…all I am saying 
kidding. its a good breakdown showing development of each others ‘parts’ , elbows in, hips with elbows, timing, distance , wu sao integrity, alignment of strikes, angling off line of force tactically, countering with attacking actions, “cutting the way” aka lateral shifting with opponents movement while facing…
just sharing.
enjoy. BTW the Youngster is only 17 and has been training for 4 months.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwCuIvbWYa4&feature=player_embedded
**** good for 4 months.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1094844]…all I am saying kidding. its a good breakdown showing development of each others ‘parts’ , elbows in, hips with elbows, timing, distance , wu sao integrity, alignment of strikes, angling off line of force tactically, countering with attacking actions, “cutting the way” aka lateral shifting with opponents movement while facing…
just sharing.
enjoy. BTW the Youngster is only 17 and has been training for 4 months.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwCuIvbWYa4&feature=player_embedded[/QUOTE]
Your roots are “different” from the way I practice. Also, there is also the usual going back during that we don’t practice.
I guess differences in methodolgies are given when it comes to kung fu training and practice…
The ’ going back ’ is angling and back relative to the line of force
Incoming. We use movement from chum kil / knives. Standing in front of 2 lines of force that can each come randomly at speed can be 1/2’ed by this idea. The resulting angling gives a facing counter to a non facing entry. We adopt both roles so we also train to intuitively re-face a guy angling or moving to a flank as we enter. Distance and facing with cadence, speed balance, force …
The old guy in the track suit is leaning forward too much which doesn’t make a good strong structure. There is also too much shoulder lifting and muscle tension present that I can see.
Hopefully these bad habits don’t crossover on to the young student.
[QUOTE=Dantien;1095260]The old guy in the track suit is leaning forward too much which doesn’t make a good strong structure. There is also too much shoulder lifting and muscle tension present that I can see.
Hopefully these bad habits don’t crossover on to the young student.[/QUOTE]
I agree and I have some doubts about his rooting, but I don’t want to start World War 3 here.
Also, as I mentioned, going back is a not something that is encouraged in the Mainland Chinese Wing Chun that I study, unless during an emergency when one step is taken back to recover oneself and the central line.
I guess it is a matter of different lineages and all that…
In my Chow Gar training, going back was not encouraged either in practice. I know of at least one other respected sifu in London (where I practiced Chow Gar) who does not train his students to go back.
I believe that this kung fu approach has to do with the idea of not giving ground, and lets face it, if you are in a real fight you go in to finish the job and not “spar”, specially when there could be a danger giving your opponent time to pull a weapon or of one being attacked by his friends if the fight turns into some kind of sparring match.
Unfortunately, to learn the art of “not going back” one has to practice advanced Kung fu levels/concepts/skills (fine-tuned sensitivity/“listening” abilities; real close range power, potent body unity and roots, etc - which are not so easily sellable in todays fast food society.
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1095271]“not going back”[/QUOTE]
No matter how strong your opponent’s attack may be, you will never go back is a very important TCMA training. In the old time, you draw a small circle around you to make sure that you don’t move back out of that circle.
On the other extream, you have to be able to move back faster than your opponent’s advance. If you can move back 10 feet in one backward jump, you will be able to remove your opponent’s momentum advantage away.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1095272]No matter how strong your opponent’s attack may be, you will never go back is a very important TCMA training. In the old time, you draw a small circle around you to make sure that you don’t move back out of that circle. [/QUOTE]
I am glad that you agree. It seems that the message of “not going back” has been lost in today’s modern “kung fu” training. As I mentioned before, I believe the special skills that are needed for one to maintain his ground in a fight are nowadays unknown to some “sifus” and those who know may not bother to teach it to just anyone who walks into their kwoon.
However, I believe that just trying to understand the mindset of not going back and what is needed to accomplish it in practice will point the finger towards some of the lesser known TCMA aspects or “secrets”.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1095272]On the other extream, you have to be able to move back faster than your opponent’s advance. If you can move back 10 feet in one backward jump, you will be able to remove your opponent’s momentum advantage away.[/QUOTE]
That makes sense too.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1095272]No matter how strong your opponent’s attack may be, you will never go back is a very important TCMA training. In the old time, you draw a small circle around you to make sure that you don’t move back out of that circle.
On the other extream, you have to be able to move back faster than your opponent’s advance. If you can move back 10 feet in one backward jump, you will be able to remove your opponent’s momentum advantage away.[/QUOTE]
We used to make people drill and spar with their back to the wall if they made it a bad habit. It worked pretty well.
We use a lot of mobility to fight, I would add that its more about attacking [forward] that is a better idea, than not going back at all rigidly. We try not to go back in a straight line ergo angling offside the line of force as we are countering.
From drilling we keep forward intent not backwards seung ma toi ma drills using the tan sao as the role playing entering/stepping line of force.
The distances of the 2 guys are the same when the step angling back is done, so that the angler doesn’t lose striking distances as the attacker comes in. As they come we angle with their cadence , force is exchanged to prepare for the no contact to contact when fighting/sparring from distance to entry.
