how do you do things defferently?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Firstly, can i point out that i am merely posing this question for my own, personal interests. I AM NOT TROLLING!

Secondly, please no politics, i just want a good old fashioned discussion

Thirdly, please take it easy on me its my first post!

i wanted to know about the rarer components of your systems, the things that are never (or even not often) seen in the most popular form of WC, Ip Man branch

i was inspired by what i read about the ‘plum flower post jong’ from LoneTiger & HardWork8, and the questions regarding the kicking form from my own, Lee Shing, lineage

what other treasures are unique to your wing chun system, or what things do you do in your lineage that you rarely see elsewhere - winghunpedia.org (a fantastic site by the way ;)) lists some rare components but they are in red and you cannot yet read about them.

for example, with the plum flower post jong, at what point in the system do you start to learn it? how is it used? what is it used for? what do you hope to acheive when you learn it? (i think i know the answers to this one - but i was using that as an example)

a few i can think of off the top of my head are the 3.5 point pole, the ratten rings, the hong jong, the tripodial dummy, bamboo dummy etc etc

im sure there are many, many more. i’m interested about EVERY wc lineage and would like to hear about the authentic wing chun tools, as i know many branches have incorporated outside influences

regards

David

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Welcome David!

i wanted to know about the rarer components of your systems, the things that are never (or even not often) seen in the most popular form of WC, Ip Man branch

—First, I break the material into San Sik rather than concentrating on the longer linked sets. Each San Sik is practiced in the air first stationary and then with various footwork. Each San Sik is practiced on the dummy. Each San Sik has a two-man drill associated with it and it eventually incorporated into Chi Sao and sparring. Finally, each San Sik is practiced with the Butterfly knives. All of this means that a student is working on the dummy and with the knives very early in the curriculum rather than waiting for a year or more before being introduced to them.

i
what other treasures are unique to your wing chun system, or what things do you do in your lineage that you rarely see elsewhere -

----I incorporate use of the tactical folder as a more modern weapon, and as a way to give the empty-hand techniques more “flow.” Not all, but many of the San Sik translate to use of the tactical folder.

im sure there are many, many more. i’m interested about EVERY wc lineage and would like to hear about the authentic wing chun tools, as i know many branches have incorporated outside influences

—The outside influence I have incorporated is a “Mantis” flavor to what I do, and some of the structure and biomechanics I use reflect this.

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[QUOTE=LSWCTN1;869923]i was inspired by what i read about the ‘plum flower post jong’ from LoneTiger & HardWork8, and the questions regarding the kicking form from my own, Lee Shing, lineage[/QUOTE]

Nice to see another Family member here! Thanks for the comment :eek: you may be the ONLY one who feels inspired by my ramblings.

Personally, I was introduced to this method quite early on in training as I had a bad knee condition from too much football as a kid! The jong helped me to develop the strength back in my legs before I could really start anything else.

FWIW I have never seen any other people train the wooden man like we did at Jun Mo, even from within the Lee Family itself. It was used like a ‘cruise control’ of a car, maintaining a certain speed and flow. The noise was mad too and musical sometimes! It helped to build confidence as your arms and legs beacame wood themselves. All further training grew from this experience and I wouldn’t be who I am today without it imho.

Later, we used to jump up onto the top of the wooden man and practise a ‘single-leg’ SLT. For anyone who wants to feel ‘chi’ and why the lwr dantien is so important just jump up there! The swallowing Crane comes to mind :wink: and then the flying crane to leap off!!

I was a little more crazy in those days…

All politics aside, definately no Matis required! :smiley: Sorry KFM! I couldn’t help myself!

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[QUOTE=LSWCTN1;869923]what other treasures are unique to your wing chun system, or what things do you do in your lineage that you rarely see elsewhere[/QUOTE]

Nothing.

[indent]“Ving Tsun is nothing special. Now stop annoying me. Go do nothing special.”
– Moy Yat.[/indent]

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[QUOTE=Tom Kagan;869992]Nothing.

[indent]“Ving Tsun is nothing special. Now stop annoying me. Go do nothing special.”
– Moy Yat.[/indent][/QUOTE]Tom’s correct, IMO. There is nothing new under the sun.

Bill

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Flying armbars on the dummy.

We have form, dummy and chi sao variations that work out of a front stance rather than a parallel or side neutral stance. We have an SLT with footwork.

Outside influences are Hock Hochheim style knife and baton work, and Brazilan Jiu Jitsu. Or school is a Machado affiliate.

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[QUOTE=anerlich;870024]Flying armbars on the dummy.[/QUOTE] I stand corrected. :stuck_out_tongue:

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HFY has several forms I haven’t seen/heard of elsewhere. Wouldn’t call them ‘new’, but probably unique from what I can tell.

