8-step forms

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Northern Praying Mantis
41

I am the short Chinese guy (Kin, but my master always call me Kim) that was mentioned in this thread. I am only responding to the information that was misleading about me and my relationship to my master Shyun. Mike’s information about me is partial and closest to being correct.

From time to time I surfed on the Internet regarding 8 Step information just to keep up with what’s going on with the system because I still have a personal passion for the Mantis style.

I am of Chinese descent born in Hong Kong (impossible for me to be a spy since I am not from Taiwan) and came to the US when I was very young. I speak fluent English and broken Chinese (Cantonese). The only small amount of Mandarin Chinese that I learned is when I studied under my master Shyun in SF.

Before 8 Step, I studied 7 Star in NYC under Stanley Moy and Cheung Wah who learned from Master Chiu Leung. Also I knew Stephen Laurette who is my 7 Star sifus’ kung fu brother and Tony Puyot’s sifu. Tony is Mike’s sifu. I met Tony in SF during my studies.

Here is my condensed 8 Step timeline. Back in the fall of 1986 I came to SF for 3 weeks to train with my master Shyun. What sparked my interest in 8 Step is the fact that 8 Step has an advanced ground fighting form according to master Shyun’s first Inside Kung Fu article. Before I came to SF, I called my master at the school and convinced him to give me private lessons because of my short stature.

It was my first time being in SF, so during the day time I was sightseeing SF for the first week and trained in the evening. The next two weeks I spend most of the time training. Afterward, I returned back to NYC and continued with my 7 Star training.

Then around September of 1987 I was again in SF for more training of 8 Step. At that time master James Shyun was invited to Taiwan in December for the Tai Chi tournament. So he was teaching Tai Chi to me and some of the students that were going to Taiwan to participate in the tournament. While in Taiwan, we had the privilege of visiting and paying respect to Grand Master Wei’s grave site. I returned to NYC after the trip to Taiwan.

I moved out to SF in the summer of 1988 hoping to study 8 Step full time. But some times it does not work out the way you want it to. I was having a hard time looking for work to sustain my living expense in SF to continue my 8 Step studies. My master’s brother in-law was very helpful and got me a job working with the company that he works for (7pm-3am (S-Th)). Because of my work schedule I could not participate in the regular class schedule. This is why my Master taught me privately.

Before Dean moved back to Buffalo, my master videotaped me performing the 8 Step forms and his other Tai Chi student the Tai Chi forms. This is for the Dean to reference to for both systems.

My master did teach me a lot of 8 Step because I helped him out doing some minor work with some of his business ventures outside of martial arts. He has not charged me tuition since I moved to SF (No, I did not do his laundry and house work).

Also my master never kicked me out of his house or school. I still have a master/student relationship with him to this day. He has been good to me and I always had the highest respect for him. I moved back to NYC in late fall 1992 while he was away in Taiwan doing business.

Around 1995/1996 (I’m don’t remember the exact date) when he came to NJ to do a seminar, I took him and his student Jack Skutnik to dinner in NYC Chinatown.

My master’s family (wife, son Anthony, daughter Anita, brother and brother in-law) can verify my relationship to my Master and his family. I still keep in touch with his son Anthony via email.

Currently I am not active in martial arts and have no present/future intention of any involvement with 8 Step/7 Star. My present career is in the computer technology field.

There is no secrecy surrounding my relationship with Master Shyun. I am just like all of you that were/are learning 8 Step because it is a great and effective martial art system.

I have left out details which I felt it was unnecessary in this post, but enough for you all to know who I am.

My wish/prayer for all of you is to continue to focus on studying and mastering the martial arts (physical and philosophical) and to keep it alive for future generations.

With great respect to all I end here.
:slight_smile:

42

You can’t end without talking about the advanced ground form???

Thanks
Jake :slight_smile:

43

Ex8 steper/KIN
Do you remember me? my name is Mike Haley and I was origianlly Dean Economos’s student from Buffalo but then moved to SF and trained directly under Shyun.
I have a video of you in the Irving St school with the blue carpets (long time ago) Do you remeber Robert the photographer? Well anyways it is of you performing all 10 sets in 8 step.

You had street clothes on and you wore glasses. I heard a story about you from Shyun about him finding a letter written by you to your other shrfu in NYC that made Shyun feel you had double crossed him. now I am sure that story has been embellished, however Shyun said after that he would never teach anyone all 10 sets ever again only still only teaches the first 5… would you please at the very least give us 8 steppers the names of 6-10? thanks in advance

44

Response Again

Apparently somebody deleted my post yesterday because they did not want other to read my story. I write as being genuine and sincere in my account. Because of my technical background, I have saved a copy and has repost it again. If it get delete it again I will post it as a separate thread or to another martial art website. I want people to know me and not the misrespentation in this thread.

Thanks.

I am the short Chinese guy (Kin, but my master always call me Kim) that was mentioned in this thread. I am only responding to the information that was misleading about me and my relationship to my master Shyun. Mike’s information about me is partial and closest to being correct.

