What you think?
http://deathserenade.blogspot.com/2011/10/is-wing-chun-really-effective-in-ring.html
He makes a good point about wing chun lacking reach.
He also makes a great point about relaxation being the result of experience in pressure situations over and over again and not something you can just tell yourself to do.
Also, great points about set-ups, and follow-ups.
One thing he leaves out is the inability of wing chun to develop maximum power.
[QUOTE=thedreamer7;1212061]What you think?
http://deathserenade.blogspot.com/2011/10/is-wing-chun-really-effective-in-ring.html[/QUOTE]
I tout it was very ordinary.
His whole premise was that if a WC guy just relaxed then everything would work out just fine!
I thought it w nonsense
Is Wing Chun (TCMA) really effective in the cage?
Just had this discussion in the class this morning. If you want your style to be able to use in the cage, you have to learn how to take advantage on the cage wall such as how to jame your opponent’s body against the wall. How to use the cage wall to your advantage and to your opponent’s disadvantage. Until you have trained that, your style has not fully adapted into the cage environment yet. The cage fight is a “3 dimension limited space fight”. It’s not just a fight on a flat open stage.
Ya, I agree that relaxed is good for somethings, but is only part of the equation.
He is totally missing the part about finding the other guy and delivering when needed.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1212062]
One thing he leaves out is the inability of wing chun to develop maximum power.[/QUOTE]
Your opinion on this is limited by what you are exposed to.
[QUOTE=GlennR;1212067]
I thought it w nonsense[/QUOTE]
A bit harsh this guy was someone who competed in Muy Thai professionally for 7 years. His points must be worth something…
[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1212070]------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your opinion on this is limited by what you are exposed to.[/QUOTE]
My opinion is informed by a knowledge of how power is produced. Producing maximum power in a horizontal plane requires full body rotation.
Watch Mike Tyson in his early years for one of the best examples of how to do this to produce maximum power. Compare this to the centerline punching of wing chun and you will see the difference.
[QUOTE=thedreamer7;1212071]A bit harsh this guy was someone who competed in Muy Thai professionally for 7 years. His points must be worth something…[/QUOTE]
He probably would be more credible as Muy Thai opinion , like one the of the lads said, you can’t talk about things you don’t know about.
If he knew anything about wc he would know why it does not work good for sport fighting. Sport fighting is all about the rule set, and training within that rule set.
When you can generate
- 100% power into the thin air, that’s the “fake you”.
- 50% power and hit your opponent, that’s the “true you”.
It’s better to be able to deliever 50% force and hit the target than to deliever 100% force and miss the target. TCMA is more than just power generation. There are timing, opportunity, angle, and balance as well.
[QUOTE=Robinhood;1212074]He probably would be more credible as Muy Thai opinion , like one the of the lads said, you can’t talk about things you don’t know about.
If he knew anything about wc he would know why it does not work good for sport fighting. Sport fighting is all about the rule set, and training within that rule set.[/QUOTE]
WC is a martial art and like other martial arts can be adapted for the ring. As an experienced fighter and not someone who claim’s street experience, his opinions on how to adapt WC to the ring or street is useful.
Point here is to learn from each other and no be insulting otherwise we won’t build up a good knowledge base on this forum.
Also it seems he has been learning WC from some solid leanage, so I believe he must know a thing about WC…
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1212075]When you can generate
- 100% power into the thin air, that’s the “fake you”.
- 50% power and hit your opponent, that’s the “true you”.
It’s better to be able to deliever 50% force and hit the target than to deliever 100% force and miss the target. TCMA is more than just power generation. There are timing, opportunity, angle, and balance as well.[/QUOTE]
Of course there are many other things besides power generation. However, when it comes to unarmed striking (grappling is a slightly different matter), power generation is huge.
That’s one reason you see so many inexperienced fighters begin to flail when they first fight or spar full contact. They quickly realize they need a lot more power and revert to the natural instinct (flailing) to produce that power.
That’s the same reason so many people who try to fight with wing chun end up fighting “without wing chun.”
[QUOTE=Robinhood;1212074]
If he knew anything about wc he would know why it does not work good for sport fighting. Sport fighting is all about the rule set, and training within that rule set.[/QUOTE]
If one is not training for sport, but he is also not training (by training, I mean including the actual scenario) for the street by fighting/sparring full-contact unprotected, with weapons, against multiple opponents, on concrete, in different environments (and anything else that might happen on th3 stre3tz), then he’s not really training to be able to do anything at all.
