In short over 90% of schools in china and taiwan
belong to some kind of association or committee
there are some universal programs, too.
[QUOTE=SPJ;1017867]do not know much about north america.
in china and taiwan
there are very good organizations for each style
kuo shu clubs in high schools and colleges
there are also departments of cma in colleges and master degree researches, too
each style also formed committee’s regionally and nationally.
such as beijing ba gua zhang research committee
and also there are greater number of civilian associations
—[/QUOTE]
North America is a martial arts wasteland with a few rare oasis.
People, misunderstand it, fear it or practice it with ill intent.
There is hope in some places;)
[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1017809]I’ve been fortunate, I suppose. A lot of people in my line were previously what I came to look at as taixuquan structuralists, meaning that there were general motions that were applied in a variety of ways, not necessarily the way they occurred in the form.
I did a lot of homework, and found that, nine times out of ten, the way a technique is in the form is directly how it seems to best apply live. In short, this arm motion occurs with this lead leg every time in the form for a reason. There is virtually nothing hidden in the form, and I question how much claiming a technique is hidden in a form is an admission of not understanding that technique.
If there’s a version of my form or applications online, you can bet I’ve studied it closely. If there’s a similar move in another style, like a similar throw in judo, you can bet I’ve studied that, but my application has the details my style favors for the reason it favors those details.
Contact will make it all self evident.
At this point, my teacher picks up applications from me on this specific style(taixuquan). These are all tested often in live situations, and improve over time, but the good ones are the only usable ones, ime.
As for additions, it’s your form. People I know in China, with good credentials, see no problem with making it your own thing, as long as you know its uses and make no crazy claims.
To clarify, I’m not saying these things as something you have no clue of. When I read your posts, or Pork Chops, or Lucas, I tend to see people in the same boat I am, recently was, or will be shortly, fairly typical serious practitioners of our era. Each responds to their training issues with their own nuances: some cross train more or less, I went for encyclopedic knowledge of a system as my core, this not being an encyclopedia of whatever every teacher thinks each technique is, though I am fairly well aware of that, but what evidence suggests each technique actually is, informing that with a strong previous background in other arts and referencing high quality manuals of related material to compare. The real gorilla is that, without someone doing that for many styles, they will be lost.[/QUOTE]
I would tend to agree with this “There is virtually nothing hidden in the form” I think most people misunderstand what is meant when they hear “There are hidden techniques in the forms” I think most people try too hard to make their techniques work exactly like they look within the form. The form is a guide it shows a single method of performing a technique in a fluid motion. There are many other ways of achieving this same technique there are many other ways to link a single technique. Then take into account that technique with just a simple flick of the wrist, arm, hand etc.. could be used in an entirely different manner. This is where I think the term “Hidden techniques” comes into play.
I think the problem is we tend to focus so much on the single method within the form that we miss all the other methods of how this technique can be achieved. I think we forget just a bend of the arm or turn of the wrist is another method of using this same technique. I think the problem is that schools cater too much to students and much is lost in this. Instructors don’t want to push students too hard for fear of losing them. I also think many instructors have missed the boat themselves and don’t understand that a technique in a form is just one single method of using that technique. As my sifu is always stressing to us think, think, think! Don’t just look at a technique don’t just mimic a technique know where, when, and why you use a technique. I think there is still too much blind sifu worship and following I haven’t seen a shift like you speak of I hope it is indeed the case but, I have yet to see a difference.
Ok, Lets be honest,
How often do you guys get into fights? Of those fights how many are life threatening?
You are probably several thousand times more likely to die in a car accident than in a street fight, maybe 10s of thousands. So instead of practicing your ‘combat’ for the 2 hours you do once a week why don’t you spend the time learning to drive better, or learning to cross the road.
A lot of you talk about stuff being ‘useful’ when the truth is most of you will never ever ‘use’ it. My point is most people don’t give a toss about fighting. There is a lot more to learning Wushu than combat, and Gong Fu actually has nothing to do with combat, at all. So why do you all have to make such a big thing of combat? Why do you think dancers spend so long perfecting a dance move, gymnasts spend so long perfecting a flip, runners spend so long shaving a fraction of a second off a hundred metre sprint, artists pefect the skill of painting, calligeraphers perfect the form of writing, why?
