In addition to Brazier Laoshi’s answers:
The Long Tan Si (Dragon Lake Temple) was situated in Shandong Province, and according to history of certain lineages/schools this where the Ten Roads of Tantui were developed, by the monks of Long Tan Temple.
Grandmaster Han Qingtang was the Long Fist teacher of Master Adam Hsu, and father-in-law to Master Liang Ji Ci.
Tanglang Shou is not formally a Babu set, I believe!!?? I think it is grouped either under Qixing (Taiwan style), or Chang CHuan Tanglang. Does Shyun teach it as part of his curriculum? I also noticed in Earth Dragon’s list they included Lanjie, which is nto formally a Babu set either.
Just curious.
Jake 
Hey Jake,
If I’m not mistaken, Tang Lang Shou is Gao Dao Sheng’s creation…and yes, it is included in at least Xun’s old list. It would be interesting to put a filter on 8 Step and isolate those sets which truly epitomize the system. The big question is…why so many sets? Are 10 sets necessary? Could an advanced boxer isolate 3 sets and maintain the integrity of the system? That being said, what would most consider the “core sets”? ie…8 Step without the beginner/foundation sets. With 7 Star/Plum Blossom, some people say it’s Beng Bu, Lan Jie, Ba Zhou…
Mike
ED,
I have seen Shyun do 10 ten tuei(10 coordinations) on his published vid.
Why he teaches this I do not know. That is his thing.
Since it is probably the most widely practiced set in the world there are many variations.
Laviathan,
Thanks for the clarification!
Tang Lang Shou is Wang Songting’s form.
Gao Daosheng was Wang’s student.
It is important to note that there is another form called Tang lang Shou that is not widely known. Not from Wei, not from Gao.
It is a 2 person set similar to Pai an but somewhat longer with more kicks and hand methods.
It has been said to me by students of Wei that his most important set was Zhai Yao1st rd.
Maybe not all will agree, but it is an important set in PM with the very useful fighitng techniques.
Infact, if you leanrt only one set, regardless your branch of PM, this is it(my opinion).
Kevin
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for the insight! That piece of information makes a huge impact. I will ask my Sifu if we can compare the version of Tang Lang Shou with others in attempt to investigate why it is included in the list.
Also, thank you for the insight into Zhai Yao. The set seems to encapsulate the the evolved stepping patterns unique to 8 Step. Out of curiosity, are there any notes pertaining to the era in which the Zhai Yao set was created?
Mike
Hi Mike,
So it is clear that Tang Lang Shou is nothis creation, but a form he teaches that he learned from Wang Songting.
It is a popular well known form.
There are aspects of this form that make it similar to the TJPM style of Zhao Zhuxi. Some time I will go into these.
8 Step Zhai Yao is recognizable as the 1st Zhai Yao, but there are some large differences I notice a`on watching that version of the form.
Although people make a big deal of the stepping of 8 step as if it is different from other PM styles it is hard for me to agree.
I have seen the same stepping styles in every branch of PM(except 6 Harmony which I have not studied).
Some emphasize this step over that, but all the steps are there.
Within the old sonnet of PM it goes into explanation of these types of steps in a colorful sort of language.
When Zhai Yao was created I can not say.
It “seems” as though it is a little over 100 years old. Likely made from older version of PM, but who is to say?
There are some old manuscripts which go into extensive detail of the zhai yao forms among other forms and details.
Very similar to WHF published works, but a bit older and unpublished, and therefore still in a state of secrecy.
I just love this board. For no other reason then to delve deeper into the endless information well.
it is interesting the insight and knowledge/information that so many have here. I have learned so much about mantis on this board, I cant even beign to tell you.
I have studied it for little over 16 years and stilll everyday learn more… hence the the quote in my sig.
so in everyones opinnon what would you say the represents the best kuen flavor of ba bu?
xiao fan che? da? lipi?
do other sets emphasize the stomping like they do in 8 step? and are other mantis styles focused on the footwork perfromed in the sets as much?
