[QUOTE=David Jamieson;738978]he never fought, he demonstrated. [/QUOTE]
Actually, he did fight. I’ve seen some old footage of his training and a couple of his rooftop fights. He was pretty dominating against the guys he fought in that footage, but they weren’t exactly world beaters.
I think he was a probably quite a good stand-up fighter, but probably not the undefeatable bad@$$ that those who have only seen his movies and demonstrations think that he was.
The question should be could Bruce fight, if he choose to? Yes IMO. Regarding Elite level athlete’s and such, Elite is Elite, whether or not you are competiting is besides the point (especially in his time period). Also, Bruce was not a “Professional” athlete, meaning he did not make his living competiting, so therefore he was not able to spend countless hours physically or mentally honing his abilities (although I do believe he did make use of his time very well regarding his Martial Arts training). He did have other things in his life and other things he strived for. Fame was one of them, and he did have an ego for sure, plus a family to support while being a struggling Asian actor in a business where acotrs of that nationality where in little need.
Too put it simply, he wasn’t perfect, wasn’t unbeatable, wasn’t the god like figure most think of when you say his name, but he was unique, and very gifted as he did mold himself into what he became. What ever path he choose to go down, Actor or Fighter or whatever, he would have succeeded, no doubt.
James
[QUOTE=sihing;739020]The question should be could Bruce fight, if he choose to? Yes IMO. Regarding Elite level athlete’s and such, Elite is Elite, whether or not you are competiting is besides the point (especially in his time period). [/QUOTE]
What brings people to their highest levels is competing against others at equally high levels.
I would agree qith KF, but competing isn’t always in a ring, with a ref and trunks,gi, or speedos. Many TCMA “competed” in public as well as personal, non-public gong-sao, some friendly, some not so friendly. My Sifu has always maintained that if you don’t touch and compare with other high skilled players, you will never achieve the highest levels. This still goes on today.
basically what it seems to come down to is this:
There are haters, and there are obsessors…
but in between all those people, the rest of us know bruce lee was a real guy, with a real body, and a real mind.
he was very gifted, talented, and goal orriented. he worked very hard to accomplish everything that he did. did he have an ego? yes. but well, the guy was very successfull, and a large portion of the fuel for that success was his VERY well known ego, which allowed him the utter confidence to walk his path as he chose. we could all be so lucky
he deserves respect as an artist, human being, and as martial artist, as does each and everyone.
he was, to say the least, a dragon.
R.I.P.
who cares who he could and could not beat.
It seems Bruce Lee has become a divisive issue. Haters and Obsessors are a good way of describing what it mostly comes down to lately. I think both sides take it too far. I see him as a skilled martial artist with great charisma who made some cool movies and had strong points and flaws. Bruce was not perfect like the obsessors would claim, but he isnt the utter chump that the haters would have you think he is.
you and i stand on the same ground
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;738979]And here’s what I find hilarious about this thread…all the Bruce Lee naysayers here wouldn’t have lasted more than 60 seconds with the guy.[/QUOTE]
He focused most of his energies on becoming a famous movie star. He was 130 lbs with extremely limited knowledge of grappling and groundfighting. I’m sure there are a lot of naysayers of today who could have easily “lasted more than 60 seconds with the guy.”
Hello..
Hello all..
I must apologize for intruding here.. as I don’t claim myself to be a martial artist at all.. used to practice 18 years ago.. no belts.. never fought at any competition.. and got detached somehow.. shame on me..
But after reading some of the posts I desired to share my views to you all and may be if anyone respond to this post then that may allow me to learn something new adding some value in my life.. so please advise on the following:
Is martial art for fighting in competition or at streets or roof tops or for practicing as an art.. is it for having recognition in the society as a champion or a street fighter or improving oneself on different aspects of body, mind, life and sharing experiences with others and helping others making improvements..
Is there a new form of martial art named Jeet Kune Do.. if so then who presented this form of martial art to the world.. and how many of those elite level fighters referred at different postings who won competitions could present how many new forms of martial art to the world.. could anyone present anything newer after JKD.. how much knowledge, time, effort, skill, etc. do you think is needed to develop and present a new form of martial art..
Can anyone identify drawbacks of JKD form of martial arts sighting specific comparisons with other similar forms..
Here are some of my views..
To be a true martial artist one need not participate in any competition but practice and practice and practice.. which can even be with ones own shadow and not with another live partner..