From time to time I surfed on the Internet regarding 8 Step information just to keep up with what’s going on with the system because I still have a personal passion for the Mantis style.

I am of Chinese descent born in Hong Kong (impossible for me to be a spy since I am not from Taiwan) and came to the US when I was very young. I speak fluent English and broken Chinese (Cantonese). The only small amount of Mandarin Chinese that I learned is when I studied under my master Shyun in SF.

Before 8 Step, I studied 7 Star in NYC under Stanley Moy and Cheung Wah who learned from Master Chiu Leung. Also I knew Stephen Laurette who is my 7 Star sifus’ kung fu brother and Tony Puyot’s sifu. Tony is Mike’s sifu. I met Tony in SF during my studies.

Here is my condensed 8 Step timeline. Back in the fall of 1986 I came to SF for 3 weeks to train with my master Shyun. What sparked my interest in 8 Step is the fact that 8 Step has an advanced ground fighting form according to master Shyun’s first Inside Kung Fu article. Before I came to SF, I called my master at the school and convinced him to give me private lessons because of my short stature.

It was my first time being in SF, so during the day time I was sightseeing SF for the first week and trained in the evening. The next two weeks I spend most of the time training. Afterward, I returned back to NYC and continued with my 7 Star training.

Then around September of 1987 I was again in SF for more training of 8 Step. At that time master James Shyun was invited to Taiwan in December for the Tai Chi tournament. So he was teaching Tai Chi to me and some of the students that were going to Taiwan to participate in the tournament. While in Taiwan, we had the privilege of visiting and paying respect to Grand Master Wei’s grave site. I returned to NYC after the trip to Taiwan.

I moved out to SF in the summer of 1988 hoping to study 8 Step full time. But some times it does not work out the way you want it to. I was having a hard time looking for work to sustain my living expense in SF to continue my 8 Step studies. My master’s brother in-law was very helpful and got me a job working with the company that he works for (7pm-3am (S-Th)). Because of my work schedule I could not participate in the regular class schedule. This is why my Master taught me privately.

Before Dean moved back to Buffalo, my master videotaped me performing the 8 Step forms and his other Tai Chi student the Tai Chi forms. This is for the Dean to reference to for both systems.

My master did teach me a lot of 8 Step because I helped him out doing some minor work with some of his business ventures outside of martial arts. He has not charged me tuition since I moved to SF (No, I did not do his laundry and house work).

Also my master never kicked me out of his house or school. I still have a master/student relationship with him to this day. He has been good to me and I always had the highest respect for him. I moved back to NYC in late fall 1992 while he was away in Taiwan doing business.

Around 1995/1996 (I’m don’t remember the exact date) when he came to NJ to do a seminar, I took him and his student Jack Skutnik to dinner in NYC Chinatown.

My master’s family (wife, son Anthony, daughter Anita, brother and brother in-law) can verify my relationship to my Master and his family. I still keep in touch with his son Anthony via email.

Currently I am not active in martial arts and have no present/future intention of any involvement with 8 Step/7 Star. My present career is in the computer technology field.

There is no secrecy surrounding my relationship with Master Shyun. I am just like all of you that were/are learning 8 Step because it is a great and effective martial art system.

I have left out details which I felt it was unnecessary in this post, but enough for you all to know who I am.

My wish/prayer for all of you is to continue to focus on studying and mastering the martial arts (physical and philosophical) and to keep it alive for future generations.

With great respect to all I end here.

45

ex_8step/Kim,
thank you for your post. Do you remember me? My name is Mike Haley I was originally a student of Dean Economos in Buffalo NY but then moved to SF to live and train directly under Shyun. I have a vidoe of you at the Irving St school with the blue carpet (many years ago) you had on street clothes and wore glasses. it is of you perfroming all 10 sets. Could you please tell us the names of the last 5?

the story Shyun told me of you was that he took you under his wing and while staying at his house found a crumpled up letter addressed to our other shrfu in NYC and shyun never said anything to you but stopped teaching you, for fear you were spying back to your old shrfu. This was the story i heard though I am sure it was embellished to an extent.

however since then shyun said he would never teach all 10 sets to anyone ever again. And has since not. So if you could give us the names of these mystery sets I would deeply appriciate it. thank you …

46

Man, I am so tired of all this secret stuff. Someone teaches you something and you’re supposed to not show it or teach it?

How about use it?

Methinks some ‘masters’ have some serious issues. And he’s not the only one either.

47

Unfortunatly when you have something valuable most people dont just give it away. Not ever for money for money can be made, spent and borrowed, knowledge is power. For with knowledge you can have anything.

48

Whatever my master Shyun has told you regarding me, I know he has his reason at that time. I will personally speak to him on this matter for clarification.

Please speak to my master James Shyun, his senior students, his kung fu brothers or his kung fu brothers’ student for clarification on the names of the forms that you are seeking. I do not have the authority to speak on it nor will I break my teacher/student bond with my master.