Knives use this idea of strategy, missing in a lot of vt, ergo back and forth eggbeaters from hell punching , so many would not know it as a tactical idea if they didnt learn it.
The size difference would explain the lean and the higher arms ie, bong, from the youngster…
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1095242]The ’ going back ’ is angling and back relative to the line of force
Incoming. We use movement from chum kil / knives. Standing in front of 2 lines of force that can each come randomly at speed can be 1/2’ed by this idea. The resulting angling gives a facing counter to a non facing entry. We adopt both roles so we also train to intuitively re-face a guy angling or moving to a flank as we enter. Distance and facing with cadence, speed balance, force …[/QUOTE]
These guys have no idea what you are on about Kev. Co-operation, developing the correct skills and ideas through the correct training methods is not present in their WC schools. From their posts its easy to see that they are in wing chun la la land as we used to be. No point in conferring with them.
The whole idea of Seung Ma/Toi Ma (pushing) and the reasons for going back is not part of their training otherwiswe they wouldn’t respond with such rubbish answers. Never going back (as one muppet said) shows that he has never fought anything else but his reflection.
FFS one guy (dantien) is picking faults in Nedrets movements!!! Nedret is a good coach and his Ving Tsun is good. Maybe Dantien should go to his school and Nedret can talk with his hands!!! He doesn’t take any BS!!!
GH
I know a majority have no clues but at least they hear the thinking ; )
Quotes from Graham & Kevin:
These guys have no idea “G”
They are in wing chun la la land “G”
I know a majority have no clues “K”
(as one “”“muppet”“” said) shows that he has never fought anything else but his reflection… “G”
I know it must seem all warm and fuzzy in your little WC Universe, especially considering all you do and know is superb, BUT, the only thing both of you are doing is repeating nonsense and to this day not one clip of anything other than WC “EXERCISES” with other WC “PEOPLE”. :eek:
Yes! Sad fact boys. Chi Sao, Gor Sao, etc. “no matter how much you turn up the intensity” are still just training exercises… Nothing more, nothing less. Now, since WC is a fighting art why not show some of that superior Kung Fu being used against other arts rather than against your own students… 
Yawn 
[QUOTE=Graham H;1095292]These guys have no idea what you are on about Kev. Co-operation, developing the correct skills and ideas through the correct training methods is not present in their WC schools.[/QUOTE]
Too much co-operation in the kwoon can get you killed in the street. You can however, co-operate a little but still not go backward.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1095292]From their posts its easy to see that they are in wing chun la la land as we used to be. No point in conferring with them.[/QUOTE]
Actually, the concept of not going back is TCMA concept. However, and unfortunately nowadays, most Wing Chun is practiced as a none-TCMA art. The TCMA essence has been taken out of it in favor of flash and razzmataz, making it more like standardized one dimensional kickboxing than an actual kung fu style with its various dimensions, ranges, energies and so on.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1095292]The whole idea of Seung Ma/Toi Ma (pushing) and the reasons for going back is not part of their training otherwiswe they wouldn’t respond with such rubbish answers. Never going back (as one muppet said) shows that he has never fought anything else but his reflection. [/QUOTE]
Don’t underestimate my reflection.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1095292]FFS one guy (dantien) is picking faults in Nedrets movements!!! [/QUOTE]
There are right ways of doing a given kung fu style and there are wrong ways. The question is wether what is presented is an actual TCMA or a shadow of an actual TCMA.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1095292]Nedret is a good coach and his Ving Tsun is good. Maybe Dantien should go to his school and Nedret can talk with his hands!!! He doesn’t take any BS!!!
[/QUOTE]
No one said that “Nedret” cannot fight and no martial artist should “take BS”, but they should take constructive criticisms in order to improve. If given TCMA concepts, such as not liftng the shoulder; not going back, and rooting, are unfamiliar to them they are obliged to investigate the logic behind those concepts, that is if they are actually practicing a given TCMA, and not just a shadow of it…
[QUOTE=Dantien;1095260]The old guy in the track suit is leaning forward too much which doesn’t make a good strong structure. There is also too much shoulder lifting and muscle tension present that I can see.
Hopefully these bad habits don’t crossover on to the young student.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Jim Roselando;1095343]Quotes from Graham & Kevin:
These guys have no idea “G”
They are in wing chun la la land “G”
I know a majority have no clues “K”
(as one “”“muppet”“” said) shows that he has never fought anything else but his reflection… “G”
I know it must seem all warm and fuzzy in your little WC Universe, especially considering all you do and know is superb, BUT, the only thing both of you are doing is repeating nonsense and to this day not one clip of anything other than WC “EXERCISES” with other WC “PEOPLE”. :eek:
Yes! Sad fact boys. Chi Sao, Gor Sao, etc. “no matter how much you turn up the intensity” are still just training exercises… Nothing more, nothing less. Now, since WC is a fighting art why not show some of that superior Kung Fu being used against other arts rather than against your own students…
Yawn [/QUOTE]
Jim I simply posted a clip…the rest I expected; )
Have no clue about my explanations.
Many have never heard knife tactics..or held knives in years of training VT…that is my response…no clue.
