about Bruce Lee

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
101

[QUOTE=Anthony;739659]"And here’s what I find hilarious about this thread…all the Bruce Lee naysayers here wouldn’t have lasted more than 60 seconds with the guy.

Who’s kidding who around here?!"

I honestly think youre kidding yourself. I don’t know about anyone else here but I think I could have beaten him in any venue (I think others here could have as well). Given any of my stats compared to his I don’t think he could do anything to me. Not without a gun. I’m not asking, or trying to convince, anyone to believe this but it’s how I feel. News flash…you can actually be good without being famous.

That being said:

"he was very gifted, talented, and goal orriented. he worked very hard to accomplish everything that he did. did he have an ego? yes. but well, the guy was very successfull, and a large portion of the fuel for that success was his VERY well known ego, which allowed him the utter confidence to walk his path as he chose. we could all be so lucky

he deserves respect as an artist, human being, and as martial artist, as does each and everyone."

I pretty much agree.

“achieve a greatness beyond the standard set by those who came before you, without doing so, words mean nothing.”

Great quote…if everyone fealt this way this forum would be empty.[/QUOTE]

You THINK you could beat Bruce? I can say the samething, too bad there is no way to find out eh, lol… I agree that you can be good without being famous, but Bruce was that. He only acheived fame for the last 3 yrs of his life, he was good for many many years before that.

You gotta love the internet.:smiley:

Hey dude, maybe post some video’s on utube and we can have inkling of your skill to possibly back up what you say, OK.

James

102

I heard from someone that knew someone that on the set of a movie he knocked out Judo Gene Labell. One punch.:eek: And one does have to ask why nobody from Brazil ever challenged him. The reason is simple, they are great fighters and recognized someone who was superior even to them. Bruce was and always will be the ultimate fighter.

The Real Original Lucky Louie!

103

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;739554]BJJ, Muay Thai, Sambo, boxing, Judo, and wrestling are definitely more fighting method and less martial art.

Nothing wrong with wanting to have “art” involved. Just don’t expect it to have any relation to actual fighting."

JKD is not just a style or form of fighting method.. it represents the most recent and advanced martial art..

“Watch any combat system that involves takedowns. Judo, BJJ, wrestling, Sambo… you won’t see much in terms of dancing in these. There’s a functional reason for this.”

Yes.. because as mentioned these specific forms of fighting methods limited by rules.. and as such are not complete fighting techniques.. however, saying that I must agree, dancing is not mandatory.. but can give advantage during a real fight too..

Mohammad Ali, the 20th century sportsman of the century, used to dance in every real fighting.. even when he fought some of the other greatest boxers like Sonny Liston, Jeorge Foreman and Joe Frazier.. I am sure those were not movie tricks or Mohammad Ali did not try to act in the ring.. here is a specific quote on this “During the bout, Ali employed an unexpected strategy. Throughout the build up he declared he was going to ‘dance’ and use his speed to keep away from Foreman and out box him”..

“The major reason for ending a fight with punches is the power, timing and accuracy of said punches, not how many punches can be thrown in a short period of time.”

No disagreement.. but speed is very important too.. that’s what it means.. without speed the rest does not work because the target will move out/block/divert as it see something coming..

"Multiple, incredibly fast punches thrown one after another mostly work only in the pretend world of movies and demonstrations.[/QUOTE]

Another quote from Ali’s fight.. “By the end of the eighth round Foreman was clearly flagging and Ali made his move, turning Foreman off the ropes and executing a combination for the knockout”..

Watching videos of his fights will give all a pretty good idea on what dancing and multiple punching is all about in real fights..

104

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;739554]BJJ, Muay Thai, Sambo, boxing, Judo, and wrestling are definitely more fighting method and less martial art.

Nothing wrong with wanting to have “art” involved. Just don’t expect it to have any relation to actual fighting.

Watch any combat system that involves takedowns. Judo, BJJ, wrestling, Sambo… you won’t see much in terms of dancing in these. There’s a functional reason for this.

The major reason for ending a fight with punches is the power, timing and accuracy of said punches, not how many punches can be thrown in a short period of time.

Multiple, incredibly fast punches thrown one after another mostly work only in the pretend world of movies and demonstrations.[/QUOTE]

JKD is not just a style or form of fighting method.. it represents the most recent and advanced martial art..

