Bruce Lee vs. Jose Aldo

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
1

Who wins?

Rules for the fight:

  1. Prime vs. Prime (Bruce Lee is resurrected or brought back through time travel and he’s in the best shape of his life as is Aldo).

  2. UFC rules (not a street fight they are competing under unified rules of Mixed Martial Arts).

  3. No Prep for either fighter (Bruce Lee doesn’t get time to train MMA he comes in to the fight with the skills he developed in his life time. Fight starts instantaneously and Bruce Lee knows all of the rules).

  4. No injuries (Bruce Lee’s back is fine. Aldo isn’t suffering from his current rib injury or any other injuries).

  5. No Cheating (Winner of the fight wins fair and square).

  6. Same weight (This is for the UFC Featherweight championship and Bruce Lee weighs 145 pounds).

I want serious answers. Who do you think would win and why? How would the fight transpire? This thread was inspired by Youtube discussions where people are arguing about who would win and how Bruce Lee would do in MMA in general.

Here’s a video of the fight from the UFC videogame for your viewing pleasure:

//youtu.be/YXf7nsVLqiI

2

OK, I’ll start.

Jose Aldo.

Aldo has far more experience in competitive fighting in general, and MMA in particular, and against higher-level and better-conditioned opponents than Bruce Lee faced during his life. Aldo is also every bit as quick, probably more so, in terms of all-around body speed and reaction time. I also think that Jose Aldo has greater ‘killer instinct’ than BL, and he has unleashed his aggression many times, to devastating effect, in his fights. Although BL is physically fit, Aldo is fighting fit, and is thus better prepared to compete in the octagon than BL.

3

[QUOTE=Jimbo;1285068]OK, I’ll start.

Jose Aldo.

Aldo has far more experience in competitive fighting in general, and MMA in particular, and against higher-level and better-conditioned opponents than Bruce Lee faced during his life. Aldo is also every bit as quick, probably more so, in terms of all-around body speed and reaction time. I also think that Jose Aldo has greater ‘killer instinct’ than BL, and he has unleashed his aggression many times, to devastating effect, in his fights. Although BL is physically fit, Aldo is fighting fit, and is thus better prepared to compete in the octagon than BL.[/QUOTE]

I agree with everything you said. In these debates with Bruce Lee supporters I try to get them to understand that while Bruce Lee was a spectacular Martial Artist in great shape he had zero professional fights, thus he is severely lacking in experience for someone who is supposed to be able to beat some of the best Mixed Martial Artists in the world.

Here are some comments I encountered on Youtube:

You brought up reaction time, killer instinct and fitness. Aldo surely has the advantage in all of these attributes. All we have for Bruce Lee fighting is eye witness testimonies, not actual footage of real fights. The story of Bruce Lee vs. the Karate master on the YMCA handball court is interesting because its one of the only accounts of Bruce Lee in a full-contact challenge match. Jesse Glover said the fight ended in 11 seconds with Bruce Lee winning by knockout. If that is true then Bruce Lee had killer instinct but you have to consider the caliber of his opponent whose real name we don’t even know. Bruce Lee was fast but I think Jose Aldo did have superior reaction time developed over years of training for and competing in MMA. As for conditioning while Bruce Lee was fit you’re right to say that Aldo was conditioned for fighting. He has the stamina to go 5 Rounds. We have no idea what kind of stamina Bruce Lee has.

In fact there are several things we don’t know about Bruce Lee having never seen him in a real fight.

Examples:

  • What kind of chin did he have (how durable was he)?

  • What kind of stamina did he have?

  • How accurate was he?

  • How well could he defend a takedown?

  • How was his ground game?

  • How powerful of a striker was he?

  • What kind of heart did he have?

  • How high was his fight IQ?

There are so many unanswered questions about Bruce Lee as a real fighter. In my opinion Jose Aldo takes this fight pretty quickly by damaging Bruce Lee’s legs with kicks and then setting up punches and knees to the face. Bruce Lee have been tested so little in his life against high caliber opponents wouldn’t be ready for a fighter the caliber of Jose Aldo.

