Some conversation in the Shaolin forum about sanda existing, (or not) in old Gong Fu, has derailed the dead horse beating that was going on. I thought maybe we could discuss the topic here…
From Shemmati…
[QUOTE=SHemmati;1253772]but Sanda is an ancient art! and it also looks very much the same as what many modern Sanda fighters do. closed guards, standing stances, etc. there are famous Luohan 36, 108, and 360 Sanda combat techniques in the ancient curriculums.
[/QUOTE]
From Miqi…
[QUOTE=Miqi;1253777]This is a really important, tertiary sub-text to this discussion. The great yiquan master Yao ZongXun said that the real, true CMA of the past was much closer to muay thai than to forms practice of any type.[/QUOTE]
Myself…
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1253784]
Sanda, as a training method or competition is likely thousands of years old. Sanda as Shaolin techniques is hundreds of years old. Sanda practiced as its own method in a structured curriculum has been in existence longer than Muay Thai has been in the boxing ring.
Sanda wasn’t invented by the communists in the '70’s. They just standardized a rule set and the clothing; and have been changing it ever since.[/QUOTE]
Counter points by LFJ…
[QUOTE=LFJ;1253788]There is no ancient “art” of sanda. It is a generic term used in many traditional styles for sparring or free fight training. But the techniques, strategies, etc. each art uses aren’t the same as modern sport sanda, nor the same between different traditional styles. That is something quite different. Luohan sanda or such has nothing to do with modern sport sanda, except that they share the broad term.[/QUOTE]
I think this is a good discussion…any thoughts on the subject?
[QUOTE=mickey;1253798]
Fighting is fighting.
[/QUOTE]
Which is exactly why I believe concepts and methods were the same centuries ago…(minus whatever minor, necessary adjustments are made for the gear, rules, ring,)
But how did it look? What we have presently is nothing more than civilian combatives. Field combatives required weapons. So you would something along the lines of friendly spearplay, archery competitions, strength competitions, and wrestling. No right minded king would appreciate having his top warriors killed in friendly competition. And this would not be open to civilians as you see it today.
First, as frightening as this is, in this case I would probably agree with miqi… when Chinese martial art was used for fighting “in the old day” it had less variation, was a smaller curriculum and was more direct… only thing I would suggest is that it would have looked like the old Muay Thai of the 1920’s and not the modern ring version… once you create a venue to test a method (what you guys call “sport”) it evolves
San Da, Da Lei Tai, Sanshou, Pak Gihk, etc there have always been terms in TCMA for fighting and application… but what we today think of as sanda/sanshou is not some ancient Shaolin art. It comes directly from the modern military experiment
San Da, Da Lei Tai, Sanshou, Pak Gihk, etc there have always been terms in TCMA for fighting and application… but what we today think of as sanda/sanshou is not some ancient Shaolin art. It comes directly from the modern military experiment[/QUOTE]
Modern Chinese military experiment with sanda began in the 1920’s. Muay Thai adopting western rules began in the '30’s, about the same time as the founding of the oldest Karate schools. Just for some perspective on the age of sanda as a curriculum.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1253814]Modern Chinese military experiment with sanda began in the 1920’s. Muay Thai adopting western rules began in the '30’s, about the same time as the founding of the oldest Karate schools. Just for some perspective on the age of sanda as a curriculum.[/QUOTE]
Nope, Muay Thai was in the ring in the 1920’s
Modern Sanshou / San Da started in 1925
There is a remarkably intersting comparison between San Da vs Kung fu and old THai arts vs Modern Muay Thai
Interesting points. Especially the Muay Thai comparison.
Kellen- (or anyone)- do you think the old CMA was closer to Muay Thai? northern eagle claw grab in longfist can be like a muay thai clinch (maybe applied differently in theory, but looks the same). Also a lot of basics I learned from the old longfist style are like kickboxing techniques (jab, reverse, hook, uppercut, kicking, combos, etc.) Maybe the respective governments promoted the arts in different directions (performance/ health vs. sport fighting/kickboxing) furthering whatever divide already existed?
