A Clip

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1095953]I have to stand by what I just posted on another thread. There is no ‘authentic’ system of Wing Chun, there are however authentic teachers, each having unique teaching styles that have survived from one generation to the next.[/QUOTE]

I would say that there is no ONE authentic system of Wing Chun, but there are various lineages/schools/sifus that are authentic, that is, they teach the system while maintaining its distinct concepts, principles and corresponding methodologies.

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1095953]If anyone knows of a Teacher currently living that has a secret recipe for Wing Chun itself and not just their own take on the system, please message me :D[/QUOTE]
You may have misunderstood my post. I was not talking about secret recipes for Wing Chun, but again, when you are discussing any discipline then you must take into account that there are wrong ways and right ways of doing it.

The wrong way, is usually the unauthentic way…

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[QUOTE=Buddha_Fist;1095951]Here’s one of those genuine mountain hermits that teach secret and deadly traditional martial arts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd7M4H0b62k

:D[/QUOTE]

You have no clue about what is being discussed and are proving my point about people who have never practiced genuine TCMAs, but just empty shells…

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[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1095957]I would say that there is no ONE authentic system of Wing Chun, but there are various lineages/schools/sifus that are authentic, that is, they teach the system while maintaining its distinct concepts, principles and corresponding methodologies.[/QUOTE]

I understand. But what you consider ‘distinct’ stuf is in fact the language of the ancestors. Most westerners, unfortunately, do not take that stuff seriously enough IMHO

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1095957]The wrong way, is usually the unauthentic way…[/QUOTE]

Yes and no. :D;)

Wasn’t it actually Ip Man that suggested that after proper training there is no wrong way? This is what I feel has been misinterpreted by the MMA WCK add-on crowds.

They simply have inproper foundations (according to TCMA) No traditional learning. BUT the same can be said for many of Ip Mans direct students!!!

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[QUOTE=couch;1095916]You don’t come right out and say it - but you INFER it. That is the underlying tone in every one of your posts. See here with the :rolleyes: and the other bit I’ve excerpted:[/QUOTE]

What I “infer” with “:rolleyes:” is the fact that most Wing Chun and other Kung Fu schools out there teach Mc Kung fu, or at best incomplete standardized commercial - empty or alsmost empty shell - versions, if you like.
That means most people who study “kung fu” are being taken for a ride, one way or another.

I believe that very few people here would argue with the fact that most kung fu schools out there are substandard. However, they all think that their understanding of kung fu is valid, which it definitely is not, and it is all over their posts and takes on Wing Chun and kung fu in general, and is reflected in the modern MMA inclinations of this whole forum!

So, it is not about me studying kung fu genuinly, as there are a few others here, but we are in the minority, and we do not see Ken Shamrock as a reference for good kung fu…

[QUOTE=couch;1095916]So let me ask you: do you believe that YOU possess a non-empty shell of TCMA?[/QUOTE]
It is not about “possessing” anything. It is about studying kung fu authentically, which I DO!

[QUOTE=couch;1095916]A complete system? [/QUOTE]
I study it COMPLETELY, the way it was meant to be studied, not some imcomplete standardized, including easy to teach version, for commercial purposes!

The system is rich and deals with the combat aspects holistically. I have never said that it possesses all the techniques in the book!

[QUOTE=couch;1095916]Something that isn’t lacking in any areas?[/QUOTE]

The only thing lacking from kung fu schools and styles nowadays is authenticity and genuine sifus who know their arts and teach them COMPLETELY, including the aspects that most bird brains would find “boring” or “fantasy”.

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1095965]I understand. But what you consider ‘distinct’ stuf is in fact the language of the ancestors. Most westerners, unfortunately, do not take that stuff seriously enough IMHO[/QUOTE]

Very true, and there are of course cultural reasons for it, but that is where most Westerners miss out.

They do not take some of the stuff that they don’t understand seriously, hence they study the stuff that they see as “valid”, while discarding the hard to understand stuff as “useless”, “fantasy”, “superstition”, as well as the usual clueless takes such as, “this kind of striking/blocking is impractical. The master who developed this must have had one leg shorter than the other; crooked fingers; a glass eye, etc…”

At the end of the day you end up having incomplete Wing Chun being taught, and each generation of clueless students take out and add what they think the system needs, and they call it evolution, without realizing that to evolve any discipline, one needs to master it first, to develop complete understanding of all of its dimensions.

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1095965]Yes and no. :D;)

Wasn’t it actually Ip Man that suggested that after proper training there is no wrong way? This is what I feel has been misinterpreted by the MMA WCK add-on crowds.[/QUOTE]

You have hit the nail on the head!