To achieve highest level of skill, power, etc. one need not participate in any competition but push and push and push oneself beyond the limits that one has achieved in the past and there could be a lot of people around all of us who may have achieved much better skills than most of the people talking or referred to here but don’t feel the necessity to prove that to others..
To evaluate someone in true sense one need to have better knowledge, skills, etc. from that someone.. and unless that someone is tested by the one how can one come to some real conclusion on specific issues like whether that one was skillful or powerful enough or not..
Those who can not offer something new to the world and just follow some path shown by others do not have the capability to evaluate those who offered new things..
If someone is not really something then why so many people are trying to prove that he is/was not really something.. isn’t it better not to talk than talking about nothing..
Here are some of my opinions..
I have seen some of the UFC programs that some claimed as world class fighting or fighters.. the fights or skills shown in all those that I have watched in TV are not good by any standard.. and the fighters there looks more like a bunch of kids trying to win some trophy by any means than a true martial artist.. interestingly enough some of them did not even pass some of the fitness tests.. demonstrated very ill behavior.. I can’t understand how some of you called these people elite fighters.. but if this is the standard of your so called elite fighters I am sure the person in the quote would not fit in to that standard..
Bruce Lee is a legend in one way or other.. these kind of talking can not touch him.. so it’s better not to try something that would not bring anything good to anyone.. no matter whether he was good enough or not it will not make you any better.. you see.. you are already talking about him.. but nobody is talking about you other than yourself..
A specific question to those who are claiming to be highly skillful, powerful, experts or champions of martial arts, unbeatable, etc. etc. and challenging capabilities of someone who has passed away..
May be none will answer this as everyone knows that someone else may perform better.. so don’t just think that you are really good but try to understand that there is no end of learning and achieving better results and feel that someone else may always be ahead of you whom you have never met and fix your target to achieve something beyond that someone where only you can fix that target and no-one else and end of the day you never know if someone else has fixed a higher target and achieved that already.. so try to beat your own shadow.. and don’t step on to someone else’s..
Have a good time.. 
[QUOTE=Shossain;739328]I must apologize for intruding here.. as I don’t claim myself to be a martial artist at all.. used to practice 18 years ago..
Real fighting, even among the most skilled, often looks sloppy and “unskilled” compared to the fantasies of movie fighting, forms dancing and demonstrations… especially when you throw in all ranges into the mix.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;739355]Real fighting, even among the most skilled, often looks sloppy and “unskilled” compared to the fantasies of movie fighting, forms dancing and demonstrations… especially when you throw in all ranges into the mix.[/QUOTE]
I am sure everyone here knows that quite well..
But when I watch real fightings of legends like Mohammad Ali and a few others including a very few on Bruce Lee I find it difficult to understand why most others can not dance like that at the ring and still can win to be a champion.. ofcourse.. all champions are not true champions.. and all champions are not legends..
With due respect to all.. I doubt if these people participating in the UFC and many other championships now a day that many are referring here can dance close to that level even in movies..
I would request you guys to close this thread without more mud slinging..
No matter what anyone have to say..
Bruce Lee is Bruce Lee.. a legend..
By the way did anyone try the punches? I could achieve 14 in a second..
[QUOTE=Shossain;739496]But when I watch real fightings of legends like Mohammad Ali and a few others including a very few on Bruce Lee I find it difficult to understand why most others can not dance like that at the ring and still can win to be a champion.. ofcourse.. all champions are not true champions.. and all champions are not legends..
With due respect to all.. I doubt if these people participating in the UFC and many other championships now a day that many are referring here can dance close to that level even in movies..[/QUOTE]
Because they are fighting, not dancing.
Lee could dance like that because he wasn’t really fighting, he was acting in movies.
Ali could dance that way because he didn’t have to worry about being taken down.
By the way did anyone try the punches? I could achieve 14 in a second..
Multiple punches per second is like dancing when it comes to actually fighting… not a whole lot of transfer to real fighting situations.
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;739527]Because they are fighting, not dancing.
Lee could dance like that because he wasn’t really fighting, he was acting in movies.
Ali could dance that way because he didn’t have to worry about being taken down.
Multiple punches per second is like dancing when it comes to actually fighting… not a whole lot of transfer to real fighting situations.[/QUOTE]
Frankly.. and with due respect to all.. I was expecting some more constructive response.. and the focus is now shifting..