Well for sure, certain places in bung bo…at least in our version. Also, I was told “bung bo” means crushing step…
Just want to confirm of what Kevin said from our side.
> So it is clear that Tang Lang Shou is nothis creation, but a form he teaches that
> he learned from Wang Songting.
> It is a popular well known form.
Yes, we have that form too. that also came form GM Wang Songting. It is well know form. Some people also called it Tang Lang Quan, using Quan instead of Sou.
> It “seems” as though it is a little over 100 years old. Likely made from older
> version of PM, but who is to say?
Yes, GM Wang’s Seven Star PM also has Zai Yiao. I believe it has two routines. From what I unerstand. Zai Yiao is a coolection of the moves that represent PM flavor the most. That is exactly what the Chiense name Zai Yiao means, the collection of the importants. The forms have been in PM for a long time, definitely more than 100 years old.
Cheers,
Mantis Footwork
I am in agreement with Kevin on the footwork observations. I believe that the flavor (heavy, light, straight, angle, high frame, low frame, etc..) of the footwork may vary greatly from style to style but the steps’ technical components should remain the same otherwise any type of footwork can be liberally qualify as mantis footwork. In that case, why do we even need to discern on distinctive mantis footwork from other systems?
As for the difference between Liuhe’s and Meihwa lines footwork, there is perhaps a philosophical split in the approach of teaching mantis that caused the difference IMHO. It would seem that Liuhe was emerging as an innovative fighting style that combines Liuhe Men and Tanglang quan and it focuses on mainly 2 stances (rooster and great ape); while, Meihwa/Taiji adhere to a more traditional approach of Quan Gong He Yi (form and conditioning being one) capitalizes on the full capacity of the 8 stances.
Regarding Bengbu (Crash and Fill), I think it’s an interesting form in that it has many innovations on many levels ever since it’s debut in Yantai city in the late 1800s. Personally, I believe this is the one form that herolded in the proliferation of Tanglang forms. BTW straightly personal opinion, I do not subcribe to the notion that Bung Bo (the rear legged stomp) is the reason the form is thus named. The technique would be one of the innovations that possibly came from the 7 Star side of things IMHO.
Mantis108
does anyone remember the scan that was posted here a while ago that was said to be ‘meihua footwork’?
I just pulled it up as I am going over the first road of Ba Kui (sp?) that Master Shi taught in Tampa last year and it is a meihua set and I remembered I had saved that scan.
I’ve got it at home and will repost if no one else has it.
It had 3 diagrams on it a ‘V’ , a ‘Z’ type pattern and a pattern of 5 dots like the ‘5’ on a normal die with a 6th dot on a tangent off one corner spot.
the first three movements of Ba Kui definitely do a zig zag.
did anyone have a translation of the chinese writing on that page?
In regards to Tang Lang Shou:
Thank you for the clarification. I apologize for any ignorance on my part that may have offended others. I deeply appreciate the insight.
In regards to Footowork:
It is difficult for me to agree that there is no difference in footwork. I understand that there are commonalities since we are all within the same family, however I may be confused between stances vs. stepping.
Here’s my understanding:
All divisions share the same stances but differ in footwork. It is to my limited knowledge that stepping differs in the timing, momentum, and execution of stepping patterns (meaning the linking movements between stances). Whether the difference is determined by skill or division, I am currently unsure. What I do know is that changes in posture (high frame vs. low frame, straight vs. angle etc.) changes the weight management, and thus changes the intent and momentum of execution. Mass x Acceleration = force. The more bend, the slower the technique, but the more mass is moved. The less the bend. the faster the technique, and mass is moved when the feet leave it’s root.
My confusion:
If 8 Step footwork is not unique to 8 Step, then what is the premise behind it’s development? Is the 60/40 stances and the jing not determined by how the feet position itself in relation to the opponent? Are the differences in stances not a reflection of the difference in execution?
I hope that we may get together soon to play with the feel of the techniques. I tend to learn more efficiently through drills than through words. Again, I apologize for my ignorance. I am grateful for all opinions and insights.
M.
