[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;870524]You got that right.[/QUOTE]
Thank you Sanjuro_ronin for your enlightened contribution. Your deep knowledge of kung fu never ceases to surprise and inspire us all.:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=Among key differences-1. structure
2. stance-no sidebody
3. pole usage-holding and handling different from Goh’s
[/QUOTE]
Hi Joy, thank you for the response - my lineage is also through Lee Shing/Joseph Cheng and i have noticed on another thread you mentioning the difference between Paul Lam and Joseph Cheng. Mr. Lam must have been one hell of a student!
i think that one person’s expression of wing chun may well be completely different from another’s, even within the same lineage. it is their own, personal, kung fu (props to hardwork8’s sifu for that-i like the saying a lot). however the question i was posing was along the lines of components of the systems, rather than how the system is expressed
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.Components - this is mostly what i was referring to. Ho Kam Ming is a true master and you must feel privileged to be a part of that lineage, as I am mine.
I know that the side (or slant) body we employ at times is a relatively rare way of doing things in the wing chun world,
Although i have never seen it, from the stories & history of TWC as i have read it, i would have thought that they employ slant body more so than some other Ip Man WC, as this was the ‘other’ side to Leung Jans wing chun
this thread is starting to pick up pace now - thanks for all the answers everybody. This is the sort of discussion i was hoping for!
“us all”?!
As opposed to the great wisdom gained from your whole three years of training?(in Brazil)?
STFU idiot.
[QUOTE=unkokusai;870560]As opposed to the great wisdom gained from your whole three years of training?(in Brazil)?
STFU idiot.[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
It would be great to see some of this supposed ‘ground fighting’ in some sort of context tested against folks actually trained in - you know - ground fighting, rather than against other WC students. That would be interesting.
Yeah, something like that.
[QUOTE=unkokusai;870572]Yeah, something like that.[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
David
I have no problem with the diversity in WC. Good luck with yours.
joy chaudhuri
There’s more of that “deep knowledge” from the world’s one and only Kungfu master!
[QUOTE=unkokusai;870593]There’s more of that “deep knowledge” from the world’s one and only Kungfu master![/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
Ah, the wisdom of Basement Boy!
I wonder if the retard will go away if I just ignore him.:rolleyes:
And yet more wisdom from the great Kungfu master!
[QUOTE=HardWork8;870616]I wonder if the retard will go away if I just ignore him.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
depends on which retard you are talking about.
:rolleyes:
When we compare WC to other ground fighting we are not usually making a fair comparison. In watching the MMA fights on TV I have seen them billed and introduced as Jujitsu, Mui Thai, kung fu, Karate, and just about every other form of fighting skill. Yet one of the fighters will usually spend most of the fight on his back, unable to escape. These guys are trained to this, and it seems that no system holds up. I keep watching and expecting the guy to do something that is some semblence of MA skill in making his escape, but it don’t ever happen. If he escapes it is in the form of some sort of squirming or something.
Back in the 60’s, Mui Thai was probably one of the most popular MA you could find. In Bangkok they held fights with absolutely no rules to fight by. I would venture to say that Mui Thai has probably killed more people than guns. The most brutal and fierce fighting you could imagine. Yet people trained in it are still spending the entire fight on their backs trying to escape. So why would WC be any different? Some systems will have stronger ground fighting techniques, but it will never be an easy thing if you are fighting against someone that is very large and strong and that has been trained to this sort of fighting. If you are involved in an altercation with someone that is not a ring fighter or trained MA fighter you will be able to escape most any attack where you are tossed to the ground. I have many, many ground fighting techniques that are fairly similar to Jap jujitsu, and they will get you out from under a large, strong man if you train them and apply them with conviction.
Yet one of the fighters will usually spend most of the fight on his back, unable to escape.
Counterexamples:
Allen Goes vs Kazushi Sakuraba (one of the earlier Prides)
Renzo Gracie vs Oleg Taktarov (going back a long way, but still)
Antonio Inoki vs Muhammad Ali (laugh, but Inoki didn’t get hit and you can bet Ali’s legs were bruised as all hell).
A guy in my MMA class who won his last MMA fight by triangle choke, along with a cast of thousands who have done the same (or used armbars, armbar triangles, guillotine chokes, got the back and choked them out, etc etc) all over the world over more than a decade (if you count Vale Tudo, several decades).
TWC has had groundfighting in it for a long time. So have other styles of KF (and WC, no doubt). I had my first groundfighting lesson from a KF teacher in 1977. A lot of it was not dissimilar to (some of) what Goes did in the aforementioned match above.
I don’t care if you’re jujitsu comers form Japan, Brazil, or Mars. If a good ground and pound guy gets mount or side control on you, you are in deep trouble and will need lots of luck to escape. Most of the skilful fighting on the bottom is done from the guard, which is what TWC does as well, though it is a very rudimentary guard and it’s not called that anyway.
But the aims of TWC ground fighting is to keep the guy away so you can get back up, or hurt him if he gets close and does something stupid like putting his head or shin inside kicking range. The aims of BJJ and MMA are very different.
I would venture to say that Mui Thai has probably killed more people than guns.
I doubt that MT has killed more people than guns did in various world wars and more recent regional conflicts.
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;870640]When we compare WC to other ground fighting we are not usually making a fair comparison. In watching the MMA fights on TV I have seen them billed and introduced as Jujitsu, Mui Thai, kung fu, Karate, and just about every other form of fighting skill. Yet one of the fighters will usually spend most of the fight on his back, unable to escape. These guys are trained to this, and it seems that no system holds up. I keep watching and expecting the guy to do something that is some semblence of MA skill in making his escape, but it don’t ever happen. If he escapes it is in the form of some sort of squirming or something.[/quote]1) You don’t know what you’re looking at.
2) These people are both trained so that should the fight go to ground, they can finish it there if necessary. While some obviously look for these positions, the main reason these people appear to be doing nothing is because they have a good idea what will get them submitted. It’s like chess: they wait, they seemingly do nothing, and when they do you don’t know the point… then they win. If a skilled chess-player plays someone who doesn’t know much chess, the match will be a lot quicker and more decisive and you’ll be able to see his skill level in say the five moves it takes for him to get checkmate. In the same way, if you put someone with no ground experience against a top-flight jujutsuka, they’ll be done in a flash (time and movement!).
BTW, in case you missed the last 15 years this has been proven again and again by the number of people who’ve challenged Gracies and many other top grapplers and lost (inc blackbelts from countless other arts), the number of matches of highly trained fighters in the UFC, Pride, Shooto and other promotions which have a higher proportion of submission wins than stand-up and the huge number of top artists in many stand-up arts who advocate doing some kind of groundfighting style to supplement their main arts. You are in a minority of people who refuse to see this.
- ‘Some sort of squirming…’ LOL… do you mean shrimping? Do you mean one of the countless sweep variations? Do you mean bridging? This proves you don’t know what you’re looking at: there’s the martial skill right there… if you don’t agree, YOU go and lie under a BJJ blackbelt/wrestler and see if you can get out with or without squirming… :rolleyes:
… I would venture to say that Mui Thai has probably killed more people than guns.
I would venture you’re talking out your arse there.
Some systems will have stronger ground fighting techniques…
Wing chun is not one of them.
If you are involved in an altercation with someone that is not a ring fighter or trained MA fighter you will be able to escape most any attack where you are tossed to the ground.
Really? I’d bet your average gym rat with a drunken bum tackle, any rugby player and half of the plain nasty b astards I’ve met against any of the chunners I’ve met, on the ground. Part of the reason being chunners’ enormous egos as demonstrated by 90 of your posts (and mine) and partly because wing chun’s groundfighting, throws and takedowns, from what I’ve seen has been crap. And I’ve seen a lot of wing chun lines. Now, if you, or HW8 have the real wing chun groundfighting, I’d love to see some of it against a non-chunner in a non-compliant situation. I’m not saying it isn’t possible, I’m just saying it’s not likely to be much use.
Can’t believe the chun ‘community’ are still going round in these circles… Nah… I can.
…Jap jujitsu…
I find it hard to believe you don’t know that this is an offensive expression… which makes you a pr!ck.
[QUOTE=Mr Punch;870647]1) You don’t know what you’re looking at.
2) These people are both trained so that should the fight go to ground, they can finish it there if necessary. While some obviously look for these positions, the main reason these people appear to be doing nothing is because they have a good idea what will get them submitted. It’s like chess: they wait, they seemingly do nothing, and when they do you don’t know the point… then they win. If a skilled chess-player plays someone who doesn’t know much chess, the match will be a lot quicker and more decisive and you’ll be able to see his skill level in say the five moves it takes for him to get checkmate. In the same way, if you put someone with no ground experience against a top-flight jujutsuka, they’ll be done in a flash (time and movement!).
BTW, in case you missed the last 15 years this has been proven again and again by the number of people who’ve challenged Gracies and many other top grapplers and lost (inc blackbelts from countless other arts), the number of matches of highly trained fighters in the UFC, Pride, Shooto and other promotions which have a higher proportion of submission wins than stand-up and the huge number of top artists in many stand-up arts who advocate doing some kind of groundfighting style to supplement their main arts. You are in a minority of people who refuse to see this.
- ‘Some sort of squirming…’ LOL… do you mean shrimping? Do you mean one of the countless sweep variations? Do you mean bridging? This proves you don’t know what you’re looking at: there’s the martial skill right there… if you don’t agree, YOU go and lie under a BJJ blackbelt/wrestler and see if you can get out with or without squirming… :rolleyes:
I would venture you’re talking out your arse there.
Wing chun is not one of them.
Really? I’d bet your average gym rat with a drunken bum tackle, any rugby player and half of the plain nasty b astards I’ve met against any of the chunners I’ve met, on the ground. Part of the reason being chunners’ enormous egos as demonstrated by 90% of your posts (and mine ) and partly because wing chun’s groundfighting, throws and takedowns, from what I’ve seen has been crap. And I’ve seen a lot of wing chun lines. Now, if you, or HW8 have the real wing chun groundfighting, I’d love to see some of it against a non-chunner in a non-compliant situation. I’m not saying it isn’t possible, I’m just saying it’s not likely to be much use.
Can’t believe the chun ‘community’ are still going round in these circles… Nah… I can.
I find it hard to believe you don’t know that this is an offensive expression… which makes you a pr!ck.[/QUOTE]
That was an excellent post right there!
not necessarily sticking up for anyone here - but Wang Kui only had 2.5 years with Ip Man by his own admission - and he was/is **** good!
his sifu when i met him was a well above average wc man and very welcoming. Fung Sui Ching lineage if i remember correctly? his students i met (although hardwork8 wasnt there) seemed to have a good grasp of wc and could use it - not alway that common
there is also Moy Yat and HFY lineage in brazil - its not exactly weak WC is it?