One is the Wing Chun Formula. This is a form broken up into 6 short sections. What this form teaches is proper structures & very specific reference points for positioning your weapons in front of you (trains HFY’s Sup Ming Dim, or 10 Bright Points). Along with the reference points, it also focuses on many key concepts concepts such as C.Line, 2-Line, 5-line, 4-gate, 6-gate, Heaven/Human/Earth, etc.

Another is the Bai Jong Baat Bo Jin which trains one how to engage an opponent 360 degrees around them. It trains 5 footworks, 4 hand methods and 8 directions.

There is also the Keun Jong Dip Gwat Gung for training bone, muscles and tendons, along with proper energy focus and use of ging.

Not sure if this is what you are looking for?

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JPinAZ

thats exactly the sort of thing i have been looking for, at what point during your learning do these things come into play? how are they done and what do they achieve?

this was the sort of thing i have been looking for!

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It’s going to be difficult to answer the ‘how it’s done’ questions without actual video to post, but I will try to give a little more insight into each of the forms.

How I see it, the Wing Chun Formula, can be taught either early on in one’s training, and/or as a supplement to their training as needed. It is a good way to check and refine a students structural and concept awareness as well as help the initially train and understand them. Most of the form (the first 5 mini-sections) are trained in YJKYM stance, the 6th has footwork and 2 basic kicks added.
Besides all of them training the Sup Ming Dim reference points for structure, the first trains CL concepts. The second trains the 2-line concept (inner and outer door/gates). The third trains the 3 height reference points for the hands on center (heaven/human/earth in 4-gate) and proper elbow position. The 4th teaches the 4 upper gates and the bounds of the ‘box’ where the hands can move furthest from center and up/down while still having equal reach. The 5th teaches about 5 width lines across the body for proper structure and hand/arm positioning (5-line theory). The 6th introduces the lower 2 gates, teaching 6-gate theory. This is where the feet are now opened and two kicks are introduce drawing the bounds of the lower 2 gates along with the hands demonstrating the upper 4 gates.

Bai Jong Baat Bo Jin is a form that teaches us how to move, face & engage our opponent from all angles. This form can initially be used as a warm up drill to get the body ready for training and also has it’s own modules for better understanding the concepts behind it.
When just looking at footwork, it teaches forward and backward stepping, how face 90 degrees to the left and right (the second actually becomes 180 degrees once you’ve turned to the left), how to move side-to-side while still facing and tracking your opponent when he moves, and also how to engage someone behind us.
The hand methods are biu jong, kiu jong, ton kiu and yat da wan yun. Bascially, how to occupy space, sweep your gates (clear space) or cycle through center using 2-line concept.

The third form I mentioned is a bit more involved and more difficult for me to explain, but it focuses on training elbow wrist and finger energies, bone grinding methods and tools for strengthening the skin, muscles, tendons and bones.
When I was taught this form, it was used prior to learning Tann/Bong/Fook Dui Ying chi sau, but I’ve found it to be a great form to run through in the morning. It really seems to get me charged up and ‘ready to go’! :slight_smile:

Ok, gotta run. It’s tough talking forms without visual aids, but hopefully this helped a little more. Feel free to ask any questions you might have!

Jonathan

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[QUOTE=anerlich;870024]Flying armbars on the dummy.

We have form, dummy and chi sao variations that work out of a front stance rather than a parallel or side neutral stance. We have an SLT with footwork.

Outside influences are Hock Hochheim style knife and baton work, and Brazilan Jiu Jitsu. Or school is a Machado affiliate.[/QUOTE]

ha flying armbar on the dummy thats kids stuff.. what about a flying omoplata on the dummy? try transitioning to twister side when the thing rolls out.. man does i hurt when you land on those arms..

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In Siu Lam Wing Chun we practice a great amount of chi kung. Towards the end of Chum Kiu ground fighting techniques, based on Wing Chun principles are introduced to the student.

Iron Palm practice includes hitting the sand bucket in a SHAOLIN horse stance,while special attention is paid to correct breathing during strikes.

Tiger Claw techniques applied within WC principles are also introduced to advanced students.

The chi sao practice includes Kum La chi sao and a very close(elbow) range chi sao where the emphasis is on the use of elbows.

In time all the different types of chi sao are combined and eventually evolve into full on sparring (San Sa).

These are just some possible differences from other lineages.

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Basement Boy is different alright. No question about that!

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[QUOTE=anerlich;870024]Flying armbars on the dummy.[/QUOTE]Wuss! We have the double leg in our dummy! First you gotta split its leg in two with a sidekick!