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1253820]Nope, Muay Thai was in the ring in the 1920’s
Modern Sanshou / San Da started in 1925
There is a remarkably intersting comparison between San Da vs Kung fu and old THai arts vs Modern Muay Thai[/QUOTE]
Whampoa Military Academy opened May, 1924…birthplace of modern sanda curriculum. I have read Thai Boxing adopted western ring, rules and gloves over a period of time in the 1930’s, but have not been able to find specific dates.
No matter, which is older isn’t important…I’m just making the point that the idea is not new.
Interesting points. Especially the Muay Thai comparison.
[/QUOTE]
What people call “sport” and cast negative shadow upon is really “alive training”… when you make something alive it gets better, not worse
[QUOTE=MarathonTmatt;1253823]
northern eagle claw
[/QUOTE]
The original “eagle claw” as in the so called 108 locks of General Ngok Fei was not a flashy northern system. It was originally refeered to as “elephant stepping” ie it was a direct, forward moving and aggressive system with close quarters application
In the Shum Leung line there was unearthed an old film (8 mm maybe?) of a class from mainland before the move to HK, it looks more like a Judo or stand up Jujitsu class than a flashy kick oriented northern style
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1253826]Whampoa Military Academy opened May, 1924…birthplace of modern sanda curriculum. I have read Thai Boxing adopted western ring, rules and gloves over a period of time in the 1930’s, but have not been able to find specific dates.
No matter, which is older isn’t important…I’m just making the point that the idea is not new.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, 1924, I wasn’t careful with my typing this morning
[QUOTE=MarathonTmatt;1253823]Interesting points. Especially the Muay Thai comparison.
Kellen- (or anyone)- do you think the old CMA was closer to Muay Thai? northern eagle claw grab in longfist can be like a muay thai clinch (maybe applied differently in theory, but looks the same). Also a lot of basics I learned from the old longfist style are like kickboxing techniques (jab, reverse, hook, uppercut, kicking, combos, etc.) Maybe the respective governments promoted the arts in different directions (performance/ health vs. sport fighting/kickboxing) furthering whatever divide already existed?[/QUOTE]
Forms and performance have been around for centuries, (performance aspects also exist in ancient MT.) I think the oldest Gong Fu, however, was the development of specific gongs…basically training certain skills to mastery. I think the fighting was more stripped down, more mastery of the fundamentals…so yes, I think this would look closer to Muay Thai, (or Muay Boran, as Ross noted,) than to say the flamboyant theater we think of as Kung Fu today…
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1253828]Yeah, 1924, I wasn’t careful with my typing this morning
(and you probably got the Whampoa info from me!)[/QUOTE]
Maybe originally, lol, (probably)…it’s actually on many sources on the net now…but I’ve never had a reason to try to trace back to the original source…
Today in mainland they don’t want to discuss (or credit) the nationalist government… so sanda/sanshou mysteriously starts in the 1960’s (even though “sanshou” was published in 1956)
san shou itslef was a fairly common term, and though the program did not have an official name early on, the term san shou was used in a lot of the documents
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1253855]Today in mainland they don’t want to discuss (or credit) the nationalist government… so sanda/sanshou mysteriously starts in the 1960’s (even though “sanshou” was published in 1956)
san shou itslef was a fairly common term, and though the program did not have an official name early on, the term san shou was used in a lot of the documents[/QUOTE]
I don’t have the article to site, but I read something to the affect that Taiwan had maintained its’ Kuoshu fights during the period that formal martial arts training was banned in China. After the Chinese government standardized Wushu taolu, there was criticism coming out of Taiwan for the lack of full contact fighting on the mainland. It was suggested that this loss of face prompted China’s organization of sanda in the late '60’s, early '70’s.
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1253858]I don’t have the article to site, but I read something to the affect that Taiwan had maintained its’ Kuoshu fights during the period that formal martial arts training was banned in China. After the Chinese government standardized Wushu taolu, there was criticism coming out of Taiwan for the lack of full contact fighting on the mainland. It was suggested that this loss of face prompted China’s organization of sanda in the late '60’s, early '70’s.
IYO is their any truth to that assertion?[/QUOTE]
After the CCP vicotory in the civil war, CIVILIANS were prevented from practicing application based martial arts on the mainland. That did NOT stop the military.