4

Absolutely.

Regarding the ‘karate master’ that BL reportedly beat up; it could be he wasn’t a master, or even an expert, at all. Even if he was, it wouldn’t have any bearing on BL’s ability to handle experienced professional fighters in the octagon. I have admired and respected BL for decades, for what he did accomplish. IMO, it’s NO sign of respect from the BL worshippers to paint him as superhuman. BL was naturally athletic, intelligent, and talented for the martial arts. However, that doesn’t translate into what he wasn’t: a world-class professional fighter. Even if he had the hardest side kick while kicking someone holding a kicking shield for him, that’s not the same as hitting or kicking a highly conditioned, moving opponent who’s not cooperating with you. Plus, JA is fast as lightning, too. He’s experienced at applying that speed while fighting, and has the conditioning to still have it when he needs it later in a fight.

I would also say that JA almost certainly grew up in a tougher environment than BL. Even if BL had some rooftop fights as a kid in HK, I doubt his environment was as dangerous as wherever JA came from in Brazil.

Regarding pure speed and power, people should remember the young Mike Tyson, a heavyweight. He had incredible speed, and while doing combinations and making full contact. His speed easily matched BL’s, and he could maintain it with greater mass, continuity and killer instinct. There are many fighters and other athletes whose speed equalled or exceeded BL’s.

I still respect/admire BL and always will, but one must be a realist. Just because he never lost a fight onscreen, is no indication of how he would have fared against someone like JA. I strongly suspect that, if they were honest about it, the Lee family would be relieved that BL never had to face a JA during his lifetime. Keep in mind, I’m not saying that JA is invincible either. But the octagon is his environment.

5

This whole idea that Bruce Lee was superhuman is based on physical feats that anyone who knows any better can recognize as ridiculous. Have you seen some of these claims?

//youtu.be/kFw7qON-Vgs

Physical feats

Lee’s phenomenal fitness meant he was capable of performing many exceptional physical feats. The following list includes some of the physical feats that are documented and supported by reliable sources.

  • Lee's striking speed from three feet with his hands down by his side reached five hundredths of a second.
  • Lee could spring a 235 lb (107 kg) opponent 15 feet (4.6 metres) away with a 1 inch punch.
  • Lee's combat movements were at times too fast to be captured on film at 24fps, so many scenes were shot in 32fps to put Lee in slow motion. Normally martial arts films are sped up.
  • In a speed demonstration, Lee could snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind.
  • Lee could perform push ups using only his thumbs.
  • Lee would hold an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer.
  • Lee could throw grains of rice up into the air and then catch them in mid-flight using chopsticks.
  • Lee performed one-hand push-ups using only the thumb and index finger.
  • Lee performed 50 reps of one-arm chin-ups.
  • From a standing position, Lee could hold a 125 lb (57 kg) barbell straight out.
  • Lee could break wooden boards 6 inches (15 cm) thick.
  • Lee performed a side kick while training with James Coburn and broke a 150-lb (68 kg) punching bag.
  • Lee could cause a 300-lb (136 kg) bag to fly towards and thump the ceiling with a side kick.
  • In a move that has been dubbed "Dragon Flag", Lee could perform leg lifts with only his shoulder blades resting on the edge of a bench and suspend his legs and torso perfectly horizontal midair.
  • Lee could thrust his fingers through unopened steel cans of Coca-Cola, at a time before cans were made of the softer aluminum metal.
  • Lee could use one finger to leave dramatic indentations on pine wood.

I agree that it does a disservice to Bruce Lee’s legacy to promote outright falsehoods about his physical abilities. Bruce Lee was in great physical condition. He was very athletic, very intelligent and dedicated to the Martial Arts but he was not superhuman. Superhuman abilities would be something like benching pressing 3x your body weight or running a mile in one minute. Something that goes beyond the limits of what a peak athletic human being could do.

6

Bruce was an innovator and way ahead of his time. For a guy rooted in the 1960’s he did exceptionally well.

