90% of kung fu schools...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
1

This gets thrown around a lot, that they are this that and the other.

The last thread I was in on this topic ended with the fact that 90% of the kung fu people on the thread did not fit the 90% that they were described as.

I think the mma craze has been the best thing to happen to kung fu in ages. Most instructors of my generation don’t fit the stereotype. Most, because they are reforming their lines, are becoming more progressive than other styles, are more familiar with other systems of fighting, and more open to training with other stylists. This takes time. Some say ‘karate already has had mma champs, why not kung fu?’ The simple fact is, many more people do karate, and, once you realize that there is no style ‘kung fu’, and you divide the Chinese styles into their categories, you have lots of small groups with previous cultures that hampered growth.

One need only talk with a few of the right people on this board to see this is not true of current practitioners in most relevant cases. And, of course, there were lines before mma that had the right idea.

90% of any field are not relevant to the cutting edge of that field, but I suspect that a strong percentage of serious kung fu practitioners in the west now will end up being at that cutting edge or risk their arts dying.

2

who is best at killing their art but the artist? :slight_smile:

3

MMA is Kung fu, is there any system of Kung fu that was not mixed with another?
Doubtful ( outside of stories).
I think the majority of kung fu schools do NOT participate in full contact sparring, much less competition, but that is also correct for the majority of Karate schools too.
Why?
Because the majority of people DON’T want that.
If they did they would get into MT or Boxing or MMA.

Now, some schools do and more seem to be getting into sparring at least and this is good.
But there is still too much catering to “hippies” or “closed-door secret kung fu”.

We should take a lesson from the book of Jing-Wu or at least from the book of the creators/innovatiors of the very systems we nutride and get out and make a name for ourselves and BE OUR OWN KUNG FU !!!

villagers go wild and women rip off their clothes

4

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1017742]I think the majority of kung fu schools do NOT participate in full contact sparring, much less competition, but that is also correct for the majority of Karate schools too.
Why?
Because the majority of people DON’T want that.
If they did they would get into MT or Boxing or MMA.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, the majority of people in MMA don’t want to compete, either. That’s why you have to have a separate class for the fighters in most schools.

6

[QUOTE=MasterKiller;1017744]Honestly, the majority of people in MMA don’t want to compete, either. That’s why you have to have a separate class for the fighters in most schools.[/QUOTE]

I know, but most like the hard contact training though.
And you’re one sick puppy !

7

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1017742]
But there is still too much catering to “hippies” or “closed-door secret kung fu”.
[/QUOTE]

I only see this happening much in the schools of teachers from the previous generation. I don’t know of a single guy my age who runs or has any intention to run this sort of class. And the ‘closed door’ schools are killing themselves, they’re completely irrelevant, imo.

8

[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1017753]I only see this happening much in the schools of teachers from the previous generation. I don’t know of a single guy my age who runs or has any intention to run this sort of class. And the ‘closed door’ schools are killing themselves, they’re completely irrelevant, imo.[/QUOTE]

So what do you see now?
And I agree about those closed door schools, they are irrelevant and so out of touch with he reality of combat nowadays that I feel for their students.

9

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1017757]So what do you see now?
[/QUOTE]

A lot of young instructors trying to implement more live training. Some don’t have the grasp yet of exactly what their system is, from the past of promoting instructors based on forms proficiency and apps proficiency over more live practices, but they do what they can.

Some are highly systematic about it.

Most are way more open to crossing hands with others and cross training than the previous generation on average.

Most seem to be reviving the concept of ‘kung fu club’, a non-school meeting that allows for testing of skills against varied people and skillsets.

Many are very familiar with modern training paradigms.

The main gap is now in what exactly makes up their style, but live testing over enough time will clear up most confusion, imo.

Of course you still have your wingnuts, but most schools like that are not doing that well. The smaller kung fu competition out here dried up, which took away a lot from the dreamer schools, and the pressure of being able to apply things live has hit from a more educated consumer base visiting the schools.

Things just aren’t the same, and they won’t be the same. Any argument built on what most kung fu schools were fifteen years ago is becoming irrelevant.

Me, I’m traditional viking kung fu. Know your kung fu, steal the kung fu of others, kill their teachers, and raise their children as your own. It takes a village.

10

Me, I’m traditional viking kung fu. Know your kung fu, steal the kung fu of others, kill their teachers, and raise their children as your own. It takes a village.

I love it when you talk like a Khan !!
I am glad to see that more kung fu people are understanding that without live sparring, hard and even full contact fighting, that there will always be a missing piece in theie kung fu puzzle.

11

[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1017765]
The main gap is now in what exactly makes up their style, but live testing over enough time will clear up most confusion, imo.
[/QUOTE]

This is the Gorilla in the center of the room… what now? What is it? What do you call it when what you’re doing now is so vastly different than what you did? How about if you still want it to be “kung fu” but most outsiders say you’re doing MMA? How do you keep it “kung fu”? This is the cause of my kung fu neurosis.

12

its kungfu cuz i say it is d@mn it.

serious tho, ive started cross training but i still look at what i do as kungfu, because thats what it is to me. im just adding to my current foundation of skill. taking what i learn, working it so it makes sense to me, and finding a place for it with what i already know.

i could never pick up a nother chinese style my entire life, but ill still be doing kungfu till i die.

13

[QUOTE=MightyB;1017794]This is the Gorilla in the center of the room… what now? What is it? What do you call it when what you’re doing now is so vastly different than what you did? How about if you still want it to be “kung fu” but most outsiders say you’re doing MMA? How do you keep it “kung fu”? This is the cause of my kung fu neurosis.[/QUOTE]

I’ve been fortunate, I suppose. A lot of people in my line were previously what I came to look at as taixuquan structuralists, meaning that there were general motions that were applied in a variety of ways, not necessarily the way they occurred in the form.

