about Bruce Lee

[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;738391]this is as laughable as it is tragic. sometimes earth worms crawl out of their mossy lair to preach a sermon on man. i say earth worms go back home, let the foibles of man not concern you, for man’s prowess is out of your clammy reach.

over and over again i have heard a variety of martial artists criticise Bruce Lee. I find it both repugnant and repulsive. funnily enough, it is the more capable martial artists who show deep respect for the accomplishments of Lee. many cite him as the reason they first forayed into Gung Fu in the first place. it is, however, those insecure worms that tend to be the most disrespectful.

had it not been for Bruce Lee, this forum would not be what it is, Wing Chun would not have been as established as it has become, we would likely heard little of great men such as Wong Shun Leung, Ip Man and Jesse Glover. There would never have been an Enter the Dragon which incidentally continues to be voted the greatest martial arts film of all time. we would not have an Inosanto, Ted Wong or Mike Lee. he destroyed racist stereotypes that prevailed in the media during his lifetime. he was well read, his library housing a range of topis from martial arts to the poetry of Rumi.

to be honest, i dont care if the man fought publicly. however, i am led to believe that he was an incredibly explosive man. he had an abundance of fast twitch fiber. this is apparent in the footage readily available on e.g. Youtube.

an original Bruce Lee student said that people were only able to hit Lee if he let them. he was just too quick. the same student was also present when Lee fought a Karate man in a streetfight (circa 1959). the fight lasted 11 seconds. guess who won.

what next… Was Mother Theresa a virtuous person?

Go train.[/QUOTE]

Well said. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see from the mass collection of real life clips and full movies around that B.Lee was a master, one of a kind. People like LungHushan are a reminder to me that there are plenty of shallow minded people in the MA world just like any other place. Lung would just be another non-believer that would be humbled by Lee if he were still alive and then offer to carry Lee’s bags wherever he went after getting schooled.

How someone becomes so narrow-minded and negative concerning someone who has done so much for MA like Lee did, I do not know.

-respectz.

[QUOTE=lunghushan;737645]Yeah, he wrote a book about how styles sucked and then filled the book about how he fought and what worked. Creating his own style.

LOL LOL LOL
.[/QUOTE]

Dude…I understand the difference between fiction and reality…but Bruce was a beast. His muscles were not cosmetic. (He was soooo toned, it was almost kind of gross). His cardio was so strong, he was basically indefatiguable.

As for JKD–it’s not a style.

It’s more of a philsophy. It’s the credo for MMA…take what works. He did shut down his schools b/c people started to treat it like a style. I admire him for his dedication to his philsophy…and even follow it. But I don’t study boxing,fencing, etc…I study what I think is good for me.

With his speed, strength, and cardio, and dedication to MA, I have no doubt he could whip up on guys like Chuck (who’s pretty badass in his own right, only he catches flack b/c his movies weren’t any good [MIA…that one with the asthmatic kid who has rampant Chuck Norris fantasies…just sick:D ).

He was an innovator and an MA. He also made some sweet flicks. But he couldn’t have made the flicks if he wasn’t pretty badass first. We’re talking about MA cinema without wirework and CG, and ballet-wushu.

[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;738391]

had it not been for Bruce Lee, this forum would not be what it is, Wing Chun would not have been as established as it has become, we would likely heard little of great men such as Wong Shun Leung, Ip Man and Jesse Glover. There would never have been an Enter the Dragon which incidentally continues to be voted the greatest martial arts film of all time. we would not have an Inosanto, Ted Wong or Mike Lee. he destroyed racist stereotypes that prevailed in the media during his lifetime. he was well read, his library housing a range of topis from martial arts to the poetry of Rumi.[/QUOTE]

Excellent post. Should be a thread killer.