Had he been born in this era, and driven with the same motivations, he would arguably be at the cutting edge of advances in MMA.

People like Aldo are good representatives for the modern fighter who is dextrous and skilled.

Better to focus on the here and now.

That said, Rousey’s coach Gene LeBell was friends with Bruce. McGregor fights out of Straight Blast Gym, which is, at least in part, a gym that cross-trains JKD.

While people are focused on historic figures, a new breed of fighter is busy training and readying himself. These are the ones I prefer to pay attention to.

Random thoughts.

Suki

7

I agree that Bruce Lee was an innovator and ahead of his time. I think if we brought Bruce Lee to the present and let him train MMA for a couple of years he would have the potential to do really well. But many people believe he had the tools to beat elite Mixed Martial Artists while he was alive.

Look at this video for instance:

//youtu.be/ONHwjpdf5mQ

The narrator claims that Bruce Lee was too fast to block and shows the Unstoppable Punch demonstration against Vic Moore as evidence. He claims that because Moore was a 10th degree Black Belt Bruce Lee was unbeatable and would win against all MMA fighters. There are so many flaws in this statement. For starters it’s just a demonstration not a real fight against a resisting opponent. And if we learned anything about MMA it’s that Dan grades don’t equate to exceptional fighting skills. Many Karate Black Belts competed in MMA and showed striking skills below the level of journeyman Kickboxers proving that you need full-contact sparring to be exceptionally good at striking.

Vic Moore while a talented Karate practitioner excelled at point fighting. From his interviews he sounds like a hardcore Karate purist. I doubt he has cross-trained in grappling especially when he was young and I think he would lose easily in modern MMA if we brought him from his prime to the present.

8

Actually, Vic Moore couldn’t have been a 10th-degree black belt in 1967. It would have been impossible. Not that black belt degrees mean much in regards to fighting ability. Tenth-degree does not equate to ten times better at fighting than a first-degree. In the vast majority of arts with belt degrees (BJJ probably being one of the few exceptions), in my observation, there wouldn’t be much improvement in fighting ability that, say, a 6th-degree has over his own ability at first or second-degree, when he/she is younger and likely far more active. Much less a tenth-degree, who would be old by then. Most of the higher BB ranks are for contributions to the art anyway, as opposed to more advanced fighting ability over a lower degree BB.

Besides, Bruce Lee flicking his hand in the air in front of someone’s face in a demonstration, essentially using the footwork and empty-handed version of a fencing strike, does not prove how he would do in a ring/octagon against a high-level, motivated, experienced, conditioned guy trying to take his head off or take him down. Even if he landed it in a sporting context as a fist strike (a jab, as opposed to the eye poke as demo’d), it wouldn’t necessarily be a finisher. It might be shrugged off, or maybe p!ss the other guy off and motivate him even more. It could serve to close the gap and possibly set someone up for something else, though.

9

Yes, Moore is apparently a 10th degree Black Belt now but he wasn’t back then. I agree that Bruce Lee’s Unstoppable Punch demonstration is not evidence that he was a great fighter. By the way what do you make of some of the physical feats Bruce Lee is alleged to have done, particularly the punch speed test?

This is my take on them all:

1. [SIZE=4]Lee’s striking speed from three feet with his hands down by his side reached five hundredths of a second.[/SIZE]

This claim was made in Jesse Glover’s book Bruce Lee: Between Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do. I read the book. According to Glover this measurement was taken at his house with an electric timer. The speed of Bruce Lee’s punch translates to about 40 mph. By comparison Ricky Hatton, a professional Boxer, had his punch speed measured and had an average speed of 25 mph with a top speed of 32 mph. Muhammad Ali’s anchor punch against Sonny Liston was measured and the speed was about 42 mph.

I’m inclined to believe this one because Glover is a credible Martial Artist who went in to a lot of detail in his book. It’s too bad they didn’t record this one although you can tell Bruce Lee was fast by demonstrations such as the Green Hornet Screen Test.

So for this claim there is no proof but it is plausible.