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[QUOTE=HardWork8;870394]In Siu Lam Wing Chun we practice a great amount of chi kung. Towards the end of Chum Kiu ground fighting techniques, based on Wing Chun principles are introduced to the student. …[/QUOTE]I think these chum kiu ground fighting techs would be fairly unique to your system too. Any footage?

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David-late on this thread

It will be tough to get a comptrehensive answer to your question by chatting on KFO. Victor did a good job explaining TWC in multiple posts on KFO quite some time back.I am sure the wing chun pedia essay is also good.

But wingchunpedia and websites are not likely to give you a good sample on wing chun. Lots of good people dont send in essays to those kinds of sites or books either.Some of the best people I know don’t bother with internet chats. Not a critique-just a fact.

I am likely to do wc quite differently from you. A good friend got started with Lee Shing and Joseph Cheng. I have seen Goh’s videos and that of another well or even better known person in the Lee Shing line (I forget his name at this moment). My friend also learned from Paul Lam of the Leung Shun line and the Lam
approach was differnt from the Lee Shing approach.

I do a wing chun version desceneded from Ip man via one of his best students-Ho Kam Ming-one of whose best students Augustine Fong is my sifu. Each person’s wing chun has some differences in flavor as they evolve.Some of my essays on my website at<www.tempewingchun.com> will perhapsgive you an idea on similarities and differences.

Among key differences-1. structure
2. stance-no sidebody
3. pole usage-holding and handling different from Goh’s

good wishes, joy chaudhuri

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[QUOTE=Mr Punch;870399]I think these chum kiu ground fighting techs would be fairly unique to your system too. Any footage?[/QUOTE]

I am afraid that as yet there is no footage. However, some Wing Chun ground fighting was demonstrated in a recent seminar here in London by my sifu, who was visiting from Brasil, and I believe that at least 2 members of this forum, from the Lee Shing lineage, were present at that event.

Perhaps they can add their take on the WC groundfighting and the seminar in general.

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[QUOTE=HardWork8;870484]… I believe that at least 2 members of this forum, from the Lee Shing lineage, were present at that event.

Perhaps they can add their take…[/QUOTE]

As I’ve mentioned before, what I saw was quite impressive. Having, or exploring, groundfighting as an element to your WCK is fine and these guys have a solid root in Shaolin so it really was just a reflection of that imo. How to take your concepts to the floor seems to work quite easily, especially if you have solid legwork, although we may never be as thorough as some who spend ALL their time on the floor.

I guess this really boils down to defining exactly what is and isn’t classified these days as Wing Chun.

I personally don’t like to put us all into a box, and I would say openly to people that if you do ‘develop’ your ground tactics be sure to remember the character of the snake! We covered plently of sitting and kneeling work at a very early stage, so I guess this may be something different too.

Previous teachers and practitioners may never had felt the ‘need’ to go to the floor but I guess these days are very different…

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Previous teachers and practitioners may never had felt the ‘need’ to go to the floor but I guess these days are very different…

You got that right.

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;870519]As I’ve mentioned before, what I saw was quite impressive. Having, or exploring, groundfighting as an element to your WCK is fine and these guys have a solid root in Shaolin so it really was just a reflection of that imo. How to take your concepts to the floor seems to work quite easily, especially if you have solid legwork, although we may never be as thorough as some who spend ALL their time on the floor.

I guess this really boils down to defining exactly what is and isn’t classified these days as Wing Chun.

I personally don’t like to put us all into a box, and I would say openly to people that if you do ‘develop’ your ground tactics be sure to remember the character of the snake! We covered plently of sitting and kneeling work at a very early stage, so I guess this may be something different too.

Previous teachers and practitioners may never had felt the ‘need’ to go to the floor but I guess these days are very different…[/QUOTE]

Speaking solely from the Siu Lam Wing Chun point of view, ground fighting has always been part of this lineage.

It is not a modern addition and uses the Wing Chun concepts and principles together with the required techniques (hand strikes, kicks and Chin- na) to subdue the adversary.

I do believe that those practicioners who believe that for whatever reason, they are more likely to face adversaries with a “ground game”, can go on to place more emphasis on the groundfighting aspects of Wing Chun. However, other aspects of this rich art have to be trained to a high level.

For example, what would be the point of tigerclawing an adversary’s throat on the ground if the claw does not have the power to do damage!

As far as being put in the box is concerned, it seems that unfortunately and more often than not, it is other Wing Chun practitioners who put us in a box and the minute they see something different, they start screaming at the top of their voices:confused:

I know that you and I both have been through this many times before.:slight_smile: