Originally posted by EmptyCup it’s much easier to learnthe technique of a jab/cross/hook than it is for perfecting the components that make up the wing chun punch’s structure and ging. If you look at the way JKD ppl do it I have yet to see one do it “right”
I disagree. It’s very hard to learn to throw boxing punches correctly. Most JKD people don’t do these right either.
Originally posted by EmptyCup you say “better delivery system for power shots” what do you mean by that? better to set up power shots as in easier to punch? or more powerful punches? if it’s the latter which specific punches are you talking about?
I believe all the punches of boxing (with the possible exception of the jab) are more powerful. This is because boxing uses the much the same mechanics of every other athletic activity that generates maximum power in a horizontal, or nearly horizontal, plane. Many defenses in boxing are also designed to set up for more powerful punches.
What about the fact that that boxers are conditioned or not conditioned because of the gloves??? Boxers breaking fingers when punching something barefisted is almost a cliche’… On the other hand many KF practicioners can punch concrete with all their might, and be fine. This kind of conditioning in itself is very effective.
Originally posted by duende Boxers breaking fingers when punching something barefisted is almost a cliche’… On the other hand many KF practicioners can punch concrete with all their might, and be fine.
Punching concrete is much different than hitting the head of a live, moving opponent. Fingers/hands/wrists are usually broken when the punch lands slightly off-target due to head movement and/or roundness of the skull. Most boxers can hit a flat surface with an ungloved hand as hard or harder than most MA practitioners.
Agree and disagree with knifefighter. Boxing punches are not easy to learn. Developing a first class jab or a completely straight quick right and making the hooks crisp are not easy.
But ITOH- learning a wing chun punch is not easy either- actually it is more difficult to learn it well compared to a boxing punch.
It takes quite a while to develop the explosive wing chun “short power” or
explosive one inch or zero inch power. Demos dont do it justice- because demos try to show people flying backwards. At close quarters boxers often have to push to get punching room… a good
wc person should not have to.
Originally posted by Knifefighter Punching concrete is much different than hitting the head of a live, moving opponent. Fingers/hands/wrists are usually broken when the punch lands slightly off-target due to head movement and/or roundness of the skull. Most boxers can hit a flat surface with an ungloved hand as hard or harder than most MA practitioners.
I’m going to disagree with you on this one only in that I think boxers break there fingers on flat surfaces too. This is because they get used to angling there wrists in such a way with the gloves on, which at the same time causes them to loose structural support of all of their knuckles. Not all boxers mind you, but enough to mention.
Also I think over time they become dependant on the taping of their wrists.
just my observations… I’m no boxer, but I do know a few.
I don’t think a straight/cross has as much power as a vertical wc punch.
the wc punch is structurally stronger than boxers who throw punches horizontally
if you have a wc guy who’s not pro training punches on a canvas bag barefisted comparing punches with a guy who’s not pro boxing all wrapped up with gloves on a leather bag, I’d choose the wc guy
for those who think I am ‘putting down’ WC in anyway, you are wrong, I was simply concerned about the very short ROM involved with the particular WC punches that I have seen.
In all honesty looking at the whole system (or more than just the punches) I think that WC is very clever and aesthetically beautiful, i can also relate to the centre line theories, the directness, economy of motion & subsequent efficiencies.
Just concerned about it lacking power, thats all.
Some VERY good points about learning boxing punches as well.
finally, why do so many folks wear those Bruce Lee / Jet Li outfits/suits?? (non Chinese folks that is)
Originally posted by Marky
[B]“Power = mass x acceleration x distance/time” KnifeFighter
I put quotes around “power” because I wasn’t literally talking about power. Your equation is correct, but it has nothing to do with the damage done by a punch. When most people talk about the “power of a punch”, they’re talking about the damage dealt (momentum) of a punch, not the rate of change in work of a punch as a function of time as you’ve written above.
On that note, the power function has nothing do do with distance either! Power is a function of the RATE OF CHANGE in distance over time, not the distance itself. In other words, power is based partially on velocity… much like momentum, as was discussed earlier. [/B]
KnifeFighter had it correct if you express the equation in terms of distance travelled, delta-d, in interval of time, delta-t.
Mass x acceleration is = Force.
Force x distance travelled = Work done.
Work done / Time taken = Power.
It’s not easy to use such a simple equation to calculate the force or power of a punch anyway. It would probably only apply to just the fist alone and therefore not consider body structure.