2. [SIZE=4]Lee could spring a 235 lb (107 kg) opponent 15 feet (4.6 metres) away with a 1 inch punch.[/SIZE]

This one is definitely true. Bruce Lee’s One-Inch punch has been recorded on video and he did indeed send men flying with it.

3. [SIZE=4]Lee’s combat movements were at times too fast to be captured on film at 24fps, so many scenes were shot in 32fps to put Lee in slow motion. Normally martial arts films are sped up.[/SIZE]

This one is apparently true. I believe they addressed this claim in the commentary of Enter the Dragon which I own on DVD.

4. [SIZE=4]In a speed demonstration, Lee could snatch a dime off a person’s open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind.[/SIZE]

I don’t believe this one. I’ve never seen this demonstration and it doesn’t seem plausible.

5. [SIZE=4]Lee could perform push ups using only his thumbs.[/SIZE]

I haven’t seen this one but I have seen the one finger pushup so I’m inclined to believe it.

6. [SIZE=4]Lee would hold an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer.[/SIZE]

I’ve seen pictures of Bruce Lee doing a V-sit so I know he could do it. But for 30 minutes? That’s bull$hit. Gymnasts can tell you that is not possible.

7. [SIZE=4]Lee could throw grains of rice up into the air and then catch them in mid-flight using chopsticks.[/SIZE]

There’s no way Bruce Lee or anyone could do this. The rice would slip through the chopstick even if you have the coordination to grab it. And again there’s no proof.

8. [SIZE=4]Lee performed one-hand push-ups using only the thumb and index finger.[/SIZE]

This demonstration is on video so definitely true.

9. [SIZE=4]Lee performed 50 reps of one-arm chin-ups.[/SIZE]

After researching this I don’t believe the claim. The Guinness Book of World Records Holder for most one-armed Pull-Ups in one minute is George Gaydardzhiev who did about 17 in one minute. The video is on Youtube. Bruce Lee allegedly did 50. Consecutively with no rest? Not likely. And again no proof.

10. [SIZE=4]From a standing position, Lee could hold a 125 lb (57 kg) barbell straight out.
[/SIZE]
I would have to see this one to believe it. There’s no proof and common sense indicates that this is not possible especially for a man Bruce’s size.

11. [SIZE=4]Lee could break wooden boards 6 inches (15 cm) thick.[/SIZE]

I’ve seen Bruce Lee break boards but 6 inches thick?! That is unlikely. Where is the proof? And besides, boards don’t hit back. :stuck_out_tongue:

12. [SIZE=4]Lee performed a side kick while training with James Coburn and broke a 150-lb (68 kg) punching bag.[/SIZE]

That’s possible. Punching bags can be broken.

13. [SIZE=4]Lee could cause a 300-lb (136 kg) bag to fly towards and thump the ceiling with a side kick.[/SIZE]

No. There’s just no way that this could be done. And again no proof.

14. [SIZE=4]In a move that has been dubbed “Dragon Flag”, Lee could perform leg lifts with only his shoulder blades resting on the edge of a bench and suspend his legs and torso perfectly horizontal midair.[/SIZE]

I’ve seen pictures of Bruce Lee doing this so I believe it.

15. [SIZE=4]Lee could thrust his fingers through unopened steel cans of Coca-Cola, at a time before cans were made of the softer aluminum metal.[/SIZE]

Again, no. Yet again, no proof.

16. [SIZE=4]Lee could use one finger to leave dramatic indentations on pine wood.[/SIZE]

I’ve never seen it tried but I don’t believe this one either. And yet again no proof.

So at the end of the day a lot has been claimed about Bruce Lee with some claims being verified and some not. Many of these claims are preposterous. Bruce Lee was in great athletic condition. He was fast. He was strong. He was a human being and many professional fighters have met or exceeded his level.

10

This one is easy to answer - Aldo would win because he’s trained for the ring and it’s rules. Bruce would be hampered by the rules of the ring as he can’t do finger jabs to the eyes or any other disallowed techniques he’s used to training. Knowing the rules and training within those rules are two separate things. If you don’t train within them, you’re going to fall back on what you train under stress. Bruce would be disqualified or have his a$$ handed to him in a ring. Bruce admitted he didn’t train for any sport fighting. He trained for street fighting where anything goes - ergo the eye strikes with Bil Gee, kicks to groin, etc.