Kevin
A little help please. You mention that Tanglang Shou comes from Changchuan Tanglang. Is this the same Tanglang Shou Wutan teaches? I have a chinese book (sorry I cannot translate the authors name, my chinese is Bu hao :o ) that has this set in it, but the book is Qixing Tanglang. As well Yang Shu Ton has told me this set is Qixing, and he mentions on his tape that it is Qixing from Master Li??? If they mean Li Shu Wen, then someone got confused somewhere. It does not look Qixing-ish to me, but as we all know Qixing (or at least the terminology) on Taiwan is goofy to say the least.
It makes more sense to me that it is Changchuan, since many of the movments are represenative of that system, but I have never been able to get a concrete answer.
Any insight?
Thanks
Jake
OH…I guess he could have meant Li Kun Shan eh? Duh! 
Jake 
Hi Michael Dasargo,
<<It is difficult for me to agree that there is no difference in footwork.>>
This hard to answer.
You are right. But then again, people interpret the same things differently.
Hopefully we can meet up in person and have a productive discussion.
<< It is to my limited knowledge that stepping differs in the timing, momentum, and execution of stepping patterns (meaning the linking movements between stances).>>
Yes.
<<If 8 Step footwork is not unique to 8 Step, then what is the premise behind it’s development? >>
I won’t answer this, I hope you don’t mind.
I am saying that the steps I see in 8 STep I see elsewhere.
8 Step has a different emphasis.
<<I hope that we may get together soon to play with the feel of the techniques.>>
Sounds like a plan
<< I tend to learn more efficiently through drills than through words. >>
Yes. We have entered a discusion hard to discuss with words alone.
Kevin
Hi Jake,
I did not say Chang Chuan Tang Lang.
To me that implies a recent blending of the two styles.
I don’t think that happened in the case of Gao Daosheng’s Mantis.
The tang Lang Shou that starts with “right hand snatches eyes” with both feet together.
I have inclosed a picture for you to confirm.
If this is the book you have I suggest you don’t anyhting in it as the truth.
This book says that 7 Hands was a creation of Su Yuzhang.
It says that Li Kunshan was a master of 7*.
It says…
This set was taught by Wang Songting to Gao Daosheng aqnd other students of Wang Songting.
It was not taught by Li Kunshan.
Li Kunshan has left behind his own handwritten manuscripts of his style, his fighting and especially his weapon fighting methodology.
Why do Su’s students not acknowlege Gao(no need to answer)?
The set is not 7*. It bears little resemblance to 7*.
It has characteristics of Meihua and Taiji PM.
To me this means:
Not saying lou is absent in 7*, just that this form uses it more often.
As for any move in this form representing Long fist. I do not see 2 moves in a row that represent longfist as it is popularly taught.
This is definetly debatable, but you see a predominance, about 100%, of Mantis combinations.
Chang Chuan Tang Lang.
I should mention that the name of Gao Daosheng’s org is CCTL. For why this is so there is an excellent description on The Mantis Cave.
The pics
1.beng chuei to the left palm. Uncommon in 7*.
common in TJPM to throw out the right forearm elbow, apply tou zhan(steal open) and finish with right elbow.
His next move is to step forward and strike with the right elbow.
This is doing tou zhan pan zhou(steal open coiling elbow).
or tou zhan dieh zhou(steal open folding elbow).
dieh zhou(folding elbow)
In TJPM and Meihua often done by hopping up onto single leg stance.
These are common characteristics of mei hau and Taiji PM.
Not common in 8 Step, or 7* or 6 harmony
Kevin
Kevin
Yup thats the one! I never thought it looked like Longfist either, but as you know in the Wutan it is sometimes hard to get a straight answer as to origins of forms and what not.
I agree with all your criticisms, and to wrap up we are unsure of the origins of this set yes?
Thanks
Jake
Hi Jake,
The history of Tang Lang Shou starts with Wang Songting. Before that no info is avilable.
Maybe Ilya found something in China.
Kevin
Hi Kevin,
Sounds good! I’ll contact you privately for further details.
Hope all is well,
Mike