How many people who “evolve” Wing Chun nowadays, have had PROPER training?

I believe that most people who “evolve” Wing Chun nowadays, to so to make teaching (selling) it easier, by simplifying/standardizing it. Of course, there are those who find the incomplete art that they have learned lacking (obviously) in the combat effectiveness department. So, they go on to “evolve” it by perhaps adding Tae Kwon Do kicks; Boxing hooks; BJJ ground fighting; Muay Thai, etc, etc.

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1095965]They simply have inproper foundations (according to TCMA) No traditional learning. [/QUOTE]

I believe that we both agree on the fundamental importance of learning proper foundations.

[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1095965]BUT the same can be said for many of Ip Mans direct students!!![/QUOTE]

Which raises some very important questions. For example, could it be possible that not all who claim to be Ip Man’s direct students, were his direct students?

Or, is it true that Ip Man did not teach everything to ALL of his students?

Is it possible that not all of Ip Man’s direct students were “good” students?

Some say that Ip Man’s passion in life was NOT teaching kung fu. That he only taught to survive economically? Could this be true?

Also, could it be that some of his students could not care less about correct foundations and tradition, as long as they had healthy standardized franchise kung fu businesses?

Having said that, I believe that not all of Ip Man’s students had improper learning. So, that is something good.

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Wasn’t it actually Ip Man that suggested that after proper training there is no wrong way?

Did you hear that from the man himself? Thought not.

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[QUOTE=anerlich;1096133]Did you hear that from the man himself? Thought not.[/QUOTE]

You’re a funny guy :smiley:

A bit annoying, but funny all the same…

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…that’s not annoying…it’s true. Some people act like they knew Ip Man himself. The truth is we cannot be sure of anything. Most of the stories from years gone by would have been hyped up and distorted. It happens in all walks of life not just Ving Tsun. Just because you practice Kung Fu does not make you honest, humble and genuine. The truth is the people that have evolved Ving Tsun and passed it down could say anything they want and people will beleive. The stories of Ng Mui and the history of Ving Tsun show this exactly. It’s not true. Thats a fact but how many people swear by it? Just like God and most religions. It’s all stories!!

GH

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True you say? You have actual evidence yourself that says Ng Mui did not exist? And Wing Chun herself too?? But you believe Leung Jan existed?? And Leung Yee Tai??

I’d love to see that… :wink:

As for assessing everyones morality and behaviour here, you should take note of your own words sometimes I reckon :stuck_out_tongue:

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I’ll say what I like mate and not you or anybody else can make it otherwise apart from the moderators who spend enough time cleaning my posts up it seems.

As for Ng Mui…it doesn’t surprise me one bit that you may beleive in it. There is no factual proof and that opinion is shared by many. These stories are myths. I beleive in facts and there are some facts with regards to the history of Ving Tsun. This system eveloved through trial and error and was kept in secret groups in a time of much civil unrest in China. I can be thankful to Yip Man - WSL - Philipp Bayer for the system I practice today but for fighting nuns and slight women who overcome villiage bullies its a no no. You only have to listen to the story to realize that it is fabricated. Some say that Ip Man invented these stories because the history is not known. Somebody had to make something up to please the public when all the other Chinese MA’s have equally unbleleivabe stories joined to them.

Wing Chun was devised by a woman from watching a fight between two animals??? BS!!!

Human beings have nothing in common with snakes, cranes and foxes. Maybe you would like to see my wild bore fist style because them bad boys are dangerous!! lmao

GH

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1096179]I’ll say what I like mate and not you or anybody else can make it otherwise apart from the moderators who spend enough time cleaning my posts up it seems.

As for Ng Mui…it doesn’t surprise me one bit that you may beleive in it. There is no factual proof and that opinion is shared by many. These stories are myths. I beleive in facts and there are some facts with regards to the history of Ving Tsun. This system eveloved through trial and error and was kept in secret groups in a time of much civil unrest in China. I can be thankful to Yip Man - WSL - Philipp Bayer for the system I practice today but for fighting nuns and slight women who overcome villiage bullies its a no no. You only have to listen to the story to realize that it is fabricated. Some say that Ip Man invented these stories because the history is not known. Somebody had to make something up to please the public when all the other Chinese MA’s have equally unbleleivabe stories joined to them.

Wing Chun was devised by a woman from watching a fight between two animals??? BS!!!

Human beings have nothing in common with snakes, cranes and foxes. Maybe you would like to see my wild bore fist style because them bad boys are dangerous!! lmao

GH[/QUOTE]

You been popping those testosterone pills again??
Either that or youve just reached puberty from reading your posts

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1096179]Wing Chun was devised by a woman from watching a fight between two animals??? BS!!![/QUOTE]

Like I said, show me the evidence (either way!) NOBODY CAN!