‘FROM THE PERPETUAL PURSUIT OF THE HIGHEST SPRINGS A SERIES OF REALISATIONS, EACH OF WHICH GIVES US THE JOY AND PRIDE OF CONQUEST’ From the mind of Yoritomo.
This is what it means to perfect a skill, and we all do it in some way. TCMA captures this spirit more than any of the mixed martial arts. Of course MMA becomes a better platform for practicing combat, but there is so much more to TCMA than just combat. This is why small TCMA will never die. Because a lot of people understand them on more levels than just combat.
I mean, don’t get me wrong. I love sparring. I enjoy controlled combat. But its not my endgame, its not my reason for training kung fu, and I know a lot of people who aren’t interested at all but still love kung fu. And its not just the hippies. Its normal people. I don’t think kung fu has to be so progressive, I think there will always be a place for these ancient traditions.
@KC Elbows On a side, As to above about Techniques hidden in form, there is a great deal, but it depends on your style. Southern forms tend to be literal and there is less hidden, but northern forms tend to be abstract and if you don’t understand how form is constructed in the northern styles then the vast majority of the techniqe is hidden, you can give me an example of a northern stance and i’ll explain gladly.
[QUOTE=Lokhopkuen;1017856]If you practice gung fu without study and experimentation of the application it’s just dance with fa-jing. The spirit of Gung Fu practice dictates that we seek the higher standard. Stretch out as far as possible, step strong right and left, stand as low as possible, strike from the heart with passion and reckless abandon, always seek the advantage, be compassionate when you can, practice viciousness when you attack.[/QUOTE]
I love it when you talk dirty.
[QUOTE=Lokhopkuen;1017851]30 years ago in our gung fu school we practiced drills, ran forms, sparred no pads, wrestled on concret and asphalt, busted lips, sprained joints boiled jow. 20 years ago in our gung fu school we practiced drills, ran forms, sparred no pads, wrestled on concret and asphalt, busted lips, sprained joints boiled jow. 10 years ago in our gung fu school we practiced drills, ran forms, sparred no pads, wrestled on concret and asphalt, busted lips, sprained joints boiled jow. All this week in our gung fu school we practiced drills, ran forms, sparred no pads, wrestled on concret and asphalt, busted lips, sprained joints boiled jow.
I’m sorry, you were saying?
LMAO![/QUOTE]
Is this the same method you will use with your kids nonprofit schools in KC?
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1017747]I know, but most like the hard contact training though.
And you’re one sick puppy ![/QUOTE]
I would disagree. That is the lure of BJJ. People don’t mind the cardio aspects of it and tussling around. What people don’t like is getting hit. There are tons of people who spend years LARPing in whatever martial art you can think of who are all of a sudden born again hardcore as soon as they found a martial art that they could avoid being hit in.
just being a little facetious, but “monkey based” sounds funny.
Guys, I said hard contact TRAINING not sparring, pay attention.
Hard contact training is pad work, bag work, mitt work, etc.
I can include sparring but doesn’t have too.
Even people that do boxercise and kickboxercise say that the fun part is the bag and mitt work because they get to hit something.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1017974]Guys, I said hard contact TRAINING not sparring, pay attention.
Hard contact training is pad work, bag work, mitt work, etc.
I can include sparring but doesn’t have too.
Even people that do boxercise and kickboxercise say that the fun part is the bag and mitt work because they get to hit something.[/QUOTE]
fire and return drills are great too! it’s like a heavy bag that moves around and only presents itself to once in a while forcing your reaction time to come into play as well.
I find that if you just hold the pads up, that’s not as effective as fire&return type drilling with them. Yeah it’s ok for combos and mobility pairing to do hold the pads up and move. But if you wanna get real productive with these things, you gotta mix it up, stretch your head and “steal” a lot of information from other people in how to train in this way. lol
Full contact sparring is woefully misunderstood by many enthusiasts who in my experiences consistently and constantly turn a learning environment into their ego driven competition environment. It’s stupid really quite often and I see that there is much fail there still taht needs to be dealt with.
You MUST recycle your training partners. If you injure them, that is less training for you. young dumb and full of cum doesn’t cut it in a good training regimen. That’s playground.
just sayin…
edit as an aside, it is not easy to find someone who can train with you that knows how to train you and you them. Holding mitts takes clarity, concentration, consideration and some skill in order to have efficacy.