If only he hadn’t died so young…:frowning:

[QUOTE=Wu Wei Wu;738391]this is as laughable as it is tragic. sometimes earth worms crawl out of their mossy lair to preach a sermon on man. i say earth worms go back home, let the foibles of man not concern you, for man’s prowess is out of your clammy reach.

over and over again i have heard a variety of martial artists criticise Bruce Lee. I find it both repugnant and repulsive. funnily enough, it is the more capable martial artists who show deep respect for the accomplishments of Lee. many cite him as the reason they first forayed into Gung Fu in the first place. it is, however, those insecure worms that tend to be the most disrespectful.

had it not been for Bruce Lee, this forum would not be what it is, Wing Chun would not have been as established as it has become, we would likely heard little of great men such as Wong Shun Leung, Ip Man and Jesse Glover. There would never have been an Enter the Dragon which incidentally continues to be voted the greatest martial arts film of all time. we would not have an Inosanto, Ted Wong or Mike Lee. he destroyed racist stereotypes that prevailed in the media during his lifetime. he was well read, his library housing a range of topis from martial arts to the poetry of Rumi.

to be honest, i dont care if the man fought publicly. however, i am led to believe that he was an incredibly explosive man. he had an abundance of fast twitch fiber. this is apparent in the footage readily available on e.g. Youtube.

an original Bruce Lee student said that people were only able to hit Lee if he let them. he was just too quick. the same student was also present when Lee fought a Karate man in a streetfight (circa 1959). the fight lasted 11 seconds. guess who won.

what next… Was Mother Theresa a virtuous person?

Go train.[/QUOTE]

I’m glad that my first post on this forum gets to be a ‘nod’ to this statement. I dont know why people get so hooked up on the issue of ‘how good was Bruce Lee?’ From what I’ve heard the man himself was under no illusions about his skills and deferred to Wong Shun Leung but so what…? Just because he couldn’t leap tall buildings in a single bound and wasn’t faster than a speeding bullet that doesn’t take away from his significance as an individual for all the reasons Wu Wei Wu highlights.

To me, the subject of this thread is akin to asking whether or not Huo Yuan Jia lives up to his legend? During his lifetime other legends like Cheng Tinghua and Yang Banhou were all in their prime and other great fighters of the generation prior like Guo Yunshen were still around. Could Huo Yuan Jia have beaten them all? There’s a Chinese dictum that in the south there is Wong Fei Hung and in the north there is Huo Yuan Jia. Does the yellow faced tiger deserve this acclaim though? Was he truly the greatest fighter north of the Yangtze during his lifetime? Really is it that important?

Whats true about Huo Yuan Jia is that he had proven fight skills and that he started an important movement of public teaching of Chinese Martial arts. Likewise Bruce Lee. Leave it at that.

By all accounts, Lee was amazingly fast. Was he a great fighter? He probably was better than a lot of martial artists of his time, but more than likely, not as good as athletes like boxers and wrestlers (Judoka/wrestler Gene Lebell easily handled him when they mixed it up) who were regularly going full force and competing against other equally skilled and conditioned opponents.

Lots of karate guys were impressed with him, but you have to remember, they were all doing point fighting at that time and this was probably the first time they were exposed first-hand to someone whose idea of training was to work in a more “live” type of context and actually do some hard sparring (and, even then, their sparring was not usually as hard as what most boxers would do on a regular basis).

Additionally, lots of people who trained with Lee “played his game”. That is, a lot of his teaching involved working with Wing Chun’s chi sao drills. Lee was a master at these types of drills and could easily outclass and awe his training partners, although it really wasn’t any type of measure of real fighting ability. Much of what Lee was able to do to impress people didn’t have a whole lot to do with fighting another skilled fighter (i.e. one-inch punch, snappy high kicks, chi sao, one finger push-ups, ripped physique).

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;738461]By all accounts, Lee was amazingly fast. Was he a great fighter? He probably was better than a lot of martial artists of his time, but more than likely, not as good as athletes like boxers and wrestlers (Judoka/wrestler Gene Lebell easily handled him when they mixed it up) who were regularly going full force and competing against other equally skilled and conditioned opponents.

Lots of karate guys were impressed with him, but you have to remember, they were all doing point fighting at that time and this was probably the first time they were exposed first-hand to someone whose idea of training was to work in a more “live” type of context and actually do some hard sparring.