If we fight with weapons you don’t stand rigidly not moving back against wall…: )
The youngsters been training 4 months…
Liked the clip Kev. Surprised (or not) by the negativity. Decent beginner attempt at lap sau drill etc.
[QUOTE=Jim Roselando;1095343]Quotes from Graham & Kevin:
These guys have no idea “G”
They are in wing chun la la land “G”
I know a majority have no clues “K”
(as one “”“muppet”“” said) shows that he has never fought anything else but his reflection… “G”
I know it must seem all warm and fuzzy in your little WC Universe, especially considering all you do and know is superb, BUT, the only thing both of you are doing is repeating nonsense and to this day not one clip of anything other than WC “EXERCISES” with other WC “PEOPLE”. :eek:
Yes! Sad fact boys. Chi Sao, Gor Sao, etc. “no matter how much you turn up the intensity” are still just training exercises… Nothing more, nothing less. Now, since WC is a fighting art why not show some of that superior Kung Fu being used against other arts rather than against your own students…
Yawn [/QUOTE]
So why practice Ving Tsun at all Mr. All Seeing Eye???
Ving Tsun should improve our base fighting skills should we ever have to use it in the “street”. If it does not then that is down to the person using it and not the system. How can we best prepare for a violent encounter??? I suppose you think that by going and sparring with other styles that may do it do you??? The truth is nothing can prepare you totally for a violent encounter and the truth will never be revealed until it is over.
The best we can assure ourselves is that prior to VT training we may have less of a chance than with it and no more. Victory is never certain no matter who you are. We aint supermen!!!
The system I practice IMO makes the whole process of fighting more simple, efficient and direct. The only thing that detracts the effectiveness of VT is the human factor. The other systems I have experienced makes the fighting process harder and less effective by hanging off peoples arms, trying to sense this stupid energy, and thinking that the style was invented by a woman so therefore we can win a fight by being soft…anybody that thinks that is a f*ing ahole!!!..IMO of course!!!
GH
Actually, the concept of not going back is TCMA concept.
It seems to me that the classical texts (ok, I’m no expert and I certainly haven’t read them all) on chinese military strategy and martial arts all talk about knowing when to attack and when to retreat; knowing when to run an opponent down and when to lure him into a counter-attack.
Even in taijiquan, the skills of “sticking” and “adhering” are not to be interpreted as “never going back” or “never taking a step back”.
From the taiji classics: “Song of Retreat…We must avoid fullness and emphasize emptiness so that our opponent lands on nothing. To fail to retreat when retreat is called for is neither wise nor courageous. A retreat is really an advance if we can turn it into a counter-attack.”
The best scenario, and I’m sure you agree, is to avoid confrontation completely. If it can’t be avoided, then escape is the answer. If already engaged, then one can use going back strategically to gain the advantage, especially against a stronger opponent.
“The skillful warrior attacks so that the enemy cannot defend; He defends so that the enemy cannot attack.” Art of War
This is exactly what is being trained in the lap sau exercise shown in the video. Angling back and letting the attack fall into emptiness while countering with the fook/jum sau.
The attacker, in turn, tries to cut off this (strategic) retreat before it can be used as an effective counter attack by using the diagonal advancing footwork. As a result, both partners are training the timing and positioning necessary for gaining a strategic advantage - attacking so that the enemy cannot defend, and defending so that the enemy cannot attack, as Sun-tzu puts it.
Facing an opponent NOT going back ( not having strategic retreating footwork) is one of the best things that can happen to a grappler, LOL !
Silly not to have the ability to hit while retreating.
Look at Lidell and many others that can even KO a guy while moving back.
Why NOT have the weapon in your arsenal?
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1095271]Also, as I mentioned, going back is a not something that is encouraged in the Mainland Chinese Wing Chun that I study, unless during an emergency when one step is taken back to recover oneself and the central line.[/QUOTE]
That’s the intent. Doing so without putting you in a unfavorable position needs to be trained. You control distance and angle of your position by doing a small step while going seemlessly back to punching.
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1095271]I believe that this kung fu approach has to do with the idea of not giving ground, and lets face it, if you are in a real fight you go in to finish the job and not “spar”, specially when there could be a danger giving your opponent time to pull a weapon or of one being attacked by his friends if the fight turns into some kind of sparring match..[/QUOTE]
$hit happens in a fight. You have to train how to adapt to it when it happens. If you only know how to go forward, you are basically telling me that you have no footwork and are unable to adapt.
[QUOTE=Hardwork108;1095271]Unfortunately, to learn the art of “not going back” one has to practice advanced Kung fu levels/concepts/skills (fine-tuned sensitivity/“listening” abilities; real close range power, potent body unity and roots, etc - which are not so easily sellable in todays fast food society.[/QUOTE]
Fantasy-fu! To be proficient at putting continuous pressure into a relentless attack (a Ving Tsun tenet), you don’t have to join the secret handshake club. Simply train realistically and with the right coaching. To train a relentless attack you gotta have the ability to adapt, not just by means of hand motions, but with your whole body through footwork - and that includes taking steps back when required. Toi-Mah.