I did a lot of homework, and found that, nine times out of ten, the way a technique is in the form is directly how it seems to best apply live. In short, this arm motion occurs with this lead leg every time in the form for a reason. There is virtually nothing hidden in the form, and I question how much claiming a technique is hidden in a form is an admission of not understanding that technique.

If there’s a version of my form or applications online, you can bet I’ve studied it closely. If there’s a similar move in another style, like a similar throw in judo, you can bet I’ve studied that, but my application has the details my style favors for the reason it favors those details.

Contact will make it all self evident.

At this point, my teacher picks up applications from me on this specific style(taixuquan). These are all tested often in live situations, and improve over time, but the good ones are the only usable ones, ime.

As for additions, it’s your form. People I know in China, with good credentials, see no problem with making it your own thing, as long as you know its uses and make no crazy claims.

To clarify, I’m not saying these things as something you have no clue of. When I read your posts, or Pork Chops, or Lucas, I tend to see people in the same boat I am, recently was, or will be shortly, fairly typical serious practitioners of our era. Each responds to their training issues with their own nuances: some cross train more or less, I went for encyclopedic knowledge of a system as my core, this not being an encyclopedia of whatever every teacher thinks each technique is, though I am fairly well aware of that, but what evidence suggests each technique actually is, informing that with a strong previous background in other arts and referencing high quality manuals of related material to compare. The real gorilla is that, without someone doing that for many styles, they will be lost.

14

[QUOTE=MightyB;1017794]What do you call it when what you’re doing now is so vastly different than what you did? [/QUOTE]

IMO, the previous generation’s culture prevented good knowledge of the style in its actual use, so worrying about what you did is less relevant than asking if your understanding of it is deeper than what you were handed, and more comprehensive, and knowing how many moves are still relative unknown quantities. Knowing the bread and butter of the style from live practice will yield better understanding than apps training, which could involve usage errors that apps practice is not well designed to root out.

15

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1017747]I know, but most like the hard contact training though.
And you’re one sick puppy ![/QUOTE]

i dunno about that while i was at my mma gym most of the “regular” folks didnt spar or once they did the first time the didnt want to again lol

the hard contanct was for the fighters or people who wanted to get into it

16

[QUOTE=KC Elbows;1017737]This gets thrown around a lot, that they are this that and the other.

The last thread I was in on this topic ended with the fact that 90% of the kung fu people on the thread did not fit the 90% that they were described as.

I think the mma craze has been the best thing to happen to kung fu in ages. Most instructors of my generation don’t fit the stereotype. Most, because they are reforming their lines, are becoming more progressive than other styles, are more familiar with other systems of fighting, and more open to training with other stylists. This takes time. Some say ‘karate already has had mma champs, why not kung fu?’ The simple fact is, many more people do karate, and, once you realize that there is no style ‘kung fu’, and you divide the Chinese styles into their categories, you have lots of small groups with previous cultures that hampered growth.

One need only talk with a few of the right people on this board to see this is not true of current practitioners in most relevant cases. And, of course, there were lines before mma that had the right idea.

90% of any field are not relevant to the cutting edge of that field, but I suspect that a strong percentage of serious kung fu practitioners in the west now will end up being at that cutting edge or risk their arts dying.[/QUOTE]

30 years ago in our gung fu school we practiced drills, ran forms, sparred no pads, wrestled on concret and asphalt, busted lips, sprained joints boiled jow. 20 years ago in our gung fu school we practiced drills, ran forms, sparred no pads, wrestled on concret and asphalt, busted lips, sprained joints boiled jow. 10 years ago in our gung fu school we practiced drills, ran forms, sparred no pads, wrestled on concret and asphalt, busted lips, sprained joints boiled jow. All this week in our gung fu school we practiced drills, ran forms, sparred no pads, wrestled on concret and asphalt, busted lips, sprained joints boiled jow.

I’m sorry, you were saying?

LMAO!

17

[QUOTE=goju;1017825]i dunno about that while i was at my mma gym most of the “regular” folks didnt spar or once they did the first time the didnt want to again lol

the hard contanct was for the fighters or people who wanted to get into it[/QUOTE]

You do know:cool:

18

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1017767]I love it when you talk like a Khan !!
I am glad to see that more kung fu people are understanding that without live sparring, hard and even full contact fighting, that there will always be a missing piece in theie kung fu puzzle.[/QUOTE]

If you practice gung fu without study and experimentation of the application it’s just dance with fa-jing. The spirit of Gung Fu practice dictates that we seek the higher standard. Stretch out as far as possible, step strong right and left, stand as low as possible, strike from the heart with passion and reckless abandon, always seek the advantage, be compassionate when you can, practice viciousness when you attack.

19

in order for the school to survive in the 21st century

  1. wushu forms

  2. weapon forms

  3. push hand, light contact comp

  4. full contact comp

  5. research

  6. health for senior

–

unfortunately, a school has to cater to all categories of would be students

some like to do it to enter form comp, push hand comp, san shou comp, lei tai comp–

some like to do it if for fun and health

some like to do it as researches in principles, theories, methods–

–

the school that has most students may exert more influence in the circle/communities

20

do not know much about north america.

in china and taiwan

there are very good organizations for each style

kuo shu clubs in high schools and colleges

there are also departments of cma in colleges and master degree researches, too

each style also formed committee’s regionally and nationally.

such as beijing ba gua zhang research committee

and also there are greater number of civilian associations