Yes.. because as mentioned these specific forms of fighting methods limited by rules.. and as such are not complete fighting techniques.. however, saying that I must agree, dancing is not mandatory.. but can give advantage during a real fight too..

Mohammad Ali, the 20th century sportsman of the century, used to dance in every real fighting.. even when he fought some of the other greatest boxers like Sonny Liston, Jeorge Foreman and Joe Frazier.. I am sure those were not movie tricks or Mohammad Ali did not try to act in the ring.. here is a specific quote on this “During the bout, Ali employed an unexpected strategy. Throughout the build up he declared he was going to ‘dance’ and use his speed to keep away from Foreman and out box him”..

No disagreement.. but speed is very important too.. that’s what it means.. without speed the rest does not work because the target will move out/block/divert as it see something coming..

Another quote from Ali’s fight.. “By the end of the eighth round Foreman was clearly flagging and Ali made his move, turning Foreman off the ropes and executing a combination for the knockout”..

Watching videos of his fights will give all a pretty good idea on what dancing and multiple punching is all about in real fights..

105

And also how to rope a dope, a very effective street technique.

106

[QUOTE=Anthony;739659]"I don’t know about anyone else here but I think I could have beaten him in any venue (I think others here could have as well). Given any of my stats compared to his I don’t think he could do anything to me.[/QUOTE]

I would love to see some stats as mentioned.. may be a comparison too.. instead of just mentioning.. :slight_smile:

Is it braveness or ignorance!!.. may be all here would love to see a fight against Dan.. probably the only person certified by Bruce still living with us in this world.. you may call +1 310 578 7773 to have it scheduled.. :slight_smile:

107

JKD is not just a style or form of fighting method.. it represents the most recent and advanced martial art..

The most advanced martial art?

Methinks someone has been drinking the Kool-Aide again.

Mohammad Ali, the 20th century sportsman of the century, used to dance in every real fighting..even when he fought some of the other greatest boxers like Sonny Liston, Jeorge Foreman and Joe Frazier.. I am sure those were not movie tricks or Mohammad Ali did not try to act in the ring

As I mentioned, he didn’t have to worry about being taken down.
Takedowns are illegal in boxing.
Takedowns change the dynamics of how one can move.

No disagreement.. but speed is very important too.. that’s what it means.. without speed the rest does not work because the target will move out/block/divert as it see something coming..

Speed is, indeed, important.
Speed, as in 5 or more punches per second, is not.

Watching videos of his fights will give all a pretty good idea on what dancing and multiple punching is all about in real fights..

Ali is a perfect example of top speed combined with power, and you would never see him throwing 14 punches in a second.

108

[QUOTE=Shossain;739738]I would love to see some stats as mentioned.. may be a comparison too.. instead of just mentioning.. :slight_smile:

Is it braveness or ignorance!!.. may be all here would love to see a fight against Dan.. probably the only person certified by Bruce still living with us in this world.. you may call +1 310 578 7773 to have it scheduled.. :)[/QUOTE]

Shossain-

You are a student of Dan’s?

If you are, he is not going to be happy to find out about you making public proclamations about scheduling fights with him.

Rather than posting your instructor’s number, you should step up and post yours if you want a demonstration of people’s abilities.

109

“I think he (Bruce Lee) was a probably quite a good stand-up fighter, but probably not the undefeatable bad@$$ that those who have only seen his movies and demonstrations think that he was.” (Knife/Frank)

***NOBODY is undefeatable.

…

" don’t know about anyone else here but I think I could have beaten him (Bruce Lee) in any venue…" (Anthony)

***YEAH…riiiiiiiiiiiight. :rolleyes: :eek: :smiley:

…

And as to Bruce’s limited wrestling/grappling abilities back in the late 1960’s/early 70’s…

Ahh…yeah…but he was clearly getting interested more-and-more in wrestling/grappling as time went on (you can see a progression through the timelines of when his movies were made, ie.- he kills Chuck with a guillotine in “Return Of The Dragon”…and kills Kareem with a side choke in “Game Of Death” - his last two movies).

And as for JKD being the most advanced style..I would so NO if you’re talking about actual principles, strategies, and techniques…

but YES if you mean the overall concept within JKD of having no (particular) style because you’ve drawn from multiple styles: CROSSTRAINING.

Crosstraining is the BEST STYLE.