Additionally, lots of people who trained with Lee “played his game”. That is, a lot of his teaching involved working in Wing Chun’s chi sao drills. Lee was a master at these types of drills and could easily outclass and awe his training partners, although it really wasn’t any type of measure of real fighting ability. Much of what Lee was able to do to impress people didn’t have a whole lot to do with fighting another skilled fighter.[/QUOTE]

And keep in mind, KF knows many people who trained with LEE or descend from Lee’s teachings…

Yeah…so do I.

In addition to Dan Inosanto - who spent a week with us at Moy Yat’s school in September, 1979…I also had the opportunity to get to know Ted Wong back in 1990 when he was one the guest’s of honor for the weekend seminar/50 th birthday party celebration of Grandmaster William Cheung (my wing chun sifu from 8/83 to the present)…in Boulder, Colorado.

In fact, Ted Wong sat next to William Cheung during my grading for the Gold Sash in William Cheung’s Traditional Wing Chun system…TWC… (the highest rank William was giving out in those days)…although he’s since expanded the grading structure to include other things such as weapons, etc…beyond the test for Gold Sash.

And my test included bare knuckled full contact sparring with sneakers on that included headshots, kicks to the groin, etc. (with no protective equipment except a mouthpiece and a groin cup).

So it’s not like only certain people around here have a monopoly on knowing what serious sparring/fighting is all about.

Ted Wong and William Cheung were in the midst of collaborating on a book at that time that compared JKD to TWC…and Ted put in an amazing JKD demo that Saturday night…The guy was already 53 years old and still super fast/conditioned.

And both had plenty of hard sparring - and in the case of Willam, at least, real fighting experience in their day. (Perhaps Ted too, I don’t really know enough about that to say one way or another.)

But I do know that he was very good - and not afraid of real fighting, for sure.

In fact - do you recall the…I think it was an Inside Kung Fu executive…who was stabbed to death back in those days? (I don’t remember his name at the moment).

Well he had just had lunch with William Cheung and Ted Wong at some restaurant…he said good-bye…walked around the corner…and was attacked by his assailant…William and Ted heard the screams…came running…and Ted chased the assailant while William attended to the victim…

Ted caught up to him and actually tried to subdue the guy (unsuccessfully)…who got away. (Ted was not hurt).

And I’ve personally seen the knife wound that William Cheung still carries to this day on his back (a fight back in 1959)…

So we’re not talking about some guys who’ve never done anything other than some friendly amateur sparring against untrained/unskilled opponents here.

These guys are the real deal.

And the same applies to Bruce Lee.

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;738573]In addition to Dan Inosanto - who spent a week with us at Moy Yat’s school in September, 1979…I also had the opportunity to get to know Ted Wong back in 1990 when he was one the guest’s of honor for the weekend seminar/50 th birthday party celebration of Grandmaster William Cheung (my wing chun sifu from 8/83 to the present)…in Boulder, Colorado.

So it’s not like only certain people around here have a monopoly on knowing what serious sparring/fighting is all about. [/QUOTE]
You were with them for how long? A total of 9 days between the two of them? How would a total of 9 days give you insight into how they and Lee trained and sparred in his system?
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;738573]
These guys are the real deal.
And the same applies to Bruce Lee.[/QUOTE]
Depends on what you mean by the real deal. Was there some hard sparring? Yeah, occasionally. But not much in comparison to what boxers, Muay Thai fighters, wrestlers and judokas were doing back then… and definitely not much compared to what today’s competitive MMA fighters currently do.

KF’s Death Challenge FAQ…funny, dude…

viii) Nobody’s mom is allowed in.

ix) Please note that the judicial system does not recognize Trial by Combat anymore. …Frickin’ lawyers gone and spoiled everything.

x) Challenges involving tai chi practitioners will take place at full speed.:smiley: :smiley:

xi) All participants are to govern their actions with strict attention to courtesy and decorum as… Cough, cough… Okay, I know I’m not fooling anybody with this one.

xii) If the “Delayed Death Touch” is used, the impending time of death must be announced in advance - much like calling your shot in pool. Both participants must then sit in chairs until the appointed time. A death occurring within 10 minutes of the agreed-upon time will constitute a victory.:stuck_out_tongue: :smiley:

His muscles were not cosmetic. (He was soooo toned…)

Sounds like a serious man-crush to me. :wink:

By all accounts, Lee was amazingly fast. Was he a great fighter? He probably was better than a lot of martial artists of his time, but more than likely, not as good as athletes like boxers and wrestlers (Judoka/wrestler Gene Lebell easily handled him when they mixed it up) who were regularly going full force and competing against other equally skilled and conditioned opponents.

Lots of karate guys [and movie-star students of his–i.t.] were impressed with him, but you have to remember, they were all doing point fighting at that time and this was probably the first time they were exposed first-hand to someone whose idea of training was to work in a more “live” type of context and actually do some hard sparring.

Additionally, lots of people who trained with Lee “played his game”. That is, a lot of his teaching involved working in Wing Chun’s chi sao drills. Lee was a master at these types of drills and could easily outclass and awe his training partners, although it really wasn’t any type of measure of real fighting ability. Much of what Lee was able to do to impress people didn’t have a whole lot to do with fighting another skilled fighter.

Imo, KF’s post is one of the best I’ve yet read on this forum.

And btw, there were also several highly accomplished karate guys who weren’t so impressed with Lee once they got a first-hand look. Lewis & Norris being two, Norris being the more diplomatic about it.

[QUOTE=iron tiger;738651]Sounds like a serious man-crush to me. :wink: .[/QUOTE]

Hmmm…more like respect for peak conditioning…it’s not easy…:cool:

[QUOTE=iron tiger;738651]Imo, KF’s post is one of the best I’ve yet read on this forum.

And btw, there were also several highly accomplished karate guys who weren’t so impressed with Lee once they got a first-hand look. Lewis & Norris being two, Norris being the more diplomatic about it.[/QUOTE]

I can’t believe I’m saying this…but I agree with that statement.:eek:

“If he was the real deal then name one public fight he won, one tournament he won, one tournament he entered as a competitor and not as an exhibitor.”

I have to agree with that. American fighters who actually proove themselves are never given the credit of Asian “masters” who havent. But somehow the latter are always the “real deal.” What a joke.

Think about this thread for a minute. You have people arguing that a man was a good fighter. This man has no recorded fights. What’s there to argue? Duh.

If youre so inclined, you can give B.Lee all the credit you want. I’ll give the credit and my respect to people like Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris. Too bad if you don’t like it.

this can go on forever people are going to think what they want for some reason they have something against cma and the real teachers they rather go along with the stupid and closed minded westeners they have the bigest egos thats why the always have to try and prove themselvs key word try

Everything is time relative…The bottom line is…major parts of the martial arts world at that time were thoroughly impressed with Lee’s abilities…Ed Parker, Jhoon Rhee, Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, Mike Stone, Bolo (forgot his real name), Bob Wall, etc. (And if Lewis and Norris have changed their stories now - that’s their problem).

And here’s some of what Gene Lebell had to say about Bruce Lee in his recent book, “TOUGHEST MAN ALIVE”:

“I taught Bruce Lee judo and finishing holds and he taught me his way of doing kung fu and I still use some of his moves today in the movies today as a stuntman” (p.228)

“One time Bruce and I were training, Bruce kicked me really hard. I remember thinking that it was a good thing that he only wore a size 6 shoe instead of a 14 like me, otherwise that kick would have sent me over the Great Wall of China. He was not only strong for his size but nobody was faster. I loved that man…”

"He had two students that I remain good friends with to this day…Danny Inosanto, who is every bit as good as Bruce was if not better, and Richard Bustillo. Richard has carried on Bruce’s philosophy of cross training and peak physical condition in order to become the best fighter that you can. Gokor Chivichyan and I still give grappling seminars at Richard Bustillo’s dojo every year. " (P.168)

So what that he wasn’t doing that much grappling in those days?! Who really was?

Is there any doubt in your mind about what he’d be doing if he were 25 years old today? Or how good he’d be? Given his skill level, natural attributes, and his penchant for cross training, heavy conditioning, and hard realistic sparring?