To use such a simple equation would mean working out an effective mass or acceleration to account for body structure/linkage, which would be difficult. Alternatively you would need some kind of “complex” connected model of the human body … any bio-mechanics people out there?
Mass x acceleration is = Force.
Force x distance travelled = Work done.
Work done / Time taken = Power.
Hmmm… so if my fist is slowing down (a<0) when it hits the target the power is negative
Consider also a bullet fired from a gun. It has negative acceleration after it leaves the barrel. Would my punch hurt more if it would have acceleration of say 10 m/s?
Nope. Acceleration has nothing to do with “power” of a punch. Well, not if we observe the fist or body performing the punch. Then it is better to use momentum (as explained by Marky). Instead we could possibly observe what happens to the object or surface we are punching. How does acceleration of this object change and what distance does it travel and in what time…
knifefighter- I dont like to debate the merits of wc-prefer discussing the details of wc- but
on punches- again it depends on details.
In some(not all) kinds of horizontal punches involving forearm
muscle twisting the full explosive power is not released and remains with the twisting of the muscles. With sufficient shoulder loading such punches can work and even knocka person out but
are not as penetrating in their damage as a "fajing"motion.
Knifefighter’s equation is correct, but is it relevant to how much damage you can do with a punch? For example, according to the power equation, you could say that acceleration and distance DO matter… However, they only matter because it is acceleration over a distance that determines the velocity at a certain time. The work equation regarding an attack is based on the distance you can move an opponent of a certain force (mass X downward acceleration due to gravity). But what if he just drops to the ground and doesn’t move horizontally at all? Does that mean your punch did no damage, simply because no work was exerted on the target. And since his overall velocity backward is 0 (no change in location), so your punch had no power (mass X acceleration X 0), does that mean the guy who’s curled in a ball and crying and squealing on the floor isn’t feeling any pain?
But as I conceded above, distance DOES play a secondary role in momentum… If your punch has a high acceleration over a short distance, you can have as high a final velocity as a slowly accerated punch over a longer distance.
The work we’re talking about here is an equation of interaction… when we say “work = force X distance”, we’re talking about the distance a TARGET is travelling when that target has a certain mass and an acceleration due to gravity of 9.81m/s^2. This work is not the distance BETWEEN the attacker and the target. I also don’t see how you could relate that distance to the amount of work done, but I could certainly be missing something (as is often the case) and I look forward to input.
Also, you’re right that we can’t get too specific with actual numbers and every single little factor. I see our discussion as a flow chart, not a schematic. If that’s where this is heading, I won’t have any ammunition to debate with!
You’ve got some good points and I’d like to answer them, but I’ve got to go out now. I’ll have a think overnight and try and answer them to the best of my ability. It’s been ages since my college Physics classes, but it’d be fun trying to apply it to martial arts.
Regarding equations of force. I may be able to lift, say 200 pounds, but that doesn’t mean I can hit with 200 pounds of force. (Although, you may assume I can.)
And another thing. My first punch doesn’t necessarily do as much damage as the second and third.
It’s been ages since my college Physics classes, but it’d be fun trying to apply it to martial arts.
Maybe we should maka a new thread for this. There’s probably people who would like to discus about physics in MA, but just arent looking it in wc-thread…
Can anyone (CFT, Marky, yuanfen) explain “fajing” motion in terms of physics? I have heard a theory that it send a wave-like motion through your body, and causes this “penerating” power… what do you think?
Originally posted by Knifefighter
Five years WC training back in the 80’s.
That’s interesting, I had almost the exact opposite experience. I spent 4 years boxing, then 3 after that kickboxing. I generate a substantially greater level of force with the wing chun punches that I use now than I ever did using boxing mechanics.
hi guys, as a disabled person i am not so concered about power, to me placement , where you hit and getting that first
punch in is more impotant, i tend to favor the wing chun jab punch a bit though not all the time. to shake the person up then follow with 5 0r six punches in a blitz type attack peace russellsherry
Originally posted by JThorne for those who think I am ‘putting down’ WC in anyway, you are wrong, I was simply concerned about the very short ROM involved with the particular WC punches that I have seen.
Consider, however that the opponent will face similar problems.
The difference is that WC practices for short range power more than most other styles. If they withdraw their hand further to get more acceleration time, they end up losing out on speed & positioning.
The key is to encourage a situation where both sides are similarly hampered.