Doing nothing but pretend, light contact street scenarios is not training for the street.
And, the stream of opinions meanders on.
[QUOTE=thedreamer7;1212077]WC is a martial art and like other martial arts can be adapted for the ring. As an experienced fighter and not someone who claim’s street experience, his opinions on how to adapt WC to the ring or street is useful.
Point here is to learn from each other and no be insulting otherwise we won’t build up a good knowledge base on this forum.
Also it seems he has been learning WC from some solid leanage, so I believe he must know a thing about WC…[/QUOTE]
Well you can believe him if you want, based on your experience, I will believe based on my experience, we can all read his claims, but what he says will show his real knowledge.
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1212078]Of course there are many other things besides power generation. However, when it comes to unarmed striking (grappling is a slightly different matter), power generation is huge.
That’s one reason you see so many inexperienced fighters begin to flail when they first fight or spar full contact. They quickly realize they need a lot more power and revert to the natural instinct (flailing) to produce that power.
That’s the same reason so many people who try to fight with wing chun end up fighting “without wing chun.”[/QUOTE]
Absolute nonsense. The reason for the phenomenon you describe is nothing to do with power generation, it is to do with length of time training, how ingrained the shapes etc are and how often you have exposed your training to pressure. People grow up learning to punch via movies, watching sport and milling in school playgrounds. When pressure is applied you resort to instinct unless you have replaced it with other automatic responses. The same thing happens in MT, boxing and mma when novices fight, all of their technique goes out of the window and they brawl.
[QUOTE=wingchunIan;1212092]Absolute nonsense. The reason for the phenomenon you describe is nothing to do with power generation, it is to do with length of time training, how ingrained the shapes etc are and how often you have exposed your training to pressure. People grow up learning to punch via movies, watching sport and milling in school playgrounds. When pressure is applied you resort to instinct unless you have replaced it with other automatic responses. The same thing happens in MT, boxing and mma when novices fight, all of their technique goes out of the window and they brawl.[/QUOTE]
They “brawl” because they have not yet master the mechanics of body rotation to develop power. The “brawling” is the instinctual way to attempt to develop this power.
That’s exactly why the wing chun people do this. You can see it over and over again in a variety of full contact settings in which the wing chun guy started out sticking to his straight line punches and then switched into more of a rotational “brawling” method because the original punches weren’t having any effect.
[QUOTE=thedreamer7;1212071]A bit harsh this guy was someone who competed in Muy Thai professionally for 7 years. His points must be worth something…[/QUOTE]
I stand by what I said regarding his take on WC, honestly, what advice does he offer?
Relax
That’s it?
I’ve read it again and think the post is worse the second time around
[QUOTE=LaRoux;1212073]My opinion is informed by a knowledge of how power is produced. Producing maximum power in a horizontal plane requires full body rotation.
Watch Mike Tyson in his early years for one of the best examples of how to do this to produce maximum power. Compare this to the centerline punching of wing chun and you will see the difference.[/QUOTE]
Watch joe Louis who is another murderous hitter
Full turn?
Not so sure about that… Louis was renowned for his short power, particularly his cross and he certainly didn’t over turn if you could call it that…
[QUOTE=GlennR;1212101]Watch joe Louis who is another murderous hitter
Full turn?
Not so sure about that… Louis was renowned for his short power, particularly his cross and he certainly didn’t over turn if you could call it that…[/QUOTE]
I never said anything about a full turn. I said full body rotation. By this I mean the whole body must rotate. Boxing generally produces force by rotating the entire body, but it by no means uses a full turn.
Full turns are used for producing even more power. You can see this in things like a tennis forehand, a baseball swing, or a shotput. Full turns are generally not conducive to fighting because they make it difficult to maintain defense and put one out of position for follow-up strikes.
Boxing uses full body rotation to develop maximum power, as well as to extend reach, in a fighting situation. These are its strengths. By doing this, it gives up a little bit of ability to follow up quickly with other punches as well as a little bit of defensive ability.
Wing chun doesn’t use this full body rotation. This allows for quick successions of punches and a little bit better ability to maintain defensive positions. These are its strengths. It achieves this at the expense of power generation and length of reach.