And FWIW I never said ‘I believe’ in the Ng Mui myth (that’s why I call it a myth/legend) but it does have VALUE, cultutally and morally, for Wing Chun students today.

Shame you miss that point entirely, and haven’t read some of my other posts re: Ng Jung Sok and his story telling either :frowning:

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1096172]True you say? You have actual evidence yourself that says Ng Mui did not exist? And Wing Chun herself too?? But you believe Leung Jan existed?? And Leung Yee Tai??[/QUOTE]There are contemporaneous records of Jeung Jan’s existence, and probably an official record in Gulao village. So at a push we can also believe in the existence of Leung Yee Tai, Wong Wah Bo, etc.

i.e. there is strong evidence that Wing Chun/Weng Chun came from the Opera boats.

Why is it such a surprise that a bunch of ‘story tellers’ should spin tales about the origin of their kung fu?

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[QUOTE=CFT;1096190]i.e. there is strong evidence that Wing Chun/Weng Chun came from the Opera boats.[/QUOTE]

Or at least we can somewhat document its existence then. We don’t know what happened before that although there are stories / folklore / oral tradition.

Obviously the people on the Opera boats had to learn things somewhere.

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[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1096193]Or at least we can somewhat document its existence then. We don’t know what happened before that although there are stories / folklore / oral tradition.

Obviously the people on the Opera boats had to learn things somewhere.[/QUOTE]Yes, I agree with you. The firm documentation comes from the opera period onwards.

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[QUOTE=GlennR;1096182]You been popping those testosterone pills again??
Either that or youve just reached puberty from reading your posts[/QUOTE]

Puberty is still 3 years away for me mate!

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but it does have VALUE, cultutally and morally, for Wing Chun students today.

Explain!!

Shame you miss that point entirely, and haven’t read some of my other posts re: Ng Jung Sok and his story telling either.

…because I’m not interested. I don’t care much for it TBH. I used to but now as Glenn says I’m heading towards puberty!

GH

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[QUOTE=CFT;1096190]There are contemporaneous records of Jeung Jan’s existence, and probably an official record in Gulao village. So at a push we can also believe in the existence of Leung Yee Tai, Wong Wah Bo, etc.[/QUOTE]

Official record in Gulao (Kulo)? Right. Have you seen it? If not, then no proof. :rolleyes: My point I am making is that as a student you are kind of expected to believe your teachers stories, and a good teacher will tell you exactly that! He is repeating stories. It is actually up to the individual to complete his/her own research (like Sergio to be fair!)

My Sihing has seen the book written by Leung Jan on TCM, now held by the Ip family, so I take that as pretty hard evidence. But a book can also be faked!!

[QUOTE=CFT;1096190]i.e. there is strong evidence that Wing Chun/Weng Chun came from the Opera boats.[/QUOTE]

From where exactly? Hendrik? Yik Kam lineage? Again, if you aint seen it then your just speculating like everyone else.

I supervised a few students of Operatic Wing Chun who had a heavy Mantis influence, so how do you know that Wing Chun came from there exactly?

ANYWAY! Totally off subject I know, so I will stop now :smiley:

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1096206]Explain!!

…because I’m not interested.[/QUOTE]

Fairplay to you. I don’t really care that much for all the stories either. I’m more interested in where students are taking their Wing Chun, rather than worrying about where it all ‘may’ have come from!

And for someone that has a direct link to the Canton Opera through his Sifu, I do find it funny that everyone is supporting the Opera root these days because when I first demonstrated for my Sifu we were branded as ‘performers’! :rolleyes:

How things change…

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1096209]Official record in Gulao (Kulo)? Right. Have you seen it? If not, then no proof. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]I’ve not seen the actual book that has my family tree in it, I only have a copy of a transcription. But I take that as evidence of my family history (going back 27/28 generations). If they followed Chinese traditions in Gulao then there will be a record of Leung Jan’s birth in the family/village ancestral temple.

My Sihing has seen the book written by Leung Jan on TCM, now held by the Ip family, so I take that as pretty hard evidence. But a book can also be faked!!
You’re not related to Donald Trump by any chance? Is Obama really American?

From where exactly? Hendrik? Yik Kam lineage? Again, if you aint seen it then your just speculating like everyone else.

I supervised a few students of Operatic Wing Chun who had a heavy Mantis influence, so how do you know that Wing Chun came from there exactly?
The verifiable trail ends with the Red Boat Opera. We don’t know what kung fu was practiced before it got to the boats, but what came out after is Wing Chun/Weng Chun.