110

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;739758]Shossain-

You are a student of Dan’s?

If you are, he is not going to be happy to find out about you making public proclamations about scheduling fights with him.

Rather than posting your instructor’s number, you should step up and post yours if you want a demonstration of people’s abilities.[/QUOTE]

I apologize..

No I am not a student of Dan.. and the number is of the academy and not his personal number.. however, may be it was not right to post here..

I mentioned him only because may be he is one of the very few people living now who can tell us the real Bruce stories.. and instead of making comments and speculating its better to hear it from someone who know it..

111

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;739759]NOBODY is undefeatable. [/QUOTE]

Yes.. Mohammad Ali was also defeated.. but it does not mean that he can not fight or not a good one..

112

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;739752]The most advanced martial art?

Methinks someone has been drinking the Kool-Aide again.

As I mentioned, he didn’t have to worry about being taken down.
Takedowns are illegal in boxing.
Takedowns change the dynamics of how one can move.

Speed is, indeed, important.
Speed, as in 5 or more punches per second, is not.

Ali is a perfect example of top speed combined with power, and you would never see him throwing 14 punches in a second.[/QUOTE]

Yes.. Ali is the perfect example for both combination punches and dancing and nobody can contest that.. and that is why his examples were picked here.. but nobody would probably stand to take 14 punches from him in a second.. everybody fall within the first few..

Also practicing is for improving skills and does not necessarily mean that one have to apply it exactly as it is done in the practice.. moreover, practicing is more or less static process as most people tend to go with specific routines, or training sessions, or instructions where as actual fighting is dynamic as it involves actions and reactions from the opponent too.. but skilled developed from practice are indicators for the level attained by one to devastate opponents in real fighting..

113

This is exactly the sort of nonsense that leads people to get tired of the Bruce Lee cult and call it out

JKD isn’t the “most advanced”, in fact, those who are actively fighting today are doing very little of the stuff that Bruce Lee originally taught. Erik Paulson, Straight Blast, etc have moved beyond the very limited scope of Lee’s original teachings

Bruce Lee most certainly did not KO Gene LeBell :rolleyes:
LeBell in fact picked up Lee and carried him around the set, Lee felt humiliated. Le Bell then threw him down and put a straight arm bar on him. And Lee couldn’t get out. A lot of people think that later films where Lee uses a bite to get out the same movement is a “working out” emotionally of this incident for Lee

Ali is a legend, but he was also a man, and he also did some things that are not correct in boxing. Ali’s head movement was wrong, he pulled straight back with his chin up. He had supernatural speed which let him pull it off MOST OF THE TIME, then there was the Frazier fight where he got his jaw broken as a result.

Ali was never known as a power puncher

And all of Ali’s footwork and dancing did nothing when Inoki did something as simple as sit on his butt and kick him in the legs

114

You’re just jealous because Lee was the ultimate martial artist, and a master of the Cha cha too. Bruce never had to work any issues out, why would someone of his stature have issues anyway? Never disrespect Bruce Lee! :mad:

The Real Original Lucky Louie

115

you’re right, I’ll never get past his Cha Cha Championship, something I dreamed about but which eluded me

116

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;739783]This is exactly the sort of nonsense that leads people to get tired of the Bruce Lee cult and call it out

JKD isn’t the “most advanced”, in fact, those who are actively fighting today are doing very little of the stuff that Bruce Lee originally taught. Erik Paulson, Straight Blast, etc have moved beyond the very limited scope of Lee’s original teachings

Bruce Lee most certainly did not KO Gene LeBell :rolleyes:
LeBell in fact picked up Lee and carried him around the set, Lee felt humiliated. Le Bell then threw him down and put a straight arm bar on him. And Lee couldn’t get out. A lot of people think that later films where Lee uses a bite to get out the same movement is a “working out” emotionally of this incident for Lee

Ali is a legend, but he was also a man, and he also did some things that are not correct in boxing. Ali’s head movement was wrong, he pulled straight back with his chin up. He had supernatural speed which let him pull it off MOST OF THE TIME, then there was the Frazier fight where he got his jaw broken as a result.

Ali was never known as a power puncher

And all of Ali’s footwork and dancing did nothing when Inoki did something as simple as sit on his butt and kick him in the legs[/QUOTE]

JKD is no specific style.. but compilation of the best from the better styles.. and it was created as an art and not a style.. so that people can utilize it with an open mind to make improvement of specific individual needs.. so if one can not perform it does not necessarily weaken the position of JKD.. and its openness to accommodate new advanced techniques would always keep it ahead of any other technique as it was created as an art to continuously evolve and not binded by specific style..