I do however have reason to doubt that this was even a universal or enforced policy. The 1954 Guangdong sports almanac listed CTS and his si-hing Lei Fei San as the 3rd and 2nd place winners of the PROVINCIAL sparring championships (both had lost to a Hsing Yi fighter)… as far as I am aware Lei Fei San nor the Hsing Yi guy were military nor was the competition a military competition???
At the same time on Taiwan, they had the ANNUAL Lei Tai events, but as Willim CC Chen expressed to me once, that meant you got to fight ONCE A YEAR… he said you got one, maybe two fights a year and then nothing…
I’m inclined to agree with lkfmdc for the most part here
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1253801](minus whatever minor, necessary adjustments are made for the gear, rules, ring,)[/QUOTE] However, I wouldn’t consider gear, rules and ring minor. The improvement in sparring gear has allowed us to do a lot more than before with a greater degree of safety. Also advances in medicine are a major factor - just imagine what most of the pro MMA fighters might look like using pre-WWI medical methods. The rules are incredibly important and something that a lot of armchair martial artists totally overlook. These define the sport and any athlete or coach worth their salt knows how to play into them. And of course, the ring is a huge factor. Even Sunzi talked about the terrain. It’s a completely different environment when dealing with a leitai vs. a cage vs. ropes & turnbuckles. But all that being said, fighting probably hasn’t changed that much as human bodies haven’t changed that much (we’ll overlook performance enhancers by filing that in with medical advancements ;)), so the core is the same, just the terms might have changed.
I’m inclined to agree with lkfmdc for the most part here
[/QUOTE]
I won’t tell anyone if you won’t
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1253881]
However, I wouldn’t consider gear, rules and ring minor. The improvement in sparring gear has allowed us to do a lot more than before with a greater degree of safety. Also advances in medicine are a major factor - just imagine what most of the pro MMA fighters might look like using pre-WWI medical methods. The rules are incredibly important and something that a lot of armchair martial artists totally overlook. These define the sport and any athlete or coach worth their salt knows how to play into them. And of course, the ring is a huge factor. Even Sunzi talked about the terrain. It’s a completely different environment when dealing with a leitai vs. a cage vs. ropes & turnbuckles. But all that being said, fighting probably hasn’t changed that much as human bodies haven’t changed that much (we’ll overlook performance enhancers by filing that in with medical advancements ;)), so the core is the same, just the terms might have changed.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1253881]However, I wouldn’t consider gear, rules and ring minor. The improvement in sparring gear has allowed us to do a lot more than before with a greater degree of safety. Also advances in medicine are a major factor - just imagine what most of the pro MMA fighters might look like using pre-WWI medical methods. The rules are incredibly important and something that a lot of armchair martial artists totally overlook. These define the sport and any athlete or coach worth their salt knows how to play into them. And of course, the ring is a huge factor. Even Sunzi talked about the terrain. It’s a completely different environment when dealing with a leitai vs. a cage vs. ropes & turnbuckles.
[/QUOTE] This is all true; and playing to the rules is a very important element of sport fighting. I down played it because of the people who claim they cannot test their deadliez skillz in a sport format. I think that attitude is a cop out.
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1253881]
But all that being said, fighting probably hasn’t changed that much as human bodies haven’t changed that much (we’ll overlook performance enhancers by filing that in with medical advancements ;)), so the core is the same, just the terms might have changed.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1253894]I down played it because of the people who claim they cannot test their deadliez skillz in a sport format. I think that attitude is a cop out.[/QUOTE] There is a place for those who don’t compete in contemporary martial arts. For example, I am a big supporter of Tai Chi as therapy and for the elderly. My mom takes it and she’s never going to compete, never going to use it in a fight, but it keeps her healthy and happy and that’s just fantastic. So competition isn’t the ‘be all, end all’ for martial arts. However, I agree with you, Kellen - the ol’ too deadliez argument is reactionary. And sport combat is awesome, in every form, when taken to its highest level. I even love top level wushu taolu. But then, I love rhythmic gymnastics. It’s all about skillz. And competition is one of the greatest arenas to showcase skillz. It’s honest. You have to play by the rules.
[QUOTE=lkfmdc;1253886]I won’t tell anyone if you won’t :D[/QUOTE] I’m getting so tired of you telling me this.