However, I am adding some more of my views here..
Martial art is an art and not just a fighting tool.. those who does not agree probably do not practice martial art but some fighting methods only..
Dancing is not just dancing like a dance or to show off its a tool to implement a plan.. to change stances like on and off moving in and out taking control distracting focus of opponent.. its stepping at a faster pace with balance.. those who can dance will always dance in real fightings too.. it increases speed, control, power, all that one need in real fighting.. but for only those who can dance.. so to perform better than what one can do one have to dance..
About multiple punching.. in my opinion what is referred to in the above quote is just throwing hands and not punches.. multiple punches at speed with control and power and on target is something that not too many people can do.. while watching any real fighting one will find this to be the most devastating and a major reason for winning.. and if one can not punch without fighting how can one expect to punch in actual fighting?
So.. dance and see the difference.. enjoy the discovery..
[QUOTE=Shossain;739550]
Martial art is an art and not just a fighting tool.. those who does not agree probably do not practice martial art but some fighting methods only..[/QUOTE]
BJJ, Muay Thai, Sambo, boxing, Judo, and wrestling are definitely more fighting method and less martial art.
Nothing wrong with wanting to have “art” involved. Just don’t expect it to have any relation to actual fighting.
those who can dance will always dance in real fightings too..
Watch any combat system that involves takedowns. Judo, BJJ, wrestling, Sambo… you won’t see much in terms of dancing in these. There’s a functional reason for this.
while watching any real fighting one will find this to be the most devastating and a major reason for winning..
The major reason for ending a fight with punches is the power, timing and accuracy of said punches, not how many punches can be thrown in a short period of time.
Multiple, incredibly fast punches thrown one after another mostly work only in the pretend world of movies and demonstrations.
i believe this statement captures the essence of this “discussion” regarding bruce lee.
bruce lee simply was bruce lee.
“achieve a greatness beyond the standard set by those who came before you, without doing so, words mean nothing.”
this is something a great man once told me.
i believe this quote i just wrote was something that bruce lee lived by, regardless of whether he was concious of this thought pattern.
i believe bruce lee reached a greatness many will not find in several life times.
i dont believe the goal of bruce lee was to defeat everyone in combat, or that would have been his focus.
i believe bruce lee wanted to develop methods for helping ANYONE to be able to reach these standards and possibilities.
my beliefs may be wrong.
but it doesnt really matter
Bruce Lee
A guy with a unique physical condition (let’s not be Ho mo about it), yes
A guy who wasn’t “just” an actor, had martial arts skills, yes
A guy who invented cross training? NO
A guy who chose movies over fighter, ok, no problem
A guy who made martial arts very popular and helped push them mainstream, no doubt about it, yes
A great fighter? No evidence of this. A few fights with people whose level is hard to determine. No competition. Certainly had almost no grappling skills
If there wasn’t a cult talking about how Bruce wold have KO’d Royce Gracie and won every UFC pretty much no one would care about Bruce Lee
Heck, a lot of JKD people have moved BEYOND Bruce Lee
Knifefighter
Why the lieing quotes? Couldn’t find something I said for real to bash?
How about fixing that and quoting something I actually said?
That should be better.
Well you’re still off in fantasyland with that one but then we all know your grasp of reality is a weak one.
BTW, I returned the favor. Like it?
"And here’s what I find hilarious about this thread…all the Bruce Lee naysayers here wouldn’t have lasted more than 60 seconds with the guy.
Who’s kidding who around here?!"
I honestly think youre kidding yourself. I don’t know about anyone else here but I think I could have beaten him in any venue (I think others here could have as well). Given any of my stats compared to his I don’t think he could do anything to me. Not without a gun. I’m not asking, or trying to convince, anyone to believe this but it’s how I feel. News flash…you can actually be good without being famous.
That being said:
"he was very gifted, talented, and goal orriented. he worked very hard to accomplish everything that he did. did he have an ego? yes. but well, the guy was very successfull, and a large portion of the fuel for that success was his VERY well known ego, which allowed him the utter confidence to walk his path as he chose. we could all be so lucky
he deserves respect as an artist, human being, and as martial artist, as does each and everyone."
I pretty much agree.
“achieve a greatness beyond the standard set by those who came before you, without doing so, words mean nothing.”
Great quote…if everyone fealt this way this forum would be empty.