Also, Bruce was 135 lbs when he filmed Enter the Dragon (and when he died), not 155 lbs.

Fight and sport science has evolved tremendously since 1973 when he died. Athletes today are stronger and faster, not just martial artists; but to not give Bruce his due for what he accomplished back then is short-sighted. 40 years have passed since his death and he’s still gracing the covers of body building and martial art magazines. His characteristics are still unmistakenly imitated in movies today. That’s one hell of an influence from a “simple kung fu guy”.

11

A[QUOTE=SifuYui;1285120]This one is easy to answer - Aldo would win because he’s trained for the ring and it’s rules. Bruce would be hampered by the rules of the ring as he can’t do finger jabs to the eyes or any other disallowed techniques he’s used to training. Knowing the rules and training within those rules are two separate things. If you don’t train within them, you’re going to fall back on what you train under stress. Bruce would be disqualified or have his a$$ handed to him in a ring. Bruce admitted he didn’t train for any sport fighting. He trained for street fighting where anything goes - ergo the eye strikes with Bil Gee, kicks to groin, etc.

Also, Bruce was 135 lbs when he filmed Enter the Dragon (and when he died), not 155 lbs.

Fight and sport science has evolved tremendously since 1973 when he died. Athletes today are stronger and faster, not just martial artists; but to not give Bruce his due for what he accomplished back then is short-sighted. 40 years have passed since his death and he’s still gracing the covers of body building and martial art magazines. His characteristics are still unmistakenly imitated in movies today. That’s one hell of an influence from a “simple kung fu guy”.[/QUOTE]

It has long been reported that while filming Enter the Dragon, Bruce was experiencing uncontrollable weight loss. It was apparently seen as problematic. I heard that he actually dropped down into the 120s. His actual healthy weight was probably somewhere in the 140s.

I don’t think anybody was dissing BL in this thread. In the past, I have personally defended his (actual) accomplishments against some of the BL “haters”. As you said, how many people will still be talked about in a positive manner 42 years after their death? Of course, there’s also haters who get to vent more due to the Internet. But the point is, he did accomplish a lot in his short life.

Ironically, from around the late 1960s, BL did not refer to himself as “a kung fu guy”. He had adopted quite a lot from Western sources (boxing, fencing, and various training methods and ideas on nutrition), as well as other Eastern sources into his personal routine. He had distanced himself from much of the traditional CMA by then.

12

[QUOTE=SifuYui;1285120] This one is easy to answer - Aldo would win because he’s trained for the ring and it’s rules. Bruce would be hampered by the rules of the ring as he can’t do finger jabs to the eyes or any other disallowed techniques he’s used to training. [/QUOTE]

What an amazing technique…extending 2 fingers and poking someone in the eye…as fast and hard as possible. I doubt that any Profession MMA fighters can ever learn how to accomplish this, not even all the way up to UFC fighters, including even the best of the best such as Aldo. How many jabs do Pro Boxers throws in an average 2 minute round? 30-40 jabs? Wonder how many tens of thousands of jabs they throw while training for speed, precision and power… for most of their lives, everyday at the gym? But I doubt that they’d ever be able to master this spectacular, eye jab thingamajig that you’re talking about.

BTW, the early UFC’s allowed all forms of pressure points, eye jabs, throat strikes, nut squeezing, and just about whatever you want. Only biting, eye gouging and fishhooking were not allowed…BUT didn’t stop the fight nor disqualified anyone. They just got fined $1000/incident but could still win the $60,000 purse at the end of the night and come out way ahead even if they eye gouged or bit 10 times = $60k-10k= $50k which was a hell of a lot for money back in 1994 ($80k today), and still is a lot today for the average Chopsocky BS’er who peddles training DVD’s online…to make in one night.