The guy was great for his time. And if this was his time he’d be great today.

[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;738728]
And here’s some of what Gene Lebell had to say about Bruce Lee in his recent book, “TOUGHEST MAN ALIVE”:[/QUOTE]
“Toughest Man Alive” as in Lebell, not Lee.

“I taught Bruce Lee judo and finishing holds and he taught me his way of doing kung fu and I still use some of his moves today[SIZE=“3”] in the movies[/SIZE] today as a stuntman” (p.228)

He was not only strong [SIZE=“3”] for his size[/SIZE] but nobody was faster."

So what that he wasn’t doing that much grappling in those days?! Who really was?

All the Judokas, wrestlers, Sambo and BJJ practitioners

The guy was great for his time.

I don’t think one can say he was great compared to the elite level athletes such boxers, Muay Thai fighters, wrestlers, and Judo players of that time.

And if this was his time he’d be great today.

Maybe… but he’d probably need to concentrate more on real fighting and less on movies.[SIZE=“3”][/SIZE]

More fighting - less movies…SURE.

OKAY…I buy that.

But Bruce Lee was THE FIRST ONE in the modern era to place heavy emphasis on CROSSTRAINING.

And within all the striking/kicking oriental martial arts traditions (Thai boxing the sole exception since it was the national sport of Thailand)…

he was the first one in the modern era to emphasize all-out full contact sparring with protective gear, full power headshots, etc.

And when guys twice his size like Joe Lewis walk away and compliment him, his style of fighting (ie.- 5 angles of atttack), his speed, etc…and when guys like Lebell take positive note of his kicking skill, emphasis on conditioning, cardio, etc…

and both guys just mentioned did compete in world class fighting events and won…

then you have to put two and two together…

and it all adds up to: EXCELLENT FIGHTER.

i cant even finish reading this thread.

just being curious i thought i would see what this thread is about.

here is what ive noticed this thread is about…

a lot of people speaking based on what they want to say…not on facts.

because no one really has much fact.

here are the facts anyone needs to know.

  1. bruce lee was real, alive and a martial artist

  2. bruce lee was not a professional fighter.

  3. bruce lee had great attributes to be a fighter, and put in enough time and thought, so that had he wanted to make the leap, he could have.

  4. bruce lee decided not to fight, like many martial artists do.

  5. bruce lee was an actor, martial artists and philosopher, who has done more in his life than anyone else here.

  6. people like to speak through jealousy or ignorance.

  7. leave the mans past in the past. live your own life, and dont worry about how good bruce lee was. hes dead.

shut up, go home, and train.

talking sh!t about a dead guy will not improve YOUR skills.

But Bruce Lee was THE FIRST ONE in the modern era to place heavy emphasis on CROSSTRAINING.

You hear this one a lot but it only seems true because of his popularity of that era. He did bring crosstraining vastly more into the main public eye but he was not the first one to pickup the concept.

There were other folks who had a emphasis on crosstraining during that time period and even way before. Prof Vistiacion, Moses Powell, Dr.Gyi, Charles Nelson, Bernard J. Cosneck, Adriano Emperado’s group, actually there seem to be a number really.

[QUOTE]Sounds like a serious man-crush to me

Hmmm…more like respect for peak conditioning…it’s not easy…[/QUOTE]

'Twas but a joke. Pretty common tease other sports boards.

:slight_smile:

I laugh out loud everytime I hear the claim that Bruce Lee invented cross training

At the turn of the century (uh, 19th to 20th), those guys doing boxing and catch wrestling weren’t cross training?

Savate wasn’t cross training when they combined southern FRENCH kicks with northern FRENCH slaps and English boxing?

The Sambo guys in the early part of the 20th century weren’t cross training when they combined native forms of wrestling with Japanese judo, western boxing and Chinese striking?

Hapkido, which was established in Korea in the 1940’s isn’t cross training when it took Korean and Japanese martial arts and combined them?

The Tang Shou Dao guys in Taiwan weren’t cross training when they combined Hsing Yi and Judo?

Kempo, Kajukenbo, Arnis, all before Lee