force of our punch.
In a comparison of pure power I dont think a WC punch can equal a boxing/MT punch.
Can it still be powerful enough to do the job ? Yes.
Thinking purely in terms of power though is a little one dimensional. It’s an important factor in a weapon definitely but not the only one. Also important is rate of fire and speed of delivery. The WC punch more than makes up for slightly less power by excelling in these other areas IMHO.
power ,
how we get so easily enamored buy the load smack on a bag or pad . but what is power in the context of a combative situation ?
and how much power is really necessary ?
how much power does it take for a eye jab for example and how much do we lose in emotional and physical recovery should we miss?
in a combative situation power is to be able to inflict damage on a moving aggressive opponent while you yourself are in motion .
to do so in a way that is not over committed , that over commitment can be from the body mechanics required to generate such a huge strike , or from a certain posture you must have to pull of said strike , or even and more often then not the emotional build up to generate ‘’ power ‘’
think of power as something with surgical precession , just enough to stall ,destabilize , freeze or shut down the opponent , yet not so much that you are left wide open trying to recover your position ,balance ,emotional make up .
power is the last thing on the list in the game of timing, position , and control . if you become skilled at setting up your shot , instead of firing wildly , then you will have the time and position to deliver the necessary power .
what good is power with out a delivery system. wing chun along with other arts develops that delivery system , so don’t get caught up on the ‘‘whack’’ of the punch , look for the consistency of the shots .
p.s.
I have trained in mt , boxing , savate all have different idea’s on power and how to use it , each has gaps in the recovery , I find wing chun has by far less gaps and greater interuptability and adaptability .
the wing chun punch is hard to get right. most ppl do it wrong. it’s much easier to learn the technique of a jab/cross/hook than it is for perfecting the components that make up the wing chun punch’s structure and ging. If you look at the way JKD ppl do it I have yet to see one do it “right”
you say “better delivery system for power shots” what do you mean by that? better to set up power shots as in easier to punch? or more powerful punches? if it’s the latter which specific punches are you talking about?