No comment on Bruce Lee - LeBell fight as I have not seen any authentic document on that myself..

Nobody is perfect.. but Ali’s record does not support much on any claim of weak techniques.. may be it was his style to provoke.. when you take risks accidents may happen.. he won against Fraziar too..

Again if one go through the records Ali stopped many good fighters in a single solid punch that does not support any claim of him not being a power puncher..

The Ali - Inoki fight can not be referred to as a standard.. Inoki was lying at the floor most of the time.. I remember watching it live and we were all very much offended and disappointed to see that technique.. although it worked well for Inoki and may be he would not stand for a single round if he went for a real fight.. and Ali’s techniques did not work as he had to go by the boxing rules and could not come and kick Inoki out of the ring.. so this single non-standard reference can not negate the overall effectiveness of dancing..

117

every method that has been found to be able to be utilized in combat is just that.

a method that can be utilzed in combat.

thus, the moment, is the true deciding factor in what techniques can or can not be employed in the altercation/bout.

just the ideal behind budo, a very old ideal that is alive in many of todays martial artists.

the way of war.

ie: crosstraining.

as a warrior one must incorporate as many methods into thier personal system that can be done so without lack of focus on the basics, and the essentials.

which will change according to the time period, or venue you will be utilizing your skills in.

Standard MMA fighter will need a very different game from someone who is simply living on the streets and fighting on a regular basis to survive.

It all depends on what you need. When you can truly see your goals, you will be able to see your drawbacks and weaknesses in relation to the completion of your goal. When you can see this, THEN you can decide what will work best for your particular needs.

118

It only get’s better…

[QUOTE=Shossain;739802]
JKD is no specific style.. but compilation of the best from the better styles..
[/QUOTE]

Or, in other words, a mish mash of stuff he picked up along the way…

And he didn’t have access to many of the “better styles” did he really? Originaly JKD had very little grappling in it. Lee had very limited access to Muay Thai. His boxing came mostly from watching films of the fights, which would explain why his bag work was HORRIBLE. Ever seen that footage? Standing square in front of the bag, no movement, just hauling off with as big a shot as he cold throw

[QUOTE=Shossain;739802]
and it was created as an art and not a style..
[/QUOTE]

Lee was an undergraduate philosophy major, never graduated that I am aware of, and like many undergraduate philosophy students he was fond of stuff that sounded deep but didnt’ mean much.

[QUOTE=Shossain;739802]
No comment on Bruce Lee - LeBell fight as I have not seen any authentic document on that myself..
[/QUOTE]

Extremely well known in martial arts world and also no surprise when you think Lee was a 130 something guy who had very little hands on experience against a 180 something Judo competitor who had tested his skills on the tatami

You also need to read up on the Ali-Inoki “fight”, it was originally going to be a pro wrestling work, until Ali’s ego wouldnt’ let him “lose” even in a FAKE MATCH where teh host had paid a lot of money to bring him there and was paying him even more to appear.

Money already spent, Ali already in Japan and teh fight already announced, Inoki agreed to a REAL FIGHT, until Ali’s camp saw the real fighting that Inoki was getting ready for (under Karl Gotch’s hand by the way)

Ali then demanded new rules, including Inoki couldn’t use a closed fist, couldn’t kick the head, couldn’t use suplex or Judo throws and couldn’t use any submissions.

Again, Ali was blackmailing Inoki, who had put his entire promotional company in financial distress to bring Ali to Japan. So Inoki agreed.

All of Ali’s fancy footwork couldnt’ help him against a simple strategy, sit on the floor and kick the legs (Gotch’s strategy by the way!)… .

It almost ended Ali’s career

119

so i just youtubed teh Ali-Inoki “fight”…

LOL

pathetic. both of them.

im not saying that they werent good fighters, im just saying that was purely pathetic.

why did ali even approach him…just let him lay there.

i have no sound at work? what was the outcome.

did they call the fight on account of no fighting, and them sucking bad?

120

and further more…why couldnt he pull off a sweep.

ali…a boxer…didnt even fall.

looks like the leg kicks were 100% innefective