13

I think you’re misunderstanding my post friedrice. UFC does NOT allow finger jabs to the eye and BL practiced those as part of his training regiment and therefore, he’d be at a disadvantage (not being able to use it) and would lose. The original post, if I’m not mistaken, asked what would happen if both fighters were at the top of their game and fought in the UFC now; NO FURTHER TRAINING FOR THE FIGHT - just an understanding of the rules.

That’s like asking a ballet dancer to do Country Western dancing (or vice versa) without practicing for it. They each would know what the other dancing style is by watching it, but certainly would lose in each other’s contest.

BL didn’t train for the UFC, Aldo does and would have the advantage.

14

[QUOTE=SifuYui;1285310]I think you’re misunderstanding my post friedrice. UFC does NOT allow finger jabs to the eye and BL practiced those as part of his training regiment and [/QUOTE]

Sorry, it is you who misunderstood. The EARLY UFC’s, as clearly stated, did allow finger jabs to the eye. And early UFC fighters were mostly junk, compared to now…with the exceptions of such, like Royce Gracie and a few others, who’d still get destroyed by top fighters today.

What’s the difference between a jab with a full fist and an eye jab with 1-2 fingers? The latter is mostly trained by women who are afraid of getting raped in a darkly lit parking lot.

BL didn’t train for the UFC, Aldo does and would have the advantage.

Punching someone in the face works just the same in the ring as it does in the streets, prison, Mad Max Thunderdome, wherever. No excuses for mythical fighting figures.

15

Did Aldo fight in the early UFC? No, so why even bring that up? The post is about the UFC and its current rules NOW! Sheeeesh!

16

[QUOTE=SifuYui;1285314]Did Aldo fight in the early UFC? No, so why even bring that up? The post is about the UFC and its current rules NOW! Sheeeesh![/QUOTE]

Just to show how comical eye jabs are when trying to talk about combat training (although, with the exception of women who are training to fight off rapists). I mean, did you at one time, pay some dude money to teach you how to poke another dude in the eye or grab and squeeze his balls?

17

If it’s so comical, how come the ref stops the fight when a guy gets poked in the eye? I’ve never seen them stop a fight because they got punched in the eye?

18

[QUOTE=SifuYui;1285318]If it’s so comical, how come the ref stops the fight when a guy gets poked in the eye? I’ve never seen them stop a fight because they got punched in the eye?[/QUOTE]

I guess you really don’t understand why so now I have to explain it to you rather than have you read between the lines. There are many reasons. One being that while an eye poke is effective, you make it sound like no one else knows how to do it except the lame TMA, too deadly for sports, BS people. I already told you that’s it’s just throwing a jab with the fingers extended. You think some fat Kung-Fu guy is going to be faster and more powerful than a UFC fighter or Pro Boxer at jabbing. Then there’s footwork, head movement, slipping, etc. that’s superior in Boxing.

Now one of the other reasons that fights are stopped (temporarily or ended) once there’s even a slight eye poke…is OBVIOUSLY, to gain sympathy so that the other guy could be in danger of a loss of point for the next time or even a DQ. Whether it’s a fight for $0 or $1 million, it’s all part of the game because the other guy violated the rules and the guy harmed, should always try to get the most out of it. Especially if it’s a title fight for MILLIONS, of course he’s going to complain. But in a street fight or some BS fight to the death, fantasy scenario…you think that a UFC fighters is jsut going to drop into fetal position and cry from an eye poke?

And there are many other reasons. But what’s comical is that you think that eye poking is some kind of nuclear weapon or something that no one else can do, and do much better…because you know…they’re athletes maybe?

19

Ummm, yeeeeaaaahhh riiiiiight. Except I never said that (there really should be a reading comprehension requirement to post a reply).

Well, I’m done feeding the troll.

I apologize for derailing the thread MysticNinjaJay.

20

Honestly we shouldn’t even be talking by eye poking. Remember the rules, no cheating. I put that in there for a reason, so we could eliminate factors that would distract from a real fight. This is an ideal fight. UFC rules. Jose Aldo vs. Bruce Lee and it’s a clean fight.