I am going to make one recommendation to you. Please do not publicize the internal affairs of any martial art systems whether it is true or false. This does not help to promote the martial system, but only to destroy it. - Kin :slight_smile:

[I]Abandoning gossip, he abstains from gossip; he speaks at the right time, speaks what is fact, speaks on what is good, speaks on the Dhamma and the Discipline; at the right time he speaks such words as are worth recording, reasonable, moderate, and beneficial.

Majjhima-Nikaya
From “365 Buddha: Daily Meditations,” edited by Jeff Schmidt. Reprinted by arrangement with Tarcher/Putnam, a division of Penguin Putnam Inc. [/I]

49

****IT I could care less, but I do want to know about the groundfighting form, or techniques or whatever, since this is the FIRST time I have ever heard of any such thing in Babu Tanglang!!!

Thanks
Jake :slight_smile:

50

Kin Shibo,

Thank you for clarifying the history of your relationship with Shigong. I deeply appreciate your gesture in coming forward in this matter. It is also very exciting for me to now be in touch with someone from the days of old. With your permission, I would like to contact you privately to learn more about our history.

Sincerely,
M.Dasargo

51

Kin, why the secrecy? you said you dont have the authority to say what you have learned? or break the bond you have by naming the forms? I didnt think tyou needed authority to list the names of the sets. I am not asking to teach them just list them.

You say to ask his senior students? there is only 1 of his students senior to me and that is Dean and he doesnt know the names either.

May I ask what kung fu brother you speak of? Shrfu Lin perhaps?

I appriciate your advice and recommendation however much has happened in the ACMAF since the old days. And the “cat” has been let out of the bag many years ago.

I am now to the point in my training that I am trying to sort out Wei’s ba bu from Shyun’s and attempting to reveal what has came from where. Many have helped me sort this out however there has always been curiosity to he last 5 sets and thier origin. Therefore I dont think that by listing the names of these forms is breaking any bond nor taking authority.

I do appriciate you comming forward and clairifying the situation. Just asking for a little help in my clairification. thanks

52

Yes, because it has nothing to do with this post other than its an 8-step story.
I’ll start this as another thread o others can continue their discussion without this thread hijack.
~BTL

53

History and Forms

Shifu Puyot is having trouble posting from his work computer.
Below is a message sent to me by Shifu Puyot:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Puyot
> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 8:44 AM
> To: Michael Dasargo (E-mail)
> Subject: Kung Fu Mag Post
>
> Mike,
>
> I tried to post but again it kicked it out. Could you please post this for
> me on the thread about kin and eight step forms.
>
>
>
> I thought I would try to give some clarification on some of the topics
> that have come up. These are my experiences at the time.
> I remember Dean, Robert, Kin and all the others that were there at the
> time.
>
>
> I learned nine forms from Master Sun over a five year period. Around 1990
> I was back in San Diego and commuting to SF to study. On one of these
> trips I noticed that forms had changed. The way I had learned them was
> not the way they were now being taught to the new students. (techniques
> had been changed) I confronted Master Sun about this in a closed door
> session. What he told me was that he did not trust people and had changed
> some of the material. I was very upset and told him I was out of there.
> He promised he would “teach me right”. The damage had been done, I could
> not trust what I was learning and walked out. We talk and over the years
> we have had dinner on several occasions. I may not agree with the way
> Master Sun does things in business but he did tech me more about
> application than all my other teachers.
>
> Now for the forms:
> 1. Chi Shou
> 2. Siu Fan CHe
> 3. Lee Pee
> 4. Da Fan Che
> 5. Tang lag Shou
> 6. Lan Jit
> 7. Luen huan Jeung
> 8. Jak Yu
> 9. ?
>
> I do not remember the name of the last two sets. I will try to look at my
> old notes.
>
> As for the ground form. master Sun said it was that last form taught in
> the system. I never saw the form but he did tell me he was the only
> person to learn the set from Master Wei. I remember Su Yu Chang going to
> the school one time. When i asked Sun what he was doing in SF he said he
> was trying to learn the ground form from him. He said said Chang was the
> only other person that had the entire system with the exception of the
> ground form.
>
> Jake, you had asked about any other ground forms. My teacher Steve
> Laurette did study with Chan Sao Chung. The monkey king in Hong Kong. I
> learned the three Pek Kwar hand forms and one ground form (Sai Ping Da
> Tong Kuen) The form consisted of rolling, twisat ups, leg locks with your
> legs and sweeping. I think I could still do the form with the help of my
> notes.
>
>
> On a side note: when ever Sun would do a throw in practice, he would
> always finish the enemy with a Chin Na move on the ground.
>
>
> From back in the day,
>
> Tony P

54

There are basically 11. As the last poster indicated.
Continuous palm is not taught in some schools. There are some other forms, but most consider them drills to help with performing the zhai yao forms.

55

Does Zhai Yao(I think I misspelled it)= Young Sparrow form?

Or does Zhai Yao mean something else?

Also,

Does 8 step have the Bung Bo form?

56

Zhai Yao is “essentials” essentially. You are thinking of the Hu Yen forms, both Xiao and Da. More characteristic of Long Fist Mantis.
No, Babu does not have a Bung Bu.

Cheers
Jake