I have experienced guys who can’t hold the mitts proper, don’t drill me proper with them, provide no challenge and so on. I also have met guys who don’t know what to do with hitting on mitts or pads in mobile situations.
It’s not as simple as just doing it, it is definitely helpful to have a partner that knows at least at an intermediate level what they are doing and how they are helping and what to watch for in you etc etc.
[QUOTE=Lokhopkuen;1017851]30 years ago in our gung fu school we practiced drills, ran forms, sparred no pads, wrestled on concret and asphalt, busted lips, sprained joints boiled jow. 20 years ago in our gung fu school we practiced drills, ran forms, sparred no pads, wrestled on concret and asphalt, busted lips, sprained joints boiled jow. 10 years ago in our gung fu school we practiced drills, ran forms, sparred no pads, wrestled on concret and asphalt, busted lips, sprained joints boiled jow. All this week in our gung fu school we practiced drills, ran forms, sparred no pads, wrestled on concret and asphalt, busted lips, sprained joints boiled jow.
I’m sorry, you were saying?
LMAO![/QUOTE]
This is the problem of speaking in generalities. It is not my premise that no schools trained hard, but that the overall culture had certain problems. Having been in a number of schools in China, I know the problems exist there, too, and that there are schools that don’t fall into such traps.
I would, however, say that some gear allows more realism in sparring than none, but that’s another discussion. I’ve trained the way you are speaking of as well, but twenty years ago, or ten, the majority of kung fu schools did not train as such. This is not said in judgement of them, but with regret, as I enjoy the diversity of ma styles out there, and would enjoy seeing more people who trained them comprehensively.
[QUOTE=jmd161;1017896]I think there is still too much blind sifu worship and following I haven’t seen a shift like you speak of I hope it is indeed the case but, I have yet to see a difference.[/QUOTE]
My statement mostly relates to people who already have the system, people on the cusp of becoming sifus and fairly recent sifus. All ma schools have hero worship among the lower ranks.
The system that supported the old way is dead. Forms champions don’t have the same reputation they once had, and people coming up are more aware of the competition out there for students. The smart ones know that lacking the ability to apply will be a problem for them, and they don’t want to pass that problem on to their students.
This forum is a good place to get the pulse of the community. People are often away from their sifus and speaking openly, with various levels of being informed, on a number of topics. I think you can name more practitioners on here that fit my description than you might at first realize.
Unless you spend time arguing with Hardwork. Then, it’s masons and 9-11.
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1017967]I would disagree. That is the lure of BJJ. People don’t mind the cardio aspects of it and tussling around. What people don’t like is getting hit. There are tons of people who spend years LARPing in whatever martial art you can think of who are all of a sudden born again hardcore as soon as they found a martial art that they could avoid being hit in.[/QUOTE]
There is some truth to this… but my money’s on the practitioner who’s in a style where they don’t get hit and practice full-out like Judo, Sambo, BJJ, and Shuai Jiaou.
[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1017953]Is this the same method you will use with your kids nonprofit schools in KC?[/QUOTE]
Haven’t even found the building yet in KC, but that is how we do it at my teacher’s place, that is how I work with some of my students, the ones that want to learn how to apply it.
Now while I’m off practicing and teaching why don’t you just move along and post another link to some lame shock video perhaps a yet undiscovered tasteless photo depicting minority children:rolleyes:
[QUOTE=MightyB;1018023]There is some truth to this… but my money’s on the practitioner who’s in a style where they don’t get hit and practice full-out like Judo, Sambo, BJJ, and Shuai Jiaou.[/QUOTE]
A whiney no chin larper is a whiney no chin larper.
[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1017952]I love it when you talk dirty.
:D[/QUOTE]
Not in public, I told you, stop:o
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1018190]A whiney no chin larper is a whiney no chin larper.[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7KxuDYfpSQ
or
Which one do you think is preparing actual fighters?
[QUOTE=HumbleWCGuy;1018190]A whiney no chin larper is a whiney no chin larper.[/QUOTE]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0Cr2FmXEpQ
Doubt that this